Mashing 1qt/lb of grain - will this be OK?

[Norselord]

I have been getting about 50% brewhouse efficiency on my first two all grain batches. I need to improve this, and i will; at a later date.

I have been using 1.25qt/lb and getting about 60% mash efficiency (ph = 5.4, hitting mash temp dead on, and getting a good mix; i.e. no dough balls)

Since I have been adjusting my grain bill to account for my poor efficiency, i have been hitting all gravity readings.

I don't want this post to be about improving mash efficiency. I will work on that later.

--------------------------

For my next brew I want to do a Scottish Ale that has an OG of 1.087 or so. This entails the use of the following grain bill:

13 lbs Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM)
11 lbs Pale Malt (2 Row) UK (3.0 SRM)
1 lbs Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM)
8.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM)
4.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM)
4.0 oz Peat Smoked Malt (2.8 SRM)
4.0 oz Roasted Barley (300.0 SRM)​

This is 27.25lbs of grain. My mash tun is a 10gallon igloo. If I mash with 1.25qt/lb i will be near the very tippy top of my mash tun with very little head space.

Can I go down to 1t/lb of grain or will i get even more inefficient?

 

[Denny]

Sure, although your efficiency will likely go down. FWIW, I found that using a thinner mash increased my efficiency.

 

[Norselord]

Sure, although your efficiency will likely go down. FWIW, I found that using a thinner mash increased my efficiency.

Thanks for your response - the volume limitations on my mash tun are driving the lower water/grist ratio, which is necessitated by low brew house efficiency.

I have read Beersmith's 5 ways to improve your efficiency.

The 1st point says to improve your mill - i had it done by MoreBeer, i assume they do a decent job.

The 2nd point says to mash out/sparge with hot water. I consistently do this between 168 and 170F. I do batch sparge like this: Add water to bring temp up to 168, vorlauf, drain the entire mash tun, add 1/2 of remaining sparge water (as calculated by BeerSmith), stir, vorlauf, drain, add remaining sparge water(as calculated by BeerSmith), stir, vorlauf, and drain.

The 3rd point is to sparge slowly. Each sparge i do takes about 30 minutes, including vorlauf.

Point 4 is to minimize losses in the system. If i knew where/what those are, i would.

Point 5 is to choose a properly designed mash tun. This is a standard HD Igloo 10 gallon cylindrically shaped cooler.

Any help is appreciated here.

 

[Biscuits]

Have you considered just scaling back the size of the batch? Instead of doing a 5.5 Gallon batch, why not take it back a gallon or so?

Doing a 4 or 4.25 gallon batch will allow you the extra space to accommodate the thinner mash. I plugged this into my spreadsheet and with my system, if I were to do a full volume BIAB with no sparge the grain bill is already at 1.41 Qt/lb.

 

[RM-MN]

Thanks for your response - the volume limitations on my mash tun are driving the lower water/grist ratio, which is necessitated by low brew house efficiency.

I have read Beersmith's 5 ways to improve your efficiency.

The 1st point says to improve your mill - i had it done by MoreBeer, i assume they do a decent job.

The 2nd point says to mash out/sparge with hot water. I consistently do this between 168 and 170F. I do batch sparge like this: Add water to bring temp up to 168, vorlauf, drain the entire mash tun, add 1/2 of remaining sparge water (as calculated by BeerSmith), stir, vorlauf, drain, add remaining sparge water(as calculated by BeerSmith), stir, vorlauf, and drain.

The 3rd point is to sparge slowly. Each sparge i do takes about 30 minutes, including vorlauf.

Point 4 is to minimize losses in the system. If i knew where/what those are, i would.

Point 5 is to choose a properly designed mash tun. This is a standard HD Igloo 10 gallon cylindrically shaped cooler.

Any help is appreciated here.

1. This is a big assumption. The only way to be sure is to compare it to the milling you do yourself. Most sellers who mill grain are milling to keep their customers from complaining about the grain milling causing a stuck sparge, not maximum efficiency.

