Mash Hopping?

[tchuklobrau]

I am going to make a harvest hop IPA and am considering this method. The recipe I have was extract, and they said to make a hop tea with some of the green hops and your steeping grains. So I plan to use the wet hops in the mash. Anyone else doing this? Any favored methods? Have hops in tun, add strike water, dough in? Strike water, partial dough, add hops, finish dough? Hops on top after dough in?

 

[opiate82]

I came across this thread after reading an article about must try hoppy beers. I was surprised how many of the beers listed did a mash hop, including one of my recent favorites, Ace of Spades-

3. Hopworks Organic Ace of Spades – Winning a gold medal at the 2009 Great American Beer Festival isn’t the only reason to try this phenomenal Imperial IPA from Portland’s Hopworks Urban Brewery, but it should be some indication to you just how killer it truly is. The annually released beast, available in 22-ounce bottles and on tap, serves up a boisterous 9.5% ABV and 100 IBU. A tribute to Motorhead frontman Lemmy Kilmister, the beer rocks equally as hard. Ace prominently features Amarillo, Cascade and Centennial hops, which the brewery say is added at every point of the brewing process: mash tun, first wort, kettle, and dry hop. All of the hoppy green goodness results in a beer with a huge citrus hop aroma, flavor and deep, clean bitterness. One of the finest hoppy treasures of all time, but don’t take our word for it, go snag yourself one when you can.

Here is the article for reference. http://brewpublic.com/beer-releases/50-must-try-hoppy-beers/

I was thinking of doing a run of SMaSH's and I may try this technique to see what happens.

 

[tgmartin000]

IIRC pliney is mash hopped. Seems like it would be similar to Fwh ..

I think green flash, for their palate wrecker, also hops the mash water and sparge water, too. It gives the bitterness "layers", for lack of a better term.

 

[tennesseean_87]

My friend at FatHead's in Cleveland gave me an IPA that they made with an experimental hop that they added at every point in production--mash, FWH, kettle, fermentation, and dry. Since they were added everywhere, I have no idea of the specific contribution of that one addition, but I was intrigued by the concept.

 

[blacksailj]

With this speculation of mash hopping has anyone made mash hop the only addition using 100% base malt to see the impact that it gives? If you do a 90+min boil you will see what is truely driven off or retained in the kettle. Like others have said I can see this working well with decoction mashes, then again the low temp/pH does catch my attention. Reading a BYO on Serria Nevadas Torpedo they state that after boil they wait till the wort is 180F before their Torpedo addition that sits for about 4 hours. At these low temps you get more flavor and aroma. Kind of on the far opposite side of mash hopping but I think it touches on the lower temperature side of hop usage.

 

[bobbrews]

I mash hopped, first-wort hopped, and bittered with the same, small amount of Columbus for a 120 IBU IPA. But I did not discriminate on the late aroma hops. I definitely added a bunch of those like always.

End result: It was smoother than my previous 60-90 IBU IPAs that were simply bittered or simply FWH'd. I did not think it lent anything to the aroma though... just the overall smoothness of the IPA.

 

[progmac]

i'm going to try this with my basic cream ale. 1 ounces in the mash and the usual 0.5 ounces for bittering. any effect will really shine through

 

[Denny's Evil Concoctions]

I mash hopped a pilsner and it took a ton of hops. Same effect at FWH but without most of the bittering since most of the hops remained in the mash.

 

[tre9er]

Does anyone have some hard-fast numbers on how long at what temp range it takes to achieve this sort of hop profile (mash hopping)? Ie. if I FWH but do a very slow runoff of second (and possibly third) runnings, the hops could spend upwards of 30-45 minutes at temps in the 150's before heating up to a boil. I'm guessing this would change the profile versus a "typical" FWH which only spends 10-15 minutes in that temp range while heating up to boil, right?

 

[bobbrews]

Isomerization of alpha acids is not occuring below 175-180 F, whether you're mash hopping or first wort hopping. When you exceed 180 F, you are beginning to extract bitterness via alpha acid isomerization.

*Mash hops are usually added at mash temps, e.g. 145-160 F
*FWH are usually first added at sparge temps and greater (but lower than a full rolling boil), e.g. 170-185 F
*Traditional boil hops are usually first added as soon as the wort reaches a full rolling boil, e.g. 208-212 F

For a multitude of individual brewing reasons that I don't really want to start a debate over, I am a firm believer in the last method for all American IIPAs and most American IPAs and hop heavy styles. Though, it is fine by me to Mash Hop or FWH plenty of other beer styles.

