Mash PH Too Low With Straight RO Water

[wobdee]

Is it OK to keep out the brewing salts from the mash to boost the PH a bit and add them latter in the boil?

I've been messing with Best Red X malt and RO water recipes and the predicted mash PH with 70-100% Red X is giving me a PH of 5.2-5.3. I'd like to raise that up more into the 5.4-5.5 range.

If I leave the calcium chloride and gypsum additions out of the mash it raises it a bit but I don't know how that effects the enzymes in the mash?

I'd like to stay away from adding baking soda to raise the mash since its full of sodium and if I add slaked lime it pushes my calcium too high.

Also, i thought of mixing my tap water with RO but its from a well with a water softener so its a little high in sodium and just not as clean looking, even smells a little sulfury.

 

[wobdee]

Something else I just thought of is if I leave out the darker malts till the end of the mash along with the salts it raises the PH a bit. So this works for my Czech Amber I want to brew next.

3 gal BIAB with 5 gal RO mash water, 90 min boil

Red X 68%
Pilsner 27%
Caramunich III 5%

If I leave out the salts and Caramunich the predicted PH is 5.43. Adding back the salts and Cara brings it back down to 5.35. Now I just need to figure out my darker lagers.

 

[Rhaop]

Add your salts during the boil for flavoring and yeast benefit, during the mash you should be fine with 100% RO water the enzyme activity shouldn't be affected
Thats going off everything i've read on the subject so far

 

[ajdelange]

Is it OK to keep out the brewing salts from the mash to boost the PH a bit and add them latter in the boil?

Assuming you mean the calcium salts, note that they only have small effect on mash pH. If you reserve them for the boil some of their pH reducing effect will be seen there.

I've been messing with Best Red X malt and RO water recipes and the predicted mash PH with 70-100% Red X is giving me a PH of 5.2-5.3. I'd like to raise that up more into the 5.4-5.5 range.

I haven't measured RedX but I have used it at about 70% with Pils malt and RO water and didn't see mash pH that low. I'd suspect the predictor and check DI mash pH with a meter.

If I leave the calcium chloride and gypsum additions out of the mash it raises it a bit but I don't know how that effects the enzymes in the mash?

It doesn't. There are plenty of metal ions in the malt for the enzymne co-factor role.

I'd like to stay away from adding baking soda to raise the mash since its full of sodium and if I add slaked lime it pushes my calcium too high.

The best reason for staying away from these alkalis is that you probably don't need them. I could be wrong on that, of course, as I don't know what other high kilned malts you may be using.

 

[wobdee]

Thanks guys. I'm using Brewers Friend water calculator and its been pretty much dead for most recipes comparing it to my cheesy cheap meter. ( I need an upgrade)

When I punch in 5 lbs of red x with 5 gal of straight RO Brewers Friend comes up with a 5.29 PH. If I add 1 gm calcium chloride and .5 gm gypsum it drops to 5.23. I did brew this 100% red x recipe once with my well water and the actual PH from my meter was 5.39, .07 higher than predicted by BF.

I know Red X is listed at 12L and is a blend of 3 different malts so maybe that's what's messing with my calculations?

 

[mchrispen]

I get good results with RedX closer to 15L in Bru'n Water.

 

[wobdee]

I get good results with RedX closer to 15L in Bru'n Water.

Hmm, when I plug in 15L into Brewers Friend the PH drops even lower. When I punch in 10L it seems more realistic.

 

[mchrispen]

100% RedX mash with RO water should come in around 5.3 pH without adjustment, at 1.5 qt/pound. My DI test mash before I brewed put it right at 5.29 pH. I used the DI to calibrate to the 15L rating, as that is the only mechanism to adjust malt acidity (as far as I know) in Bru'n Water. There is some disagreement between Brewer's Friend and BWS if I recall, but they are generally close in estimation.

If you add calcium minerals into this - then it will drop. You would need to employ some baking soda or pickling lime to raise to your desired mash pH.

 

[mabrungard]

I use RO water exclusively for all my brewing and almost every brew includes a small sodium chloride addition for a little flavor. There is no reason to fear sodium at low to moderate concentration in your brewing water. It does not taste salty. It doesn't even taste minerally until the sodium level gets near 100 ppm and its perceived as salty by most tasters when present at more that 250 ppm. So for levels at 50 ppm or less, there is NO chance that you should perceive it as an undesirable flavor in your beers.

With the typical baking soda addition, I find that the overall Na content can be kept below 50 ppm and there is no taste impact other than the desirable elevation of the mash pH and the resulting softening of the roast character in the beer. I use baking soda all the time in my beers that need the alkali boost. Most don't need it, but I find that baking soda is the way to produce reliable and flavor-neutral mash pH increases.

Don't fear sodium...as long as you keep the level moderate to low (<50 ppm).

 

[wobdee]

Thanks guys, I think I'll check into some baking soda additions.

 

[ajdelange]

100% RedX mash with RO water should come in around 5.3 pH without adjustment, at 1.5 qt/pound. My DI test mash before I brewed put it right at 5.29 pH.

That's valuable information! How about getting a wag on the buffering for us? Grind up 100g, mash with DI water, measure pH, add 1 mL 10% phosphoric acid and measure the pH again. Malts tend to run about 40 mEq/kg&#8226;pH and 10% phosphoric is 1.08 N so you should see a pH shift of about 1.08/4 = 0.27. The number you get will be rough. Better if you do it at mash temp (though you can cool samples before dunking meter).

I used the DI to calibrate to the 15L rating, as that is the only mechanism to adjust malt acidity (as far as I know) in Bru'n Water.

We hope eventually programs will become sophisticated enough to handle DI pH and at least the linear buffering term (actually less sophisticated as they won't have to convert between color and those two parameters as they do now).

There is some disagreement between Brewer's Friend and BWS if I recall, but they are generally close in estimation.

That's to be expected.

If you add calcium minerals into this - then it will drop. You would need to employ some baking soda or pickling lime to raise to your desired mash pH.

At the nominal 1 mEq/L calcium (50 mg which is enough to get you 70 mg/L Cl) the pH shift should be 0.01 pH or less relative to DI water with no calcium. That's not enough to worry about.

I've only used the RedX once at I think about 70% with the rest Weyermanns Pils. The 5.3 DI mash pH with an assumed 40 mEq/kg&#8226;pH for the linear term gives me an estimated mash pH ( with 1 mVal calcium) of 5.394. Without the calcium it would be 5.404. I don't recall the actual pH being that low but it could have been.

 

[mchrispen]

I can do that AJ... planning another 100% batch soon, this time twisted toward a Belgian Strong.

Is that 100 g in 0.5 L distilled? That was the volume I used last time.

I am still trying to figure out what the blend is here. Seems to be Munich, CaraRed and perhaps some CaraMunich? Really malty, and crazy fine foam stand. Very toasty, with a slight metallic note - although that maybe some slight astringency.

edit - checked my notes - 100g/0.5l

 

[mchrispen]

@ajdelange - have been looking at this, http://www.canbar6.usask.ca/files/36_Evans.pdf, and wondering if there is a documented and standardized congress-like mash for measuring extract from a given mill setup. This would potentially give me extract and DI pH values that match my system. Why? Because I can... but it might be interesting to put the information into a database.

Procedure ideas: Mash at my usual 1.5 qt/pound grist ratio in mason jars immersed in my sous vide circulator, say at 156F. Take 4 pH measurements at 15 minute intervals and measure final gravity, and a titration as you mention. Indicate vendor, brand and date and other relevant information.