2. If your grain is milled properly, a mash out or hot sparge isn't necessary because all conversion will be complete before you start to sparge. I sparge with cold water. My brewhouse efficiency exceeds 80%.

3. Batch sparging can be done quickly as all you are doing is rinsing out sugars that are already dissolved.

4. Dump everything into the fermenter. Any wort still in your mash tun is wasted efficiency. Any left in the boil kettle is wasted efficiency. Any left in the mash is wasted efficiency. The yeast will sort out what is fermentable, the hops and break material will settle out first and be covered by the yeast. Rack above this when bottling, leaving as little behind as you can without sucking up lots of the trub.

5. You have as good a mash tun as you need.

6. If you line that mash tun with a bag, you can mill the grains finer, causing your conversion efficiency to go up and the time for conversion to go down. When the mash is done, lift the bag of grains and support it, either on a rack, colander, or by using a rope and pulley system to get as much wort out as you can. When you discard the grains, dump any wort trapped in the mash tun into the boil kettle.

 

[dmtaylor]

Efficiency problems are nearly always because of inadequate crush. MoreBeer is a great company, however I'll bet the quality of their milling of the grains sucks butt. I don't know if I've ever heard of a homebrew shop that mills their grains very well. What's in it for them? Less grain sold and more complaints of stuck sparges? Nah, they'll all pass on those things.

If they milled the grains separately (unlikely), I would ditch the Crystal 10 and the peat smoked malt. Those are not necessary ingredients for this beer style. Peat smoked is especially poo-pooed in the latest revision of the BJCP Guidelines.

In any case, plan for 50% efficiency. This is a big beer. It's not easy to get high efficiency with big beers. Maybe next time do a 1.045 beer and see how that helps your efficiency in the opposite direction.

And a big +1 to everything else that RM-MN said above.

 

[Denny]

Thanks for your response - the volume limitations on my mash tun are driving the lower water/grist ratio, which is necessitated by low brew house efficiency.

I have read Beersmith's 5 ways to improve your efficiency.

The 1st point says to improve your mill - i had it done by MoreBeer, i assume they do a decent job.

The 2nd point says to mash out/sparge with hot water. I consistently do this between 168 and 170F. I do batch sparge like this: Add water to bring temp up to 168, vorlauf, drain the entire mash tun, add 1/2 of remaining sparge water (as calculated by BeerSmith), stir, vorlauf, drain, add remaining sparge water(as calculated by BeerSmith), stir, vorlauf, and drain.

The 3rd point is to sparge slowly. Each sparge i do takes about 30 minutes, including vorlauf.

Point 4 is to minimize losses in the system. If i knew where/what those are, i would.

Point 5 is to choose a properly designed mash tun. This is a standard HD Igloo 10 gallon cylindrically shaped cooler.

Any help is appreciated here.

1. don't assume that
2. you're working way too hard for little to no gain...drain the mash tune, add all your sparge water at 190F at once. Unless your tun is too small to fit it all at once.
3. nope...not in batch sparging. It's becasue you're draining the sugar, not rinsing it like fly sparging. To get 7.5 -8 gal. of wort in the kettle takes me 15 min. tops to drain the mash, stir in the sparge water and drain the sparge. I average 83% efficiency. This is something I have tested MANY times
4. meaning look for wort left behind, say if you had a false bottom. Doesn't sound applicable to you
5. again, in batch sparging it doesn't matter. I prefer a rectangular cooler because the larger opening makes it easier to stir. I use 48, 70, or 152 qt. rectangular cooler depending on batch size.

 

[Yesfan]

Could you partial mash? Just mash the Maris Otter and 2 row, then after collecting the wort, steep the other grains like you would an extract kit. The MO and 2 row is 24 lbs total, so that may still push it depending on your grist/water ratio.