 

[Piratwolf]

if I FWH but do a very slow runoff of second (and possibly third) runnings, the hops could spend upwards of 30-45 minutes at temps in the 150's before heating up to a boil. I'm guessing this would change the profile versus a "typical" FWH which only spends 10-15 minutes in that temp range while heating up to boil, right?

FWIW, I FWH most of my beers and they almost always spend 30min+ before boil. I find the bitterness is still quite present, although it comes across different on the palate.

 

[tre9er]

FWIW, I FWH most of my beers and they almost always spend 30min+ before boil. I find the bitterness is still quite present, although it comes across different on the palate.

I FWH almost all of my beers, too, and my formulas say it provides less bittering than a 60M addition, but I wonder if that means some of the flavor/aroma sticks around, too? I don't mash hop mostly because I exchange my spent grain for eggs (as chicken feed) and I've heard the hops aren't good for chickens.

 

[bobbrews]

my formulas say it provides less bittering than a 60M addition, but I wonder if that means some of the flavor/aroma sticks around, too?

There's is a lower perceived bitterness from FWH, but the the actual IBUs are approx. 10% higher than a traditional bitter. Think about it. You're isomerizing the alpha acids for longer than you would if you just threw them into the rolling boil at the 60 min mark, so the IBU's have to be higher.

There is no measurable flavor difference in FWH versus Traditional Bitter (and Aroma is weak for both methods). Studies have proven any differences in flavor to be inconclusive (and otherwise meaningless) time and time again.

 

[tre9er]

There's is a lower perceived bitterness from FWH, but the the actual IBUs are approx. 10% higher than a traditional bitter. Think about it. You're isomerizing the alpha acids for longer than you would if you just threw them into the rolling boil at the 60 min mark, so the IBU's have to be higher.

There is no measurable flavor difference in FWH versus Traditional Bitter (and Aroma is weak for both methods). Studies have proven any differences in flavor to be inconclusive (and otherwise meaningless) time and time again.

The beginning of this thread mentioned something about oils bonding and thus not being broken down, due to holding a certain temp for a period of time (as in mash hopping). I guess I never saw a definitive answer on that, but I did see that a few commercial beers mash hop, so there has to be a reason. My question was that if I do a FWH that mimics mash hopping by holding hops at a certain temp, while not having to mix them with my grain, would I get a similar affect?

 

[bobbrews]

Not sure if this is the same guy who began this thread, but here is a study for you:

http://www.ahaconference.org/wp-content/uploads/presentations/2008/DennyConn.pdf

 

[Piratwolf]

I FWH almost all of my beers, too, and my formulas say it provides less bittering than a 60M addition, but I wonder if that means some of the flavor/aroma sticks around, too? I don't mash hop mostly because I exchange my spent grain for eggs (as chicken feed) and I've heard the hops aren't good for chickens.

D'oh! I should have remembered your comments from other FWH threads.

I definitely do get some flavor from FWH hops like Chinook, but that may be because it's Chinook & so noticeable.

From what I understand, there's a lot of great factual info from new studies in Stan Hieronymus' new book "For the Love of Hops" and I think I recall from the interview I heard with him that some has to do with FWH.

Cheers!

 

[tre9er]

Not sure if this is the same guy who began this thread, but here is a study for you:

http://www.ahaconference.org/wp-content/uploads/presentations/2008/DennyConn.pdf

Good info on FWH. Now are there any studies like this on Mash hopping?

 

[Denny]

Good info on FWH. Now are there any studies like this on Mash hopping?

The presentation is mine, but I'm not the guy who started the thread.

I did some experimentation with mash hopping years back. I took three recipes that I had brewed a lot and was very familiar with and added mash hops in addition to the normal hop additions. I couldn't detect any difference whatsoever between the mash hopped beers and the normally hopped beers.

