Mash PH with RO water

[briggssteel]

Hey all,

I know the beginner water questions have to get really old but I know this is the place to ask them. My question is concerning mash ph brewing with RO water. In the past I've used RO water and have just added a teaspoon of calcium chloride in the mash or a teaspoon of gypsum for hoppy beers. I'd like to start paying more attention to mash ph. I'm brewing a hefeweizen next with only pilsner and wheat malt. The batch will be a total of 11 pounds at a 1.33 mash ratio collecting 7 gallons for 6 gallons post boil. I don't know the ph of the RO water, but I assume it comes in around 7.0. My plan was to mash in with a tablespoon of calcium chloride, take a ph reading, and adjust down accordingly. My question is would using more calcium chloride work to drop the ph or would I need to use lactic acid? I was playing around with Bru'n water and it said I would need the equivalent of 3 teaspoons (I think it was originally in grams per gallon) to get in the ballpark of the 5.4 mash ph I'm shooting for. Admittedly though I don't think I fully understand the parameters so I probably filled something out incorrectly.

I guess the bottom line question is that using RO water and my very light grain bill, should I use calcium chloride or lactic acid to get the ph to my target of 5.4 and if anyone could tell off the top of their head, what sort of addition sizes am I looking at for one of the other. My goal is to get a nice, set water addition formula that I'll be able to consistently use for light beers. I think that'll give me a great starting point. As for darker beers, I'll probably try to use pickling lime, although that's another topic for another day.

Thanks in advance guys.

 

[Yooper]

Hey all,

I know the beginner water questions have to get really old but I know this is the place to ask them. My question is concerning mash ph brewing with RO water. In the past I've used RO water and have just added a teaspoon of calcium chloride in the mash or a teaspoon of gypsum for hoppy beers. I'd like to start paying more attention to mash ph. I'm brewing a hefeweizen next with only pilsner and wheat malt. The batch will be a total of 11 pounds at a 1.33 mash ratio collecting 7 gallons for 6 gallons post boil. I don't know the ph of the RO water, but I assume it comes in around 7.0. My plan was to mash in with a tablespoon of calcium chloride, take a ph reading, and adjust down accordingly. My question is would using more calcium chloride work to drop the ph or would I need to use lactic acid? I was playing around with Bru'n water and it said I would need the equivalent of 3 teaspoons (I think it was originally in grams per gallon) to get in the ballpark of the 5.4 mash ph I'm shooting for. Admittedly though I don't think I fully understand the parameters so I probably filled something out incorrectly.

I guess the bottom line question is that using RO water and my very light grain bill, should I use calcium chloride or lactic acid to get the ph to my target of 5.4 and if anyone could tell off the top of their head, what sort of addition sizes am I looking at for one of the other. My goal is to get a nice, set water addition formula that I'll be able to consistently use for light beers. I think that'll give me a great starting point. As for darker beers, I'll probably try to use pickling lime, although that's another topic for another day.

Thanks in advance guys.

Use the calcium chloride for flavor (chloride gives a nice "rounded" flavor), and use phosphoric or lactic acid to adjust the pH.

 

[briggssteel]

Use the calcium chloride for flavor (chloride gives a nice "rounded" flavor), and use phosphoric or lactic acid to adjust the pH.

That makes sense as I know acid can drop ph quickly. How much lactic acid are we talking in measurements to try and incrementally drop the ph? I'm wondering if there's a rule of thumb like hypothetically, "this amount of lactic acid will drop the ph a tenth of a point" Since I know conversion doesn't take very long I want what I add to be effective, but I REALLY don't want to overshoot my target and have it be too acidic.

 

[Yooper]

That makes sense as I know acid can drop ph quickly. How much lactic acid are we talking in measurements to try and incrementally drop the ph? I'm wondering if there's a rule of thumb like hypothetically, "this amount of lactic acid will drop the ph a tenth of a point" Since I know conversion doesn't take very long I want what I add to be effective, but I REALLY don't want to overshoot my target and have it be too acidic.

