Mash out question regarding temp. & step process

[GJOCONNELL]

I did my first solo all grain batch yesterday and I got confused mid-stream during the mashout phase and had a couple questions:

1. I got the mash water to 152 F and let it rest for 60 minutes checked temp a couple times it dropped to 150 near the end (used a float therm. and a digital in several spots to ensure consistency) but it wasn't clear what temp the mash out water should be....what should it be?

2. Do I bring the mash out water to a boil to raise the temp of the mash to 170 and let rest for 10 minutes?

3. How much mash out water do I need for a 13 lbs grain build? I tried to find a calc. to show me how much but couldn't figure out how much mash water should be boiled and to what temp and then how much sparge water I should heat up to 170.

Clearly my efficiency went into the toilet on this one but thankfully my pre-boil volume was a little under 7 gallons and after a 90 minute boil I ended up with 5.1 gallons in the fermenter after accounting for line loss (I use a chugger pump setup to go through the Therm.).

To summarize the short version of the above is where is a calc. to determine how much mash water I need and to what temp. should it be? 2nd can someone confirm how much sparge water I should have used for my Pliny the Elder All Grain Clone which had 13 lbs of 2 row and 6 oz. of Crystal 40L.

My OG ended up being 1.062 so I am going to add some DME to get it back to the 1.072 range.

 

[Konadog]

I've always used BeerSmith (best $20 I've spent) to calculate everything. You could try using Brewersfriend and see if it works for you.

Water additions all depend on your equipment, boil off rate, and how much you want in the end (5, 5.5, 6 gallons, etc..) to go into the fermenter.

 

[Denny]

Are you fly sparging or batch sparging? If you batch sparge, there's no need for a mashout.

 

[GJOCONNELL]

Are you fly sparging or batch sparging? If you batch sparge, there's no need for a mashout.

Based on the definitions I was fly sparging......my beer brewing buddy told me to buy Beersmith (which i did) and mentioned mash out is antiquated to some extent and that I should let it rip @ 180+ degrees and just fly sparge....no reason to do the rest.

I basically botched that I wasn't sure what i was doing pretty much because the directions were not clear to me as a noob.

I downloaded Beersmith for my notebook and I will be following those instructions which were much clearer to me on how much water to mash with and how much and to what temp I should go with the water. VIVA BEERSMITH!

 

[bigdaddybrew]

Until you figure out Beersmith here is a few simple calculators. The Rest calculator tells you how much boiling water to add to reach your new temp. I don't usually mash out but some people say it "locks in" the fermentability of your wort and may help thin the mash to get higher efficiency. I think it is mostly a waste of time but others swear by it.
http://www.rackers.org/calcs.shtml

 

[madscientist451]

In John Palmer's "how to brew" he says using mash water above 170 could result in Tannins being extracted from the grain husks. He also explains why a mashout is needed and when it isn't. Here's the chapter, its worth reading:
http://howtobrew.com/book/section-3/getting-the-wort-out-lautering/aspects-of-lautering

 

[RM-MN]

If you are batch sparging you don't need a mash out. If you really are fly sparging, quit and go to batch sparging. The small increase in efficiency that you may or may not get by fly sparging isn't worth the extra time it takes in my opinion. If you really like spending the time and effort for fly sparging, ignore my comment.

Yes, you can extract tannins by fly sparging if you use too hot of water and let the pH go up too high, usually defined as pH over 6.0.

 

[Denny]

Based on the definitions I was fly sparging......my beer brewing buddy told me to buy Beersmith (which i did) and mentioned mash out is antiquated to some extent and that I should let it rip @ 180+ degrees and just fly sparge....no reason to do the rest.

I basically botched that I wasn't sure what i was doing pretty much because the directions were not clear to me as a noob.

I downloaded Beersmith for my notebook and I will be following those instructions which were much clearer to me on how much water to mash with and how much and to what temp I should go with the water. VIVA BEERSMITH!

Rest? Are you sure you were fly sparging? See www.dennybrew.com

 

[Denny]

In John Palmer's "how to brew" he says using mash water above 170 could result in Tannins being extracted from the grain husks. He also explains why a mashout is needed and when it isn't. Here's the chapter, its worth reading:
http://howtobrew.com/book/section-3/getting-the-wort-out-lautering/aspects-of-lautering[/QUOTE

He's wrong.

