Mash pH took an hour to equalize

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h22lude

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Brewed an american wheat today. I've been taking pH samples throughout the mash and it seems odd.

My grain bill is 5lb 10oz german pilsner, 5lb 10oz light wheat and 1lb 4oz carahell. 8.53 gallons strike volume full mash BIAB using 100% RO water with 2ppm TDS (tap water pH is 5, I know it is very low). I added 30mL of liquid CaCl2 at 1.092 gravity, .93g CaSO4, .32g Meta and 4.6mL 88% lactic. With all that, I was estimated at at 5.4 pH.

My first reading was 10 minutes into mash and it was very low, around 5.1 (can't remember exactly). Re-calibrated my MW-102 and tried again. 40 minutes into the mash it was 5.23. 52 minutes into the mash it was 5.29. 66 minutes into the mash it was 5.34. It held pretty steady at 5.35.

Usually my mash pH holds steady pretty quickly. Is there a reason mash pH could take that long to hold steady? I haven't used my MW-102 in about a year but I calibrated it with 7.01 and 4.01 and tested it to make sure it was holding. The probe was sitting in storage solution for the year it wasn't being used too.
 
This all sounds normal to me.

Could it be because I did a step mash? Seems odd that it took an hour to level out.

So would my mash pH be 5.34 since that is what it settled out at even though it was later in the mash?
 
Could it be because I did a step mash? Seems odd that it took an hour to level out.

So would my mash pH be 5.34 since that is what it settled out at even though it was later in the mash?

In my way of looking at this (whereby I always recommend that the mash pH of record occurs at the end of the mash) it is 5.34 pH that goes into the record book for this mash. I don't think that step mashing made a significant change in the observed progression of the mash pH. I just entered your data into MME 6.00 and its mash prediction for your recipe, water, mineralization, and acidification is 5.33 pH.
 
In my way of looking at this (whereby I always recommend that the mash pH of record occurs at the end of the mash) it is 5.34 pH that goes into the record book for this mash. I don't think that step mashing made a significant change in the observed progression of the mash pH. I just entered your data into MME 6.00 and its mash prediction for your recipe, water, mineralization, and acidification is 5.33 pH.

Interesting! That is good to know. I always thought mash pH was hit near the 15 minute mark.
 
Nope. pH is nowhere near its finishing value at the 15 minute mark. It is almost always low and it rises with time. I now recommend that brewers check pH at multiple times during the mash and it will likely be stable at the 45 minute mark.

A 15 minute reading can be taken, but it should confirm that your pH is LOWER than your target.
 
recommend that brewers check pH at multiple times during the mash and it will likely be stable at the 45 minute mark.

Ok. Interesting. Procedurally easier for me to sample at the end anyway, while the bag is draining (BIAB), and I'm sampling for preboil SG.
 
This is an interesting question. The brewing reactions take place quite slowly so that one is never at equilibrium. This casts some doubt as to when the reading which we declare to represent the mash pH should be taken. When I first poo-pooed the notion of software prediction of mash pH I would often ask the question of those who assayed to make such predictions what epoch was to be assigned to their estimates. When I started exploring this subject in detail and realized that the key to mash pH prediction, were it possible, would rely on malt titration curves and started collecting malt titration data it was apparent that the question of when was an important one. If one has added acid or base to his mash water or grist the pH meter at first exposure to the mash measures the pH of the liquid in the mash tun which is pretty much the mash liquor as the grist particles haven't solubilized yet. Thus early readings on a mash to which acid has been added (as in OP here) are going to be low (as OP indicates they were). The opposite will be observed in cases where base has been added to the liquor or grist. In either case the liquid starts to penetrate the grain, starch granules burst and the mashing reactions begin. While this is going on mash pH begins to move towards equilibrium and a trace of mash pH over time exhibits typical assymptotic behaviour. After 25 to 30 minutes the rate of change of pH will have slowed but as is the case with OP will continue to rise or fall gradually over however long the mashing process continues. Thus a good brewer will, with a new beer at least, monitor pH many times starting at strike and ending when the beer is in the package. This pH history serves as a set of mileposts along the way. The brewer knows where pH should be half an hour after strike, at the time he returns the second decoction, as he goes into the kettle, 24 hours after pitching and so on. A deviation at any of these points is a signal to him that something isn't right (though, of course, variances in malts will lead to some deviations but he knows, with experiences, how large those deviations can be without causing alarm).

If we are going to attempt mash pH prediction properly we have to have malt titration data and the titration curve for a given malt depends rather sharply on whether the pH values that go into the titration curve were measured at 5 minutes or 10 minutes. The differences between titration curves measured at 25 minutes and 30 minutes are going to be much smaller but they will not be the same, in some cases, as a titration curve measured at an hour. At the same time we recognize that most of the character of the beer has been determined by 30 minutes. The reason we mash longer is to squeeze that last bit of fermentable out of the grain. With decoction mashing we only mash longer because the rest mash has to do something while the decoction is processing. Given this, and given that collection of a complete set of titration curves out to an hour is terribly impractical (it takes quote a bit of work to get a titration curve) it seems reasonable to pick 25 min or half an hour. If our measured pH at half an hour is a fair representation of what we predicted using half hour titration data then we know, fairly early on, that we didn't make some mistake like bobbling a kg to pounds conversion or slipping a decimal point in the water's alkalinity number. This is why I have always, and continue, to advocate half an hour as the number to use. Were pH prediction to be taken seriously, to the point that ASBC or EBC published methods for it, they would have to pick some number. Half an hour is, of course, arbitrary but I am guessing based on the way things work, that they would choose a number like this.