I have this chart in my brewery (scroll all the way down to the bottom): http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Mash_pH_control

The info before the chart is great reading, too. I printed out that bottom section, and have it taped on the wall next to where I store my acids.

What I would do is use a spreadsheet (either the one on Brewer's Friend or Bru'n water), and guestimate my pH first and then plan my adjustments accordingly.

 

[zwiller]

Something is off. Hefe I just did with distilled only needed 4.4g CaCl to hit 5.4. That's just under 1 teaspoon.

 

[ajdelange]

Yes, something is off. Suspect the pH measurement - old buffers, too long since last cal, unstable probe... One gram/gal of CaCl2, assuming it is all CaCl2 (no water of hydration - most is around 80% and the older it is the more water it picks up) it would be expected to reduce mash pH by about 0.11. The DI mash pH of your grist would have to be about 5.5, thus, to hit 5.4 with CaCl2 alone and that's not likely at all as most barley malts fall between 5.6 and 5.8 and wheat malts higher than that.

Calcium does lower mash pH but it's probably not the best way to go about controlling it as it takes quite a bit of calcium to get an appreciable drop. Probably the easiest way to get it is to add a couple (2 - 2) percent sauermalz to the grist. If you have a pH meter (stable and properly calibrated) you can measure the pH of a small test mash and use the rule of thumb (1% sauermalz per 0.1 pH reduction) to estimate the amount of sauermalz needed. You can even try a second test mash with that amount of sauermalz added to see if you get what you want with the calculated addition. You can, of course, do the same with lactic or phosphoric acid.

Given that I probably took more ribbons for wheat beers than anything else over the years before I began controlling mash pH (and before I lost my taste for wheats) I tentatively conclude that you can get away with higher pH in wheat beers than Pils, for example. I think it's probably enough to get mash pH down to 5.6

 

[zwiller]

I tentatively conclude that you can get away with higher pH in wheat beers than Pils, for example. I think it's probably enough to get mash pH down to 5.6

You cannot realize how profound those 2 sentences are to me. I only crank out one hefe a year and the more I tinker with them the worse they get. My hefes were also great before I paid attention to pH. Thought I was going nuts or my palate evolved... Can I ask you to expound? I have seen your mash schedule for hefes and it very intense and I assume the various rests with drop the pH further. I simply do not have the time to dedicate to such a long mash and am trying to find a good compromise.

 

[briggssteel]

Ok so I was messing around with the water calculator on brewer's friend and I do really like the set up for it. Not to confuse anyone since I originally mentioned a hefe I am planning on brewing, but I plugged in a Kölsch I just brewed to see where my ph really was on that.

It was:

9lbs pilsner
.5lbs white wheat malt
.5lbs light Munich 10L

Mash water: 3.33 gallons
Sparge water: 5.8 gallons

I uses all RO so I put 0 for all of the mineral amounts like calcium, bicarbonates, etc. The calculator says that RO water untreated would be at a ph of 8.0.

I then added the 1 teaspoon (4.5 grams) of calcium chloride and it said my mash ph would come in at 5.67. Obviously disappointing that it was estimated to be that high but now I know. Now if I add 3ml of 88% lactic acid it says the PH will drop to 5.42. This leads me to believe that (roughly with that mash ratio and amount) that 1 ml of lactic acid will drop the ph 0.1

I'm hoping that this water calculator is accurate as it's easy for me to understand and gives me a good starting point. I guess my question now is that if this information is accurate and I were to brew it again should I trust the calculator and add 1 teaspoon of calcium chloride and 3ml of lactic acid at mash in or do I add my calcium chloride, take a reading, if it's high then add 1 ml of acid, take another reading, etc. Doing the latter way, it seems like the starches would already be mostly converted by the time I chilled to room temp, took a reading, and made an adjustment.