 

[doug293cz]

In John Palmer's "how to brew" he says using mash water above 170 could result in Tannins being extracted from the grain husks. He also explains why a mashout is needed and when it isn't. Here's the chapter, its worth reading:
http://howtobrew.com/book/section-3/getting-the-wort-out-lautering/aspects-of-lautering

He's wrong.

@Denny : Can you elaborate specifically on where John is wrong (just in this chapter)? Two of his sparging definitions are wrong:

• What John refers to as the "English method" is what everyone else knows as batch sparging (except there is not really a "second mash"), and
• What John refers to as "Batch Sparging" is not sparging at all. For lautering efficiency it is identical to a full volume, no sparge process.

Anything else in the chapter you disagree with?

Brew on

 

[Denny]

@Denny : Can you elaborate specifically on where John is wrong (just in this chapter)? Two of his sparging definitions are wrong:

• What John refers to as the "English method" is what everyone else knows as batch sparging (except there is not really a "second mash"), and
• What John refers to as "Batch Sparging" is not sparging at all. For lautering efficiency it is identical to a full volume, no sparge process.

Anything else in the chapter you disagree with?

Brew on

Which edition are you looking at? I fed him info for the 3rd ed. that was supposed to correct his batch sparging info. In early editions I think he was just parroting the conventional wisdom about temp and tannins and has since learned (like the rest of us) that pH is really the major factor.

 

[chickypad]

I downloaded Beersmith for my notebook and I will be following those instructions which were much clearer to me on how much water to mash with and how much and to what temp I should go with the water. VIVA BEERSMITH!

Just a caution here, Beersmith is only as good as what you put in. It's pretty common to see posts like "Beersmith told me to do x and my numbers came out all wrong." Technically you should be telling Beersmith what to do. The default values may or may not get you close - you need set up you own equipment profile for boil off, deadspace, and other losses. You need to tell it whether you are preheating or not, and enter things like grain temp. You can use the defaults for mash thickness if you wish, though you should really be looking at all that and adjusting to what you want.

 

[Denny]

Just a caution here, Beersmith is only as good as what you put in. It's pretty common to see posts like "Beersmith told me to do x and my numbers came out all wrong." Technically you should be telling Beersmith what to do. The default values may or may not get you close - you need set up you own equipment profile for boil off, deadspace, and other losses. You need to tell it whether you are preheating or not, and enter things like grain temp. You can use the defaults for mash thickness if you wish, though you should really be looking at all that and adjusting to what you want.

Agreed. You need to remember that Beersmith is a tool to help you brew the way you want to. It is not instructions about how to brew.

 

[doug293cz]

Which edition are you looking at? I fed him info for the 3rd ed. that was supposed to correct his batch sparging info. In early editions I think he was just parroting the conventional wisdom about temp and tannins and has since learned (like the rest of us) that pH is really the major factor.

I was looking at the on-line (1st) edition, as that was the one referenced and linked by a previous poster. After going back and reading the same section of my home copy of the 3rd edition, and carefully reparsing the 1st edition phrasing, I must modify my previous comments. The definitions in the 1st edition are not wrong, just confusing and easy to misinterpret (which I, and perhaps many others, have done.)

In the first edition, John says this about batch sparging:

"Batch Sparging is a U.S. homebrewing practice where the full volume of sparge water is mixed into the mash. The grain bed is allowed to settle, and then the wort is drained off. The re-circulation step in this process takes place in the first minutes of the sparge. You can use more than one batch of water if you need to. This method differs from the English method in that the mash is not held for any significant time at the saccharification temperature before draining."​

Nowhere in this paragraph does he say that the original mash wort is fully drained prior to adding the sparge water to the mash. However, the last sentence references the previous paragraph, and says batch sparging is the same as the English method except for no additional saccharification rest, and his definition of the English method says this: "...the wort is completely drained from the grain bed before more water is added..."

The 3rd edition has the same problem. Nowhere in the paragraph explaining batch sparging does he explicitly state that the original mash wort is completely drained prior to adding sparge water.

Brew on

 

[Denny]

I'll talk to him about that. I think the 4th ed.is almost done. And it just proves that even Palmer doesn't know everything!

 

[user 141939]

I'm just gonna say that with batch sparging, I for one do a mash out. For a couple reasons...