OP: The rapid rise in pH you observed is quite normal given that you used lactic acid. Creep upwards past half an hour is also normal but in this case seems a bit high. It is probably worth doing a stability check on your electrode. As your electrode is getting on in years it is also probably worth checking its step response. Let it stabilize completely (or as completely as it will) in 4 buffer then rinse it off quickly with DI water, shake or blot it dry and then pop it into pH 4 buffer. See how long it takes to stabilize at 4.
 
Nope. pH is nowhere near its finishing value at the 15 minute mark. It is almost always low and it rises with time. I now recommend that brewers check pH at multiple times during the mash and it will likely be stable at the 45 minute mark.

A 15 minute reading can be taken, but it should confirm that your pH is LOWER than your target.

Perfect, so my final mash pH wasn't that far off from the estimate.
 
This is an interesting question. The brewing reactions take place quite slowly so that one is never at equilibrium. This casts some doubt as to when the reading which we declare to represent the mash pH should be taken. When I first poo-pooed the notion of software prediction of mash pH I would often ask the question of those who assayed to make such predictions what epoch was to be assigned to their estimates. When I started exploring this subject in detail and realized that the key to mash pH prediction, were it possible, would rely on malt titration curves and started collecting malt titration data it was apparent that the question of when was an important one. If one has added acid or base to his mash water or grist the pH meter at first exposure to the mash measures the pH of the liquid in the mash tun which is pretty much the mash liquor as the grist particles haven't solubilized yet. Thus early readings on a mash to which acid has been added (as in OP here) are going to be low (as OP indicates they were). The opposite will be observed in cases where base has been added to the liquor or grist. In either case the liquid starts to penetrate the grain, starch granules burst and the mashing reactions begin. While this is going on mash pH begins to move towards equilibrium and a trace of mash pH over time exhibits typical assymptotic behaviour. After 25 to 30 minutes the rate of change of pH will have slowed but as is the case with OP will continue to rise or fall gradually over however long the mashing process continues. Thus a good brewer will, with a new beer at least, monitor pH many times starting at strike and ending when the beer is in the package. This pH history serves as a set of mileposts along the way. The brewer knows where pH should be half an hour after strike, at the time he returns the second decoction, as he goes into the kettle, 24 hours after pitching and so on. A deviation at any of these points is a signal to him that something isn't right (though, of course, variances in malts will lead to some deviations but he knows, with experiences, how large those deviations can be without causing alarm).

If we are going to attempt mash pH prediction properly we have to have malt titration data and the titration curve for a given malt depends rather sharply on whether the pH values that go into the titration curve were measured at 5 minutes or 10 minutes. The differences between titration curves measured at 25 minutes and 30 minutes are going to be much smaller but they will not be the same, in some cases, as a titration curve measured at an hour. At the same time we recognize that most of the character of the beer has been determined by 30 minutes. The reason we mash longer is to squeeze that last bit of fermentable out of the grain. With decoction mashing we only mash longer because the rest mash has to do something while the decoction is processing. Given this, and given that collection of a complete set of titration curves out to an hour is terribly impractical (it takes quote a bit of work to get a titration curve) it seems reasonable to pick 25 min or half an hour. If our measured pH at half an hour is a fair representation of what we predicted using half hour titration data then we know, fairly early on, that we didn't make some mistake like bobbling a kg to pounds conversion or slipping a decimal point in the water's alkalinity number. This is why I have always, and continue, to advocate half an hour as the number to use. Were pH prediction to be taken seriously, to the point that ASBC or EBC published methods for it, they would have to pick some number. Half an hour is, of course, arbitrary but I am guessing based on the way things work, that they would choose a number like this.

OP: The rapid rise in pH you observed is quite normal given that you used lactic acid. Creep upwards past half an hour is also normal but in this case seems a bit high. It is probably worth doing a stability check on your electrode. As your electrode is getting on in years it is also probably worth checking its step response. Let it stabilize completely (or as completely as it will) in 4 buffer then rinse it off quickly with DI water, shake or blot it dry and then pop it into pH 4 buffer. See how long it takes to stabilize at 4.

So really in-depth info! Thank you.

Just did a stability test in 4.01. I did four tests. The first one was a fail but that could be user error. It took about 40 seconds to calibrate to 4.01. The first test never reached 4.01 again. The second test reached 4.01 in 50 seconds. The third test reached 4.01 in 35 seconds. The forth test reached 4.01 in 40 seconds.