 

[zwiller]

RO water can vary and I am not sure if you are RO at home or buying at store. A TDS might come in handy... I use distilled because I have to buy it and want some assurance it is not water high in TDS from a RO unit needing a filter change.

I am a Bru'n water user and do not know brewers friend but I find it odd RO defaults to a pH of 8 when I would suspect 7. Maybe this is the issue? Can you change it to 7?

You will learn tremendously once you start measuring against the software and I highly recommend employing your strategy of adding the acid in 1ml increments. RDWHAH is the key. Eventually you get a feel for it...

 

[briggssteel]

To Martin if you read this, I happened to catch your interview on the brewing network and I found your chalk/lactic acid concoction for a hefeweizen very intriguing. I think I'd like to give it a try. I believe you said using RO water you mixed .35 grams of chalk and .6 ml of lactic acid per gallon of mash water together and just tossed that in at mash in. So using only that what type of mash ph are you getting and you really like the flavor profile? I'm shooting for something like weinstephan as that's one of my absolute favorites. Thanks.

 

[ajdelange]

Can I ask you to expound? I have seen your mash schedule for hefes and it very intense and I assume the various rests with drop the pH further. I simply do not have the time to dedicate to such a long mash and am trying to find a good compromise.

I'll have to go dig out some notes as I don't brew this style any more. Seems to me the secrets were to be sure to use Weihenstephan 68 and work it below 64 °F. I don't remember what, if anything I did to the water.

 

[mabrungard]

To Martin if you read this, I happened to catch your interview on the brewing network and I found your chalk/lactic acid concoction for a hefeweizen very intriguing. I think I'd like to give it a try. I believe you said using RO water you mixed .35 grams of chalk and .6 ml of lactic acid per gallon of mash water together and just tossed that in at mash in. So using only that what type of mash ph are you getting and you really like the flavor profile? I'm shooting for something like weinstephan as that's one of my absolute favorites. Thanks.

That process of creating calcium lactate produces a relatively neutral substance that does NOT really affect mash pH. You still have to add acid or acid malt to the mash to bring the pH down to a desirable level. The point of the calcium lactate addition is to boost the lactate in the wort when using RO or distilled water. Since there is little to no alkalinity in that water, you don't really get the opportunity to add much lactate via lactic acid or acid malt or you would push the mash pH way too low. So the calcium lactate treatment is an alternative.

With that said, I'm not positive that I would employ that much calcium lactate per gallon after having taste tested the result. I picked up just a hint of chalkiness in the flavor. My next attempt will be at about half of the rate shown above. That should do away with any hint of chalkiness.

Do target a nice low pH of around 5.2 for a Hefeweizen. That is a big compliment and addition to the tartness that should be present in this beer style.

 

[briggssteel]

That process of creating calcium lactate produces a relatively neutral substance that does NOT really affect mash pH. You still have to add acid or acid malt to the mash to bring the pH down to a desirable level. The point of the calcium lactate addition is to boost the lactate in the wort when using RO or distilled water. Since there is little to no alkalinity in that water, you don't really get the opportunity to add much lactate via lactic acid or acid malt or you would push the mash pH way too low. So the calcium lactate treatment is an alternative.

With that said, I'm not positive that I would employ that much calcium lactate per gallon after having taste tested the result. I picked up just a hint of chalkiness in the flavor. My next attempt will be at about half of the rate shown above. That should do away with any hint of chalkiness.

Do target a nice low pH of around 5.2 for a Hefeweizen. That is a big compliment and addition to the tartness that should be present in this beer style.

I'm glad I thought to ask. That's crazy that the lactic acid mixed with the chalk neutralizes it. Water chemistry is extremely advanced. In that case I'll just worry about using lactic acid to hit a desirable mash ph. You did mention in that interview to keep the calcium relatively low to keep the yeast from flocculating correct?

 

[mabrungard]

Correct, high calcium content in brewing water can enhance flocculation, which may not be ideal for a beer like a Hefeweizen. Even at the slightly higher calcium content I used to brew my last batch of Hefe, it was still plenty cloudy!