I know some people can somehow vorlauf one quart or a cup or something and get clear runnings and then just let the valve rip wide open and be done batch sparging in a few minutes.

I have to vorlauf a bit more than that and also have to drain somewhat slower in order to get clear runnings and no stuck sparge, all told it might take 15-20 minutes??

When I started batch sparging, I didn't do mash out, I routinely ended up with lower than my target FG. Now I mash out and I feel I have much more control over my FG. I like locking down my wort profile and not have to worry about it changing while I vorlauf and batch sparge.

In addition, mash out and sparging with hot water means I can get my wort to a boil that much faster once I am done collecting. It saves me time. So although it might not be a necessity, I believe it can help certain people with certain systems have more control over the fermentability of the wort.

I will also just add, for the OP. I use beersmith to calculate mash out volume and temp. It estimates a bit low though for me, so I type in 168 for a target temp, and play around with the water volume until it tells me the volume I need to add is a temp of about 200 F, then I use that volume and add it boiling as opposed to 200 F (if that makes any sense).

As far as calculating sparge water, beersmith should calculate that for you based on what you enter for your final batch size, your boil-off rate, and the volume of water used in your mash. I aim for equal volumes run-off between my first runnings and my batch sparge.

 

[RM-MN]

I'm just gonna say that with batch sparging, I for one do a mash out. For a couple reasons...

I know some people can somehow vorlauf one quart or a cup or something and get clear runnings and then just let the valve rip wide open and be done batch sparging in a few minutes.

I have to vorlauf a bit more than that and also have to drain somewhat slower in order to get clear runnings and no stuck sparge, all told it might take 15-20 minutes??

When I started batch sparging, I didn't do mash out, I routinely ended up with lower than my target FG. Now I mash out and I feel I have much more control over my FG. I like locking down my wort profile and not have to worry about it changing while I vorlauf and batch sparge.

In addition, mash out and sparging with hot water means I can get my wort to a boil that much faster once I am done collecting. It saves me time. So although it might not be a necessity, I believe it can help certain people with certain systems have more control over the fermentability of the wort.

I will also just add, for the OP. I use beersmith to calculate mash out volume and temp. It estimates a bit low though for me, so I type in 168 for a target temp, and play around with the water volume until it tells me the volume I need to add is a temp of about 200 F, then I use that volume and add it boiling as opposed to 200 F (if that makes any sense).

As far as calculating sparge water, beersmith should calculate that for you based on what you enter for your final batch size, your boil-off rate, and the volume of water used in your mash. I aim for equal volumes run-off between my first runnings and my batch sparge.

When you vorlauf, you don't need to get clear runnings, just enough to keep the grain particles and husks out of the boil pot (and even that much may not be necessary, it will all settle out in the fermenter). Lots of people mistake the need for clear wort to make clear beer but there isn't any correlation. My wort (because I BIAB) is really cloudy but the beer comes out clear when I open a bottle.

The reason your mash out gets you a higher OG is because you have incomplete conversion in the mash. Raising the temperature speeds up the conversion so you get more sugars out of the grains. Milling finer may accomplish that without needing a mash out as will a longer mash period with the grains milled as they are. Try milling finer if you have your own mill (be prepared for a stuck sparge if you mill too fine) or a longer mash if you use the LHBS milled grains.

For most people there isn't a significant delay in reaching the boil when they use cold water for the sparge as the wet grains will raise the water temp anyway. Your choice of water temp for sparging.

 

[user 141939]

When you vorlauf, you don't need to get clear runnings, just enough to keep the grain particles and husks out of the boil pot (and even that much may not be necessary, it will all settle out in the fermenter). Lots of people mistake the need for clear wort to make clear beer but there isn't any correlation. My wort (because I BIAB) is really cloudy but the beer comes out clear when I open a bottle .

Yup this is what I am doing, still I need to do a few quarts to get to this point.

The reason your mash out gets you a higher OG is because you have incomplete conversion in the mash. Raising the temperature speeds up the conversion so you get more sugars out of the grains.

For most people there isn't a significant delay in reaching the boil when they use cold water for the sparge as the wet grains will raise the water temp anyway. Your choice of water temp for sparging.

I didn't say mashing out gets me a higher OG, I said it helps me hit my FG. Also, what you say doesn't make sense. Raising the temp to mash out doesn't speep up conversion. It STOPS conversion. that's why it's done.