 

[Steveruch]

Could you partial mash? Just mash the Maris Otter and 2 row, then after collecting the wort, steep the other grains like you would an extract kit. The MO and 2 row is 24 lbs total, so that may still push it depending on your grist/water ratio.

That was my first thought.
Or you could use a bit less grain and add a bit of extract at the end of the boil.

 

[jmos]

+1 on most of what was said above.

Another option if you want to keep the batch size the same is to sub some DME (late in the boil) for base grain. You can mash thinner and still hit the volume and OG you're looking for. Not exactly the same, but I doubt you'll notice a pound or two of DME.

 

[Norselord]

I put 30Q of strike water in with 25lbs of grain. My pre-boil gravity was 1.065. I did a 90 minute boil and ended up with 1.087 OG. Everything worked out fine.

Thanks for the advice.

 

[Norselord]

I put 30Q of strike water in with 25lbs of grain. My pre-boil gravity was 1.065. I did a 90 minute boil and ended up with 1.087 OG. Everything worked out fine.

Thanks for the advice.

The mash tun was very very full, i won't be doing a high gravity beer again until i can improve my efficiency.

The stopper blew off my fermenter a handful of times, but my blow-off hose sounds like a 70's era V8 at idle in the pitcher of star-san solution.

I have an adhesive strip style temperature readout thingamajigger and it read 70F, although i had the fermentation chamber set to 66F. Put a thermometer in the pitcher of star san and another temp probe also - turns out the fermentation is raising the beer by 4F over ambient.

 

[jmos]

During active fermentation the wort temperature can be more than 4 degrees above ambient. It sounds like you have a fermentation chamber, so try taping the temperature probe onto the fermenter under some insulation (I use a couple of folded up paper towels and blue painters tape.) You'll get a better measurement of the wort temperature. You're fridge will run more, but you'll keep the wort much closer to target.

 

[Norselord]

During active fermentation the wort temperature can be more than 4 degrees above ambient. It sounds like you have a fermentation chamber, so try taping the temperature probe onto the fermenter under some insulation (I use a couple of folded up paper towels and blue painters tape.) You'll get a better measurement of the wort temperature. You're fridge will run more, but you'll keep the wort much closer to target.

It is the tape/sticker type temperature sensor - it is black but changes color depending on temperature

 

[RM-MN]

It is the tape/sticker type temperature sensor - it is black but changes color depending on temperature

The two of you are talking about different things. Your "temperature sensor" is a stick on thermometer. His "temperature sensor" is the controller sensor if you use a refrigerator or freezer to control the fermentation temperatures. You mention setting your fermentation chamber at 66 degrees. What controls the temperature? If it is an external control unit with a remote sensor, that sensor should be attached to the fermentation vessel and insulated from the rest of the chamber by some kind of insulation. You want to control the temperature of the fermenting beer, not the air in the chamber.

 

[jmos]

When you said you set the chamber at 66 I assumed you were using a controller; my bad. My advice would be to get a controller, and not rely on the controller built into the refrigerator itself. A separate controller like this one is fairly inexpensive, and does a much better job controlling the wort temperature. It's the one I use and it's really simple to operate. It can also control a warming element which really allows you to dial in the profile you want. There are fancier one out there too, depending on what features you want.

 

[Norselord]

When you said you set the chamber at 66 I assumed you were using a controller; my bad. My advice would be to get a controller, and not rely on the controller built into the refrigerator itself. A separate controller like this one is fairly inexpensive, and does a much better job controlling the wort temperature. It's the one I use and it's really simple to operate. It can also control a warming element which really allows you to dial in the profile you want. There are fancier one out there too, depending on what features you want.

I have two refrigerators with the temperature controllers you describe. I have a heating pad hooked to it.

There are TWO temperature sensors, my RTD probe for the controller, and also a stick-on temperature sensor.

The ambient air of the refrigerator and the surface of the fermentor were showing two different values.