 

[ajdelange]

Why would you want to keep the yeast from flocculating? They should settle firmly to the bottom of the bottle. If you want it 'Mit hefe trüben' you then go through the 'master pour' ritual. If you want it Krystal you don't.

 

[zwiller]

I'll have to go dig out some notes as I don't brew this style any more. Seems to me the secrets were to be sure to use Weihenstephan 68 and work it below 64 °F. I don't remember what, if anything I did to the water.

Same here, I use 3068 and 58F pitch and 62F ferment. Pretty sure I am giving up using lactic acid in my hefes. Last batch had only .7ml 88% in 5.5G since I used 100% distilled water and I (and wife) find it objectionable.

 

[briggssteel]

Same here, I use 3068 and 58F pitch and 62F ferment. Pretty sure I am giving up using lactic acid in my hefes. Last batch had only .7ml 88% in 5.5G since I used 100% distilled water and I (and wife) find it objectionable.

How the heck are you supposed to get your ph in a good range with RO or distilled water then? I guess you could use acid malt but that uses lactic acid as well right?

 

[ajdelange]

How the heck are you supposed to get your ph in a good range with RO or distilled water then?

The thesis is that for wheat beers, at least those done with decoction mashing, that you don't do anything with nominal water (mine is about 110 hardness, 80 alk., chloride and sodium about 7 and sulfate about 27). Looking back over my notes I would get dough in pH's of anywhere from 5.5 to 5.8. This nearly always dropped from the decoctions but not always. The beer pH, when I measured it, was usually pretty close to 4 (4.1 - 4.2). Apparently decoctions released acid from the wheat malt (ferulic acid for sure) and the yeast themselves, of course, are responsible for lowering the final beer pH to where they want it to be. I control pH for best flavor and though 'control' here meant do nothing those were some of the finest beers I ever made. This says that the advice to shoot for a mash pH of 5.2 is probably not good advice but as I never made a wheat beer with a pH that low I cannot say that such a beer might not have been even better than the ones I made.

 

[briggssteel]

Ok, so I'm playing around with bru 'n water and I think I have everything figured out, but I'd like to make sure. For my hefe it's 6 total gallons with 11.4 total pounds of grain. It's 5.7 pilsner and 5.7 wheat malt. I put in 11.4 pounds base malt with 2L as that's about the Lovibond of both the pilsner and the wheat. I'm using all RO water so I just put 0 across the board for starting water and an assumed PH of 7. The mash water is a volume of 3.8 gallons and the sparge water is 5 gallons.

Based off of that, it says I should have a starting mash PH of 5.6. If this is off then I obviously must have put something wrong in at this point. I then put in 1 teaspoon (3.4 grams) of calcium chloride. 3.4 grams divided by 6 gallons is .57 grams per gallon so that's what I entered. That gives me a mash PH of 5.5.

Now I add in 1ml of lactic acid (.27ml per gallon) and that gets me to a mash PH of 5.4 assuming this is where I want to end up. This also gives me a final RA of -70. Hopefully I've done this correctly. If not I would appreciate if someone could steer me in the right direction for using this software. Thanks!

 

[zwiller]

Sorry I didn't get back to you, but adding calcium salts can be used to lower mash pH without the need for acid.

Your BNW work looks good to me. My hefe with distilled went to 5.4 with CaCl and then 5.3 with lactic acid. Mine went a tad lower since I used 20% munich...

Although decoction can lower mash pH, I doubt the effect is profound and if a mash was doughed in @ 5.8, I cannot imagine that the preboil pH made it to 5.2 via decoctions. I would guess maybe a tenth or .2 drop. In any event, Warner's work indicates that hefe yeast is quite forgiving of wort pH which explains the wide range of opinions on the matter.

 

[grathan]

I would use both the tablespoon of gypsum and 0.3ml of lactic acid. I certainly wouldn't rely on gypsum or calcium chloride to adjust ph though, that is what acid is for.