Mash Efficency Barrier

[digdan]

Trough my days of all-grain brewing I only a couple times measured an OG above 1.041. Today I tried to make an Imperial Pale Ale with a target OG of 1.076, and it landed at a 1.043.

The problem I face is not poor efficiency, since I can get 1.040ish OG from half the grain bill of that IPA, but rather an efficiency barrier.

If you have any insight, please let me know. This is my procedure :

1. I crack my grain rather fine with my Crankandstien.
2. I boil store bought spring water with a teaspoon of gypsum.
3. I wait for 170 degree F and throw into my Mash Tun
4. I hold 158 degree F mash for 45+ minutes.
5. I sparge with my first quart drained
6. I then sparge with 2 gallons of 168 degree water (same water, Store bought spring water + gypsum)
7. I run the water out very slowly into my boiling vessel.

My MashTun is an IceCube Cooler with a stainless steel "tube" filter, just like the one shown here :

http://www.antiochsudsuckers.com/tom/icecubemashtun.htm

I Sparge with a 2 Gallon Galvanized Garden Sprinkler I bought at Lowes, and I do keep the water about an inch above the bed.

 

[david_42]

For a high gravity ale, you have to do extra sparging and boil the wort down. There just isn't any way around it. Do a second sparge and maybe even a third. If your kettle isn't big enough for all three runs, boil and add until it all fits. You can keep the last sparge in the mash tun until there's room in the kettle.

 

[casebrew]

What was your grain bill? Wouldn't it take 12 pounds of grain to get 1.070 ? Is your hydrometer 'stuck' on 1.040?

Otherwise, you still have time to go dig some of your grains out of the compost heap, make a tea/sparge some more, see if the run off tastes sweet, or only like tea...

I have such a hard time getting my mash temps right that I end up with all 7 gallons in the mash. So I drain the mash, and taste the late run off, it is usually like tea, not sweet like the first runnins. I usually get 1.050 or so out of 9 pounds.

 

[ajf]

I usually brew with 7 lbs of 2 row, and 12 oz crystal. I use slightly over 2 gallons in the mash (at 154) and slightly more than 6 gallons (at 175) for fly sparging. The sparge water cools a bit going through the tubing to the sparge arm, and a typical sparge takes 1 1/4 - 1 1/2 hours. With this, I get a gravity of 1.053 to 1.054 after the boil.
From this, I would agree with Sluggo about extra sparging.

-a.

 

[Baron von BeeGee]

Are you measuring your gravity before or after boiling?

 

[ajf]

After boiling down to approx 5.5 gals.

-a.

 

[digdan]

I measure after mashing, and before boiling, I think this gives me the greatest accuracy on judging how well my mash went. Also, it would seem as if my hydrometer would be stuck around 1.040, but its near impossible for those things to inaccurate. Here was my grain bill :

16lbs Pale 2-row US
4lbs Vienna
.25lbs Roasted Barley


As you can see, thats over 20lbs of grain, which should not result in a 1.042ish OG.

Also, could someone give me more detail on how to do extra sparging? I don't quite understand it.

Also, I'm taking it that I will have to use some malt extract if I want to make a true Imperial Pale Ale


Thx for your helps

 

[Baron von BeeGee]

I agree the best time to take a gravity reading is after runoff and before boiling. A couple of things I can think of...

- are you taking your gravity reading at the temperature your hydrometer is calibrated for, or are you doing a temperature correction?
- what is your water/grain ratio for the mash? It should be somewhere between 1 and 2 qts per lb of grain.
- sparging 20lbs of grain with 2 gallons of water doesn't sound like enough to me to get the sugar out, but I batch sparge and don't have much experience with fly sparging.
- what is your initial volume collected? That could make a big difference as to how much since your 1.040 number makes. It's not uncommon when doing a big AG beer (without using extract to bump up the gravity) to boil 10 gallons down to 5.5. If you were to do that your 1.040 number would translate into 1.072 at 5.5 gallons.

 

[sebbeerbiker]

I measure after mashing, and before boiling, I think this gives me the greatest accuracy on judging how well my mash went. Also, it would seem as if my hydrometer would be stuck around 1.040, but its near impossible for those things to inaccurate. Here was my grain bill :

16lbs Pale 2-row US
4lbs Vienna
.25lbs Roasted Barley


As you can see, thats over 20lbs of grain, which should not result in a 1.042ish OG.

Also, could someone give me more detail on how to do extra sparging? I don't quite understand it.