My whole point is that just making blanket statements like "If you batch sparge, you don't need to mash out" or "It doesn't matter if you use hot or cold water to batch sparge". It just isn't always true for everyone. You say for most people there isn't significant delay. Well for me there is a delay. I don't see how you can really argue with that. If you sparge with cold water than the wort is going to be at a lower temp. It's going to take longer to bring that up to a boil.

I'm not going to mill my grains finer. I already said I have to drain slower than some to avoid stuck sparge.

I appreciate the thoughtful response, I'm not sure you read what I wrote very carefully though.

 

[RM-MN]

Yup this is what I am doing, still I need to do a few quarts to get to this point.



I didn't say mashing out gets me a higher OG, I said it helps me hit my FG. Also, what you say doesn't make sense. Raising the temp to mash out doesn't speep up conversion. It STOPS conversion. that's why it's done.

My whole point is that just making blanket statements like "If you batch sparge, you don't need to mash out" or "It doesn't matter if you use hot or cold water to batch sparge". It just isn't always true for everyone. You say for most people there isn't significant delay. Well for me there is a delay. I don't see how you can really argue with that. If you sparge with cold water than the wort is going to be at a lower temp. It's going to take longer to bring that up to a boil.

I'm not going to mill my grains finer. I already said I have to drain slower than some to avoid stuck sparge.

I appreciate the thoughtful response, I'm not sure you read what I wrote very carefully though.

Raising the temperature to mash out takes a finite amount of time and it takes more time yet to denature the enzymes. During that time the higher temperatures do speed up conversion but since the beta amylase denatures at the lower temperature, that speed up favors the alpha amylase. That leads to a more dextrinous wort and affects the FG by creating more unfermentable sugars.

Try a cold water sparge sometime and measure the temperature of the grains after you add the water and stir it. I'll make a guess that your sparge will be in the neighborhood of 110 to 120. That shouldn't take a significant amount more time to bring the wort to a boil over a 170 start.

 

[masonsjax]

Yup this is what I am doing, still I need to do a few quarts to get to this point.

Sounds to me like you need to fix the problems with your mash tun's filtering. We shouldn't need to qualify the generalities about batch sparging to include equipment failure.

Just another piece of anecdotal evidence, but I batch sparge as fast as possible using cold water and hit my numbers right on the money, and my beer is clear as a bell. If you're having trouble doing the same, look at adjusting your equipment or process, which is what RM-MN was trying to suggest. Don't dismiss the advice outright, it could help you achieve your goals without jumping through hoops.

 

[user 141939]

Here is my set-up.

[

If you have any advice as to how to make it better I'm all ears. I've tried a single braid and a bazooka screen before this. There is a stainless spirally thing on the inside to help keep the shape of the braid. I don't think of any of them really changed much.

Sure, I could keep trying to change my equipment. Maybe I could get a better mill. Maybe a whole new mash tun. Or I could just do a mash-out. I don't really consider this to be jumping through any hoops. You don't need to qualify the generality. I did that for you! I'm sure I am not the only one that isn't capable of doing lighting fast batch sparging.

 

[user 141939]

Raising the temperature to mash out takes a finite amount of time and it takes more time yet to denature the enzymes. During that time the higher temperatures do speed up conversion but since the beta amylase denatures at the lower temperature, that speed up favors the alpha amylase. That leads to a more dextrinous wort and affects the FG by creating more unfermentable sugars.

I was looking at it from the other angle.

First off, I mash for 60 minutes and check with iodine. I am most certainly getting complete conversion. Usually I do a starch check when I pull my pH sample after about 20 minutes and conversion is already over.

I don't think your suggestion is what is occurring.

I find it much more likely that the cause of my lower FG when I don't do a mash out is because of more favorable beta amylase during vorlauf and draining, as the temp continues to drop during this period and enzymatic activity has not been arrested.

Part of the reason you mash out for fly sparge is to lock in the fermentability of wort, correct? It's not to create a more dextrinous wort because of the little activity occurring before the enzymes are denatured. And the logic behind saying that batch sparge doesn't need one is because it happens so quickly, right? Some of us that batch sparge might not have the awesome ability to just rip our ball valves wide open and get a boil going instantly. Is all I'm saying.

 

[Denny]

I was looking at it from the other angle.

