Mash pH

[rhys333]

I am curious now about how no sparge BIAB'er are effected by this? I mean, by treating all of my liquor and targeting a mash pH of 5.4 (or whatever), typically the kettle pH will start out the same. Should the pH in the kettle then be adjusted? I have read through this thread and I am still not understanding what the target kettle pH should be and at what temperature.

Your mash pH is the critical measurement, 5.4 RT or there abouts. You're fine adding all the minerals to the mash as long as the estimated pH doesn't drop below the desired range. If it does, then you reserve a portion of the minerals and add to the kettle.

 

[gifty74]

Also 0.5 ml 88% Lactic acid to mash only.

Great feedback. So when did you check mash pH (how much time into it after dough-in), what temp was it when you took the reading, and how much did the .5ml of lactic reduce it?

I ask because I brewed a DIPA, and used 17g of gypsum for 10.5 gal of water. My water is relatively soft, so beersmith said my sulfates should be near 250, and Ca around 125 (chloride around 60). I have 85% phosphoric acid, and 5 mins after dough-in I checked pH and it was 5.7 at room temp. I added 2.5ml of my acid and only brought it down to 5.6 (this was probably 10-12 min into mash). Added another 2.5ml of acid, and brought it down too much. Room temp pH was around 5.3, was shooting for 5.4-5.5. BK pH was ok though at 5.4, so not sure how much of an impact the over addition of phosphoric acid will have, but hopefully not much. The grains also start to get soaked into solution and help buffer as well, so taking readings on the fly is helpful, but can lead to some misdirection as well, as was the case with my session. Next batch with similar malt bill I'll be adding 3.5ml of acid and it should be right at 5.5 at room temp (5.2 in the mash).

I did get an email back from John Kimmich (who's adamant about the 5.1-5.3 pH range at mash temps) and he said the best method is trial & error, and keep brewing a recipe over and over until you nail it. He said that it's important to get the pH right from the start as most conversion happens in the first 5 min and you want the pH to be 5.2 while that is happening.

Bottom line is I took great notes, and know the grain bill and my source water so I should be able to better tweak on this next batch.

Oh, and Kimmich also thinks food grade lactic acid is the best one to use for acidification. He said he hardens with gypsum and acidifies with lactic.

 

[rhys333]

Great feedback. So when did you check mash pH (how much time into it after dough-in), what temp was it when you took the reading, and how much did the .5ml of lactic reduce it?

I'm brewing without a safety line... no pH meter. My taste buds will provide the answers.

 

[Biscuits]

Your mash pH is the critical measurement, 5.4 RT or there abouts. You're fine adding all the minerals to the mash as long as the estimated pH doesn't drop below the desired range. If it does, then you reserve a portion of the minerals and add to the kettle.

I have a decent grasp on mash pH but what I am concerned with is kettle pH. Am I sane in reasoning that if my mash pH is in the acceptable range that my kettle pH will then too be acceptable? I am curious because where traditionally a brewer would get their mash pH in range and then sparge with water that is treated differently or not at all, that maybe treating all of my brewing liquor the same puts me at a disadvantage.

 

[gifty74]

I am curious because where traditionally a brewer would get their mash pH in range and then sparge with water that is treated differently or not at all, that maybe treating all of my brewing liquor the same puts me at a disadvantage.

Straight from my email from John Kimmich...

"You should be treating the entirety of you brew water before you mash in. Most of the starch conversion happens in the first 5 minutes, so it's important to nail it. Trial and error is best. Stick with one recipe until you nail it. Adding acid after the fact is not desirable for the reasons you mentioned. Food grade lactic is a much better option imo.

John Kimmich"

 

[rhys333]

I have a decent grasp on mash pH but what I am concerned with is kettle pH. Am I sane in reasoning that if my mash pH is in the acceptable range that my kettle pH will then too be acceptable? I am curious because where traditionally a brewer would get their mash pH in range and then sparge with water that is treated differently or not at all, that maybe treating all of my brewing liquor the same puts me at a disadvantage.

Why are you concerned with kettle pH? As long as mash pH has been figured out, the boil and fermentation process will take things from there to ensure the beer ends up in the desired pH range, which I understand is somewhere around 4.

 

[Biscuits]

Why are you concerned with kettle pH? As long as mash pH has been figured out, the boil and fermentation process will take things from there to ensure the beer ends up in the desired pH range, which I understand is somewhere around 4.

Because it seems to be of some concern to professional brewers...and considering the slight differences in homebrewing methods I thought there might be some effect from that. I don't like to just assume.

 

[rhys333]

Because it seems to be of some concern to professional brewers...and considering the slight differences in homebrewing methods I thought there might be some effect from that. I don't like to just assume.

I haven't noticed any issues, but valid concern. Perhaps one of the brew science specialists can advise.

 

[rhys333]

He said that it's important to get the pH right from the start as most conversion happens in the first 5 min and you want the pH to be 5.2 while that is happening.

Bottom line is I took great notes, and know the grain bill and my source water so I should be able to better tweak on this next batch.

I'm no expert, but that makes a lot of sense to me.