 

[toledoBrewer]

I saw a Magic Hat #9 Clone earlier today that called for mash hopping and that got the gears in the brain turning. I made an ale a while back. Currently I have a few bottles left, and everyone loves it because it tastes like a light lager and people say they could drink a ton of them. But I was really hoping for more citrusy flavoring hop aroma to come through. After seeing the Magic Hat Clone recipe I was thinking of mash hopping to try and bring more hop aroma to come through. I'll try the pellets, adding 1.5x the flavoring hops, and then continuing onto the normal hop schedule. I can report back how this affected the flavor as compared to the current recipe.

 

[Denny]

I did several experiments and comparisons with mash hopping. IMO it's a waste of hops.

 

[tootal]

Well this has been a long and interesting conversation. I was in search of info on mash hopping since I now have a recipe for zoigl. In this recipe you only boil for 5 minutes so there would be no bitterness, just flavor and aroma. I was going to step mash but the gentleman who gave me the recipe is a big fan of decoction so I'm thinking that is why he was getting some bitterness in his beer. It was a wonderful beer when his brewery was open, too bad the management screwed it all up!
As far as FWH, I did this with my first IPA and loved it. You thought the hops were done tickling your tongue then 20 seconds later, BAM, you got hit with some more! We called it Aftershock IPA and it was a great beer. Need to do that again!

 

[No_Party]

I've been brewing the Cream of Three Crops recipe found here https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f62/cream-three-crops-cream-ale-66503/ for a while now as my goto summer ale and experiment base. I think I will add something like 3 oz of a "C" hop in the mash and not have any other hops additions to see what the results will be. I know what the base recipe taste and smells like so well that I think this is a worth while experiment. I will report back on it ASAP.

 

[Crucial-BBQ]

Mash hopping works best with soft water, which is probably why some swear by it and why some say it is a waste of hops.

Also, if you are going to bother with experimenting, and as home brewers you should, you need to examine not only the results but also potentially why you got those results even if they were favorable. If mash hopping sucked for you then perhaps try it with a different water profile, hop, or beer style before you proclaim "been there, done that, hated it". Otherwise the jury will still be out.

 

[wobdee]

I've been getting good results mash hopping my Lagers. I'm not looking for overpowering hop flavors or aromas, just a good balance and clean flavor. Mash hopping has done this for me.

 

[Denny]

I've been getting good results mash hopping my Lagers. I'm not looking for overpowering hop flavors or aromas, just a good balance and clean flavor. Mash hopping has done this for me.

Out of curiosity, have you compared them to exactly the same thing without mash hops?

 

[wobdee]

Out of curiosity, have you compared them to exactly the same thing without mash hops?

I've played around with the same Bo Pils recipe for over a year. I have changed the malt bill very little but have tried various hop additions and hop stands. It just seemed I couldn't get that smooth hop flavor, there was always a little harsh bite or aftertaste. Mash hopping seemed to cure that for me.

The other two beers I've been concentrating on is Munich Dunkel and Oktoberfest which are much more malt forward so these beers have less mash hops and just enough to balance the brew.

I also did a few IPL's with Maris Otter and Amarillo and Simcoe awhile back. I used double the amount of mash hops verses my Pils and I had very good hop aroma and flavor. I brought a couple growlers to my club and they were all impressed. Many couldn't believe I didn't dry hop them. These two beers pretty much convinced me mash hopping works.

It could also have something to do with my brewing system? I brew 2.5 gal BIAB with either a step mash or Schmitz Decoction so maybe the full volume and long mash rests help dissolve those hop oils a little better than a traditional mash?

 

[wobdee]

All those brews had 60 min bittering additions and the mash hops were the only other hop additions.

 

[Likefully]

I have done quite a quick scan of this thread and didn't see whether the following is answered.

Based on the chemistry described in this thread I think that mash hopping is a good way to get aroma from the hops into (and staying in) beers that are aged?

I am going to try it tonight - will add all the aroma hops in the mash and add a bittering hop as FWH. This is for an american brown ale which will get some honey in the boil to bring the ABV up so its good for ageing.

 

[wobdee]

Keep us posted on how it works out. How much and what type of hops are going into your brown ale?

 

[JF_HBrews]

I've been brewing the Cream of Three Crops recipe found here https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f62/cream-three-crops-cream-ale-66503/ for a while now as my goto summer ale and experiment base. I think I will add something like 3 oz of a "C" hop in the mash and not have any other hops additions to see what the results will be. I know what the base recipe taste and smells like so well that I think this is a worth while experiment. I will report back on it ASAP.

How did this turn out?