First off, I mash for 60 minutes and check with iodine. I am most certainly getting complete conversion. Usually I do a starch check when I pull my pH sample after about 20 minutes and conversion is already over.

I don't think your suggestion is what is occurring.

I find it much more likely that the cause of my lower FG when I don't do a mash out is because of more favorable beta amylase during vorlauf and draining, as the temp continues to drop during this period and enzymatic activity has not been arrested.

Part of the reason you mash out for fly sparge is to lock in the fermentability of wort, correct? It's not to create a more dextrinous wort because of the little activity occurring before the enzymes are denatured. And the logic behind saying that batch sparge doesn't need one is because it happens so quickly, right? Some of us that batch sparge might not have the awesome ability to just rip our ball valves wide open and get a boil going instantly. Is all I'm saying.

Do you hold a 170 temp for 20+ minutes when you do your mashout?

 

[user 141939]

Do you hold a 170 temp for 20+ minutes when you do your mashout?

I do not. I bring up to 168, stir it for a couple minutes and drain Does it really take that long? If so I suppose it puts huge hole in my line of thinking.

 

[Yooper]

I do not. I bring up to 168, stir it for a couple minutes and drain Does it really take that long? If so I suppose it puts huge hole in my line of thinking.

Yes- the denaturing of enzymes is not immediate.

 

[user 141939]

Raising the temperature to mash out takes a finite amount of time and it takes more time yet to denature the enzymes. During that time the higher temperatures do speed up conversion but since the beta amylase denatures at the lower temperature, that speed up favors the alpha amylase. That leads to a more dextrinous wort and affects the FG by creating more unfermentable sugars.

I've though about this some more and decided you could in fact be right.

Questions: If conversion is already complete, would this still occur? Or is this assuming I have incomplete conversion. If it's assuming I had incomplete conversion, would I have noticed an increase in my efficiency when I started adding mash-outs? I've done mash-outs on the last 5 or 6 brews. Two of them actually did have higher than my usual efficiency.

I'm just not sure how I couldn't be getting complete conversion, I mash for an hour, I check pH with a good pH meter, and I check with iodine.

I do also hope you could check out my first reply to your quote and let me know what you think of my theory for what is occurring. It seems logical to me but perhaps there is something wrong with it.

 

[Denny]

I do not. I bring up to 168, stir it for a couple minutes and drain Does it really take that long? If so I suppose it puts huge hole in my line of thinking.

Yep. 20 min. minimum.

 

[Denny]

I've though about this some more and decided you could in fact be right.

Questions: If conversion is already complete, would this still occur? Or is this assuming I have incomplete conversion. If it's assuming I had incomplete conversion, would I have noticed an increase in my efficiency when I started adding mash-outs? I've done mash-outs on the last 5 or 6 brews. Two of them actually did have higher than my usual efficiency.

I'm just not sure how I couldn't be getting complete conversion, I mash for an hour, I check pH with a good pH meter, and I check with iodine.

I do also hope you could check out my first reply to your quote and let me know what you think of my theory for what is occurring. It seems logical to me but perhaps there is something wrong with it.

One thing you've proven is how worthless the iodine test is. It can tell you about conversion, but not the state of the conversion. Use Kai's conversion efficiency formula to really tell you what's going on. http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.ph..._Efficiency#Determining_Conversion_Efficiency And I can pretty much guarantee you that what you're getting by raising the temp is fuller conversion.

 

[user 141939]

Ok well that page will take me a little bit to get through. I'll read through it and try out the formula on my next brew.

 

[RM-MN]

I've though about this some more and decided you could in fact be right.

Questions: If conversion is already complete, would this still occur? Or is this assuming I have incomplete conversion. If it's assuming I had incomplete conversion, would I have noticed an increase in my efficiency when I started adding mash-outs? I've done mash-outs on the last 5 or 6 brews. Two of them actually did have higher than my usual efficiency.

I'm just not sure how I couldn't be getting complete conversion, I mash for an hour, I check pH with a good pH meter, and I check with iodine.

I do also hope you could check out my first reply to your quote and let me know what you think of my theory for what is occurring. It seems logical to me but perhaps there is something wrong with it.

When you check with iodine do you include some of the grain or just the wort? The wort should always be negative at the end of the mash period but the particles of grain may still contain starches.