Also, I'm taking it that I will have to use some malt extract if I want to make a true Imperial Pale Ale


Thx for your helps

A hydrometer won't get "stuck" at a certain value. It floats so the liquid density will determine how deep it sinks.

Have you done an iodine test at the end of your mash to see if you've gotten good conversion? I'm suspecting you might not be converting the starches due to improper pH in the mash tun. You say you use bottled water. What's the mineral profile on it?

Seb

 

[sebbeerbiker]

I measure after mashing, and before boiling, I think this gives me the greatest accuracy on judging how well my mash went. Also, it would seem as if my hydrometer would be stuck around 1.040, but its near impossible for those things to inaccurate. Here was my grain bill :

16lbs Pale 2-row US
4lbs Vienna
.25lbs Roasted Barley


As you can see, thats over 20lbs of grain, which should not result in a 1.042ish OG.

Also, could someone give me more detail on how to do extra sparging? I don't quite understand it.

Also, I'm taking it that I will have to use some malt extract if I want to make a true Imperial Pale Ale


Thx for your helps

Assuming you're making a 5 gallon batch, with a "normal efficiency of 75%, you should be able to get an OG 1.100!
Mind you this will require a very long sparge and a bigger volume to boil (probably 6.5 - 7 gallons) and a 1.5 - 2 hr boil.

When fly sparging, run the mash tun off at about 1qt per minute or less (yes this is slow but that's part of how to get good efficiency). As the liquid level gets to an inch above the grain, start adding hot water to the top of the grain bed trying not to disturb the grain. As you continuously runoff through the outlet, keep the water level above the grain. Continue to do this until you get your boil volume. Have about 6 gallons of sparge water ready before doing this.

At this point, your SG should be about 1.070 or so in the kettle.

Seb

 

[cgravier]

maybe your thermometer is not accurate.

try mashing for 90 minutes, (45 seems alittle short), do a protiein rest for 30 min.at 133 then a sach rest at 152 for 60 min.then a mash out at 170 for 10.

some places mash for 2.5 hours! (anchor steam)

i wouldnt go by an iodine test, i find that i get a negative(i.e. no more starch)after like ten minutes of mash time.i dont even do an iodine test any more.

use more sparge water/sparge longer

 

[digdan]

Thanks for your input everyone. I did actually have Iodine regent, and it did not come out dark at all.

I'm going to make a finer crush on my grain and follow everyones suggestions. I'll keep yall posted.

Thx

D

 

[Baron von BeeGee]

i wouldnt go by an iodine test, i find that i get a negative(i.e. no more starch)after like ten minutes of mash time.i dont even do an iodine test any more.

Are you stirring your mash before taking the iodine test? I find it to be pretty accurate as far as I can tell without real lab equipment to confirm it. I've had full conversion in 30 minutes which I understand isn't terribly uncommon with todays well modified grains, but I've never bothered to check any sooner than that.

 

[Stan Gibson]

I use RO water. To achieve a decent eff. I have to add:

http://www.morebeer.com/browse.html?keyword=5.2+ph

 

[BitterRat]

Trough my days of all-grain brewing I only a couple times measured an OG above 1.041. Today I tried to make an Imperial Pale Ale with a target OG of 1.076, and it landed at a 1.043.

The problem I face is not poor efficiency, since I can get 1.040ish OG from half the grain bill of that IPA, but rather an efficiency barrier.

If you have any insight, please let me know. This is my procedure :

1. I crack my grain rather fine with my Crankandstien.
2. I boil store bought spring water with a teaspoon of gypsum.
3. I wait for 170 degree F and throw into my Mash Tun
4. I hold 158 degree F mash for 45+ minutes.
5. I sparge with my first quart drained
6. I then sparge with 2 gallons of 168 degree water (same water, Store bought spring water + gypsum)
7. I run the water out very slowly into my boiling vessel.

My MashTun is an IceCube Cooler with a stainless steel "tube" filter, just like the one shown here :

http://www.antiochsudsuckers.com/tom/icecubemashtun.htm

I Sparge with a 2 Gallon Galvanized Garden Sprinkler I bought at Lowes, and I do keep the water about an inch above the bed.

Why do you mash at 158ºF ? For a big beer, that seems a bit high!
Me thinks you need to mash longer, 60 mins or more. Why do you throw in gypsum? do you have a water analysis for that bottled water?
After reading this a couple times, try another hydrometer and make sure your thermometer is accurate too.

