Mash Out & Fly Sparge Water Temp. Clarification

[CKing]

Just upgraded my mash tun from a 5 gallon to a 10 gallon beverage cooler.
Now I will be able to add the mash out step to my routine.

In the past I've heated my sparge water to the 185-190 degree range which would raise the grain bed to 168-170 degrees during fly sparging.

I'm assuming now with performing a mash out, I only need to heat the sparge water to 174-176 degrees (accounting for a 6 degree temperature loss when added to the HLT cooler).

Just wanted to make sure I'm thinking correctly.

 

[TheMadKing]

If you were heating your grain bed to 168-170 during fly sparging, you have always been mashing out and don't need to change a thing.

Mashing out is the act of raising the wort temperature to stop any further conversion from taking place and locking in your flavor profile.

So I guess I don't understand why anything would be different using a larger MLT unless I'm being stupid and missing something? (or unless you're converting to batch sparging?)

 

[CKing]

I'm looking to add the mash-out water now before I start to fly sparge.
In the past I'd get to the mash out temp range during the hour long fly sparge process, but I don't know how long it took since I'd always take temperature readings after sparging.
With the 5 gallon beverage cooler I used to use, most batches wouldn't have the head room to add the mash out water so I never did it that way.

I've hit low final gravity on some of my recent batches, and was thinking it may be due to not mashing out right after the 60 minute conversion time frame.

 

[TheMadKing]

I'm looking to add the mash-out water now before I start to fly sparge.
In the past I'd get to the mash out temp range during the hour long fly sparge process, but I don't know how long it took since I'd always take temperature readings after sparging.
With the 5 gallon beverage cooler I used to use, most batches wouldn't have the head room to add the mash out water so I never did it that way.

I've hit low final gravity on some of my recent batches, and was thinking it may be due to not mashing out right after the 60 minute conversion time frame.

Ah gotcha

Why can't you just add boiling water incrementally to the mash at the 60 minute mark, checking the temperature after each water addition until your grain bed is up to 168 then sparge as normal with 168 water?

You need much less volume of boiling water to do the job and you have to heat your sparge water less. Efficiency!

 

[Bobby_M]

Right, whatever volume of boiling water gets added pre-vorlauf and sparge to reach approximately 170F. Then you vorlauf and sparge with 170F water.

 

[TheMadKing]

Yep thats what I used to do before going BIAB

Sorry for being so confused, long mind numbing day at work. I promise I know what I'm doing lol

 

[CKing]

So the calculated mash out addition wasn't close to the 168 degree expectation (7 qts @ 200 degrees).
After calming myself by google searches it sounds like the mash out really isn't necessary.

If that's true and this batch turns out tasty, I think I'll just sparge with 170 degree water after conversion from here on out....

 

[kh54s10]

Mash out is to raise the grain bed to at least 170 degrees which stops conversion and locks in the flavor profile. If you are doing a fly sparge and the grain bed does not reach 170+ conversion will continue. If you then take 60 minutes to fly sparge your flavor profile continues to change while sparging.

If you get what you like it doesn't matter. But if you fly sparge with 170 degree water and conversion has not stopped, you will not be able to reproduce this beer. There would be no way to hit the same conditions, the same way, again.

 

[CKing]

But I could change to batch sparging correct?

 

[doug293cz]

But I could change to batch sparging correct?

Yes.

Brew on

 

[Dogface79]

Its okay to add boiling water to the grain bed? I don't know what I'm doing and that's ok with me. Trying to learn fly sparge.

 

[doug293cz]

Its okay to add boiling water to the grain bed? I don't know what I'm doing and that's ok with me. Trying to learn fly sparge.

Yes, it's ok.

Brew on

 

[AntonioMartins]

Its okay to add boiling water to the grain bed? I don't know what I'm doing and that's ok with me. Trying to learn fly sparge.

No, it's not.

If you add boiling water, you highly increase the chances of tannins extraction, and can end with an astringent beer.

 

[doug293cz]

No, it's not.

If you add boiling water, you highly increase the chances of tannins extraction, and can end with an astringent beer.

Sorry, you are wrong. Do you know what a decoction mash is? Read up on it and you will understand that temp alone is not enough to extract tannins.

Tannin extraction comes primarily from letting the mash pH get too high (or too dilute) while sparging at high temps.

Brew on

 

[AntonioMartins]

Tannin extraction comes primarily from letting the mash pH get too high (or too dilute) while sparging at high temps.

Brew on

Yes, you is right.

But, what happens during the sparge? Specially on the end?

The wort get more and more diluted.

Then, diluted wort + high temperature = tannin (possible)

In my opinion, to use boiling water on sparge, is necessary keep strict control on the OG during the process, and stop when the wort get some "safety" level of dilution.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

In my opinion, to use boiling water on sparge, is necessary keep strict control on the OG during the process, and stop when the wort get some "safety" level of dilution.

I think Doug read the question the same way I did - "is it OK to add boiling water (infusion) to get to mashout temps" (answer is yes). On re-reading, Dogface79 may have been asking "is it OK to use boiling water for the fly sparge", in which case your answer of "No, it's not" is generally accepted as correct (fly sparge at about 170F).

 

[doug293cz]

I think Doug read the question the same way I did - "is it OK to add boiling water (infusion) to get to mashout temps" (answer is yes). On re-reading, Dogface79 may have been asking "is it OK to use boiling water for the fly sparge", in which case your answer of "No, it's not" is generally accepted as correct (fly sparge at about 170F).

Yes, I originally read it as adding boiling water for mash out.

Yes, you is right.

But, what happens during the sparge? Specially on the end?

The wort get more and more diluted.

Then, diluted wort + high temperature = tannin (possible)

In my opinion, to use boiling water on sparge, is necessary keep strict control on the OG during the process, and stop when the wort get some "safety" level of dilution.

Agreed, especially with the last paragraph.

Brew on

 

[Dogface79]

Thanks guys. Close to boiling temps to bring temp to 168 they fly with 170 were my intentions. Sorry for the confusion.