 

[SpeedYellow]

Straight from my email from John Kimmich...

"You should be treating the entirety of you brew water before you mash in. Most of the starch conversion happens in the first 5 minutes, so it's important to nail it. Trial and error is best. Stick with one recipe until you nail it. Adding acid after the fact is not desirable for the reasons you mentioned. Food grade lactic is a much better option imo.

John Kimmich"

What does starch conversion during the first 5 minutes have to do with beer flavor? Let's just assume that mash pH is super important for best flavor (however defined) -- but who's to say that the first 5 minutes matters? Let's say you botch initial pH but fix it at 10-minutes in. Is there *any* evidence you'll have a different beer than one where you nailed it at dough-in?

Sounds like he found a winning formula but is speculating as to what makes it a winner. Which we all do to some extent.

 

[gifty74]

What does starch conversion during the first 5 minutes have to do with beer flavor? Let's just assume that mash pH is super important for best flavor (however defined) -- but who's to say that the first 5 minutes matters? Let's say you botch initial pH but fix it at 10-minutes in. Is there *any* evidence you'll have a different beer than one where you nailed it at dough-in?

Sounds like he found a winning formula but is speculating as to what makes it a winner. Which we all do to some extent.

My guess is he is referring to it in relation to efficiency. Being a production brewery they I'm sure want it at 5.2 when the conversion happens, to maximize conversion. But on our scale, like you say, why would it matter?

And I'm also thinking that by now he would know what makes it the winning formula it is, and what makes it not.

 

[rhys333]

What does starch conversion during the first 5 minutes have to do with beer flavor? Let's just assume that mash pH is super important for best flavor (however defined) -- but who's to say that the first 5 minutes matters? Let's say you botch initial pH but fix it at 10-minutes in. Is there *any* evidence you'll have a different beer than one where you nailed it at dough-in?

Sounds like he found a winning formula but is speculating as to what makes it a winner. Which we all do to some extent.

I don't know if its 5, 10 or 15 minutes, but I think it's reasonable to assume that if pH is too high, tannin extraction will start a short time after the water hits the grain. I've always believed that if the pH is out of whack to begin with, then testing it at 15-20 minutes and then spending another few minutes correcting the pH is like closing the stable door after the horse has bolted. It's still great information thought because it lets you make adjustments the next time you brew the same recipe (or other ones if you pH tends to be off by a predictable amount).

 

[SpeedYellow]

...I've always believed that if the pH is out of whack to begin with, then testing it at 15-20 minutes and then spending another few minutes correcting the pH is like closing the stable door after the horse has bolted..

That's my operating assumption too, but I recognize it's total speculation. It could be completely wrong, and would be fairly easy to test.

And I'm only referring to the impact on flavor, since I care not a whit about efficiency.

 

[masonsjax]

If certain enzymes are more efficiently breaking down complex carbohydrates at a particular pH, I would say yes, that could affect the flavor. It's not like you can reverse enzymatic activity and put the unfermentables back in. With these ultra modified malts we get these days, it may be a matter of seconds to get it right rather than minutes even.

 

[mabrungard]

Recognize that "mash temp" was mentioned the brewer's recommendation. That is generally in line with a recommendation of 5.3 to 5.5 when measured at room temp. However, for those of us that like their equipment to last longer, measuring at room temp is smarter.

 

[rhys333]

I brewed a Rye Saison yesterday with the grist info and mineral additions shown below. I estimated room-temp mash pH using three different calculators: Bru'n = 5.37, Brewers Friend = 5.57, EZ = 5.59. I went with Bru'n on this one and I'm interested to see how it turns out due to variance of ~0.2 pH value. I observed fast and efficient mash conversion. Also achieved better than expected brewhouse efficiency at 76%. Due to rye inclusion and dunk sparge without squeezing I expected low 70s at best.

RYE SAISON
82% - 3.3 kg (7.3lb) 2 Row 1.75L
10% - 0.4 kg (0.88lb) Rye 3.5L
7% - 0.29 kg (0.64lb) Munich 12L
1% - 0.04 kg (0.09lb) Black Patent 525L

- Mash water: 11.36L (3 gal), Sparge 15.1L (4 gal).
- Used 100% RO (Ca:1; Na:8; SO4:1; Cl:4, bicarb:16) and treated ALL water at 0.18 g/L Gypsum + 0.13 g/L CaCl2. Also 0.5 ml 88% Lactic acid to mash only. Spreadsheets disagree on final mineral concentration, but Bru'n estimates Ca: 89; SO4: 100; Cl: 83.

This is my first time treating sparge water and going with the lower estimate (i.e.: adding less acid: 0.5ml instead of 2.7ml). All went well and it will be interesting to see how this turns out!

Further on my post above...
Tasted the gravity sample after 6 days in primary. Hot yet, but otherwise clean and zero astringency. This is interesting. Usually I treat mash water only and sparge with straight RO. Because I added lower than normal amount of acid, prior experience had me expecting harsh astringency. I suspect treating sparge water has made the difference. Anyway, looking good so far and I look forward to tasting it again after conditioning.