I should attach the RTD to the vessel - lesson learned.

 

[Norselord]

Update:
OG was 1.089 according to my calibrated refractometer.

After 6 days in the fermenter (aerated with aeration pump, hepa filter, aeration stone then pitched 3 pouches of Wyeast Scottish ale) the current gravity is 1.011 @ 68F

BeerSmith tells me that this is 10.5% ABV - where did I mess up?

The beer tastes hot, it has some nice malt complexity, and i think i can taste some sweetness. This will likely drop another 2-4 points in gravity.
The beer still

 

[Denny]

I'm not sure I'd want an 1.089 beer to drop any further.

 

[str1p3s]

I ordered from MoreBeer.com and my efficiency was terrible compared to what I normally get. A quick google search told me that this is not uncommon. I went to my lhbs and milled the grains for my next batch and was back to normal. I will only order from MoreBeer from now on if I get my own mill.

 

[dwhite60]

Always wondered if homebrew stores do a crappy crush because they know they'll sell you more grain.

Just sayin'

My mill is set at 0.024" (0.6mm) and I almost always hit 75 to 80 percent efficiency. I condition my grain before it goes through the mill.

All the Best,
D. White

 

[dmtaylor]

Update:
OG was 1.089 according to my calibrated refractometer.

After 6 days in the fermenter (aerated with aeration pump, hepa filter, aeration stone then pitched 3 pouches of Wyeast Scottish ale) the current gravity is 1.011 @ 68F

BeerSmith tells me that this is 10.5% ABV - where did I mess up?

The beer tastes hot, it has some nice malt complexity, and i think i can taste some sweetness. This will likely drop another 2-4 points in gravity.
The beer still

Fermented way too warm. It was like 70 F, right? I would have gone for like 62-64 F. But of course, with such a huge OG, you were going to get some warm alcohol no matter what anyway. You'll need to age this sucker for a year before it gets really good.

 

[Norselord]

Fermented way too warm. It was like 70 F, right? I would have gone for like 62-64 F. But of course, with such a huge OG, you were going to get some warm alcohol no matter what anyway. You'll need to age this sucker for a year before it gets really good.

I was trying to go for 66F. But I made the mistake of having my temperature probe reading the ambient air inside my fridge/fermentation chamber, instead of having it attached to the surface of fermentation vessel.

The alcohol isn't bad - it is warming. I suspect that this will actually be a pretty tasty sipping beer after it has aged for a bit. I'm wondering if I should age it with some wood or not. Can i age it in a keg with wood chips?

 

[dmtaylor]

The alcohol isn't bad - it is warming. I suspect that this will actually be a pretty tasty sipping beer after it has aged for a bit. I'm wondering if I should age it with some wood or not. Can i age it in a keg with wood chips?

Sure! I'd recommend oak, sanitized in boiling water for ~10 minutes. I've run into contamination problems when not sanitizing the wood. But yeah, if you're going to age it anyway, go ahead with the wood.

 

[Denny]

Always wondered if homebrew stores do a crappy crush because they know they'll sell you more grain.

Just sayin'

My mill is set at 0.024" (0.6mm) and I almost always hit 75 to 80 percent efficiency. I condition my grain before it goes through the mill.

All the Best,
D. White

No, they do a crappy job becasue they have to make sure that their customers don't have issues like a stuck runoff.

 

[dmtaylor]

No, they do a crappy job becasue they have to make sure that their customers don't have issues like a stuck runoff.

 

[Norselord]

Sure! I'd recommend oak, sanitized in boiling water for ~10 minutes. I've run into contamination problems when not sanitizing the wood. But yeah, if you're going to age it anyway, go ahead with the wood.

Chips, spirals, cubes, honeycombs?

Does this really need to age for 1 year?

 

[Denny]

Of course, I don't have inside info on ulterior motives like some people do , but I'm not worried that any of the homebrew shops I regularly do business with would have that attitude.