For each test I rinsed the probe in RO water, blotted dry and shook it a little. I put the probe in the 4.01 solution (which is a single use closed packet from Milwaukee). I moved the probe around for about 5 seconds and then let it sit. Once the hour glass icon stopped, I moved it around again to see if it would move and let it sit to finalize.
 
It took about 40 seconds to calibrate to 4.01.
This says your electrode's response is still good. The next part is to see if it is stable. After cal put it in 4.01 buffer and leave it there for an hour. Stir and take a reading every 5 minutes or so. There should be no appreciable trend visible. The MW102 is known to have good stability (which is why it is one of the few meters on the recommended list here) so you should be OK but the wise man checks even electrodes costing hundreds of dollars for stability from time to time.
 
If acid has been added (as seems to be the most common case) mash pH will continue to rise after 15 minutes. If base has been added mash pH will continue to fall after 15 minutes.

This was not the case for my most recent Stout. I added 2.36 grams of baking soda right up front (dissolved it into the mash water prior to dough-in) and the measured pH continued to rise throughout the mash (wherein I must state that the only pH samples I took were at 30 and 60 minutes). Room temperature readings were 5.18 and 5.22 pH respectively.

As an aside, the 2.36 grams of baking soda proved to be nowhere near sufficient to bring it to 5.4 pH.
 
This says your electrode's response is still good. The next part is to see if it is stable. After cal put it in 4.01 buffer and leave it there for an hour. Stir and take a reading every 5 minutes or so. There should be no appreciable trend visible. The MW102 is known to have good stability (which is why it is one of the few meters on the recommended list here) so you should be OK but the wise man checks even electrodes costing hundreds of dollars for stability from time to time.

I'll do this tonight when I get home and report back
 
(wherein I must state that the only pH samples I took were at 30 and 60 minutes).
So you don't really know what happened after 15 minutes. I don't either of course but it very probably decreased dramatically in the first 15 minutes and then less so in the next 15 and then, as the slower reactions in the mash completed turned again. Can happen. It can also happen that the pH will decline steadily, but slowly, as the mash progresses. This is particularly likely with decoction mashes as some of the kettle pH reduction reactions take place during the decoctions.
 
In my mind all mash parameters need to be locked in by the 30 minute mark. The reasoning behind this? I believe mash temperature has to be set within the first 5 to 10 minutes of dough in. And that ~90% of conversion is done within the first 20-30 minutes of dough in.

In other words nearly all of the conversion occurs within the first 30 minutes of dough in. Same as a higher temperature mash equals a fuller bodied beer and a lower temperature mash equals a higher ABV but thinner beer. That's the reasoning for my choosing 30 minutes after dough in for taking a mash pH reading. Any later than that is after the fact as far as conversion goes.
 
This says your electrode's response is still good. The next part is to see if it is stable. After cal put it in 4.01 buffer and leave it there for an hour. Stir and take a reading every 5 minutes or so. There should be no appreciable trend visible. The MW102 is known to have good stability (which is why it is one of the few meters on the recommended list here) so you should be OK but the wise man checks even electrodes costing hundreds of dollars for stability from time to time.

Took me a while but I finally got to testing stability. Did it during my brew day today.

Calibrated at the beginning of my mash.
20 minutes into my mash - 3.98
20 minutes later - 3.99
20 minutes later - 4.00 but slowly dropped to 3.98 after the hour glass went away as I left it in the solution for another few minutes
30 minutes later - 4.00 but slowly dropped to 3.98
10 minutes later - 4.03 but slowly dropped to 4.01
30 minutes later - 4.05 but slowly dropped to 4.03
20 minutes later - 4.08

Does this seem normal? Seems to be ok until it hit a little over an hour and a half.

Side question, when I am taking a measurement I swirl the probe around for 10 seconds, let it sit until it stabilizes then swirl it around again for a few seconds to see if it moves again. Is that ok or should I be doing something else?
 
I've found that gently swirling the probe is fine as long as it's swirled at the same rate during calibration and subsequent sample readings. By gently swirling I mean moving the probe back and forth through the solution no more than once per second.
 
I've found that gently swirling the probe is fine as long as it's swirled at the same rate during calibration and subsequent sample readings. By gently swirling I mean moving the probe back and forth through the solution no more than once per second.

Yeah that is what I do. Very slow swirl.
 
I've always found that swirling leads to an artificially low pH reading.

But if I do the same at calibration, wouldn't that equal out? The unit reads 4.01 and 7.01 while gently swirling so it would read correct while reading a wort sample doing the same swirling motion?
 
But if I do the same at calibration, wouldn't that equal out? The unit reads 4.01 and 7.01 while gently swirling so it would read correct while reading a wort sample doing the same swirling motion?

Perhaps, but why rely on perhaps?
 
Perhaps, but why rely on perhaps?

Really the reason why I do it is because my first pH meter (Hanna) didn't seem to read correctly if I didn't swirl it. I'll test it with the MW102. I'll swirl for a second and then let it sit until equalized in the two solutions then test it 15 minutes later in 4.01
 

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