 

[Darth Konvel]

- what is your initial volume collected? That could make a big difference as to how much since your 1.040 number makes. It's not uncommon when doing a big AG beer (without using extract to bump up the gravity) to boil 10 gallons down to 5.5. If you were to do that your 1.040 number would translate into 1.072 at 5.5 gallons.

This is probably the biggest factor you are looking at for correctly calculating your efficiency. Your gravity reading will swing dramatically depending on the volume of liquid in question.

 

[boo boo]

Try mashing at a lower temperture for longer than 45+ minutes. 45 minutes, while it should be enough time to convert, just might not be long enough. I mash for at least 60 minutes and sometimes longer. Do you check for starch conversion? Your lautering might be suspect also. Like most here, I get 1040-1050 out of 8 pounds or so of grain. What temperture are you checking the hydro sample at? Your hydrometer is calibrated for 60f or 68f. Do you check the PH of your mash? Ah, so many questions.

 

[RichBrewer]

Sounds to me like you are not using near enough water. The standard as about 1 quart of water per pound of grain for the mash and about 1/2 gallon of water per pound of grain for the sparge. If you did this you would need about 5 gallons of strike water for the mash and 10 gallons of sparge water. When finished with a 60 minute boil, I would estimate that you would have about 12 gallons of wort and you would have a starting gravity of 1.054 at 75% extraction effeciency.
I'm thinking you should be able to cut your grain bill a lot to get a 5 gallon batch with a SG of 1.076.Just remember to use the proper ammount of water.

Example for 5 1/2 gallon at 75% effeciency:

2 Row 10 Lbs
Vienna 3 Lbs
Roasted barly .25 Lbs

3 1/4 gallons water for Mash
6 1/2 gallons for fly sparge
approx 1 1/4 gallon absorbed by the grain
approx 8 1/2 gallons of wort in the boil kettle
boil down to 5 1/2 gallons. (a long boil!)
SG 1.074
I think I would go for DME to replace some of that 2 row so you don't have to boil so much wort.

 

[Lost]

You've got plenty of grains and then some.. I can usually hit 1.065 with my crappy setup (copper manifold and cooler) and that's before boiling (temp corrected of course) from 11 or 12 lbs of grains (7 or 8 lbs base malt) only sparging once (continuous sparge using a plain only plastic hose - no fancy sparge arm or anything). Point is, there's definately something wrong - see #1 below:


1. slow down that sparge, do not exceed 1 qt per minute - make sure that sprinkler is not flowing more water than you think. IF the runnings fall to or below 1.008 SG before you expect them to (i.e. at the end of the sparge) then you are no doubt sparging too fast. As others have pointed out, if your SG before the boil is lower than your target you can boil the batch down to make room for additional wort... then do another sparge to get that volume back up and boil it down again. This is assuming you have a small boiling kettle where space is limited.. if you have a pony keg or some such then just sparge until your runnings drop to 1.008 - you should have quite a bit of wort at this point - then boil that sucker vigorously for an hour or so to get the volume back down and concentrate the wort. Really, this technique is something that, as others have said, is pretty much only necessary if you're shooting for a high % beer (i.e. imperial stout) - keep reading to see why.

***I can't believe that you're only sparging with 2 gallons of water.. there's way more sugar left in those grains! This is why homebrewers need to boil the wort down to create a high % beer. To understand lets start by having another look at your receipe: you've got 20lbs of grain, at 1.3 qts per lb that amounts to 26 quarts or 6.5 gallons of water in the mash alone! At 1.5 qts per lb of grain you'd have 7.5 gallons of mash water. Now, some of that water will be soaked up by the grains - the accepted figure is around .1 gal per lb.. that means with your 20lbs of grain you'll soak up 2 gallons of water leaving you with 4.5 or 5.5 gallons of wort that would drain out of the tun *before sparging*!!! Assuming you're using the customary 32 qt/8gal pot that came with your turkey fryer you'd have a pretty much full pot.. there's not much room left for sparging.. maybe 2 gallons at most (if you go with a thicker mash of 1.33 qts per lb) and this is, not surprisingly, exactly how much water you say that you used to sparge. This is you're problem.. you've got enough grains there to make 2 batches easily or one very very high gravity batch but you have to sparge to get the sugar out and you probably don't have a kettle big enough for it. This is the problem discussed above.. to get the full amount of sugar out of your grains you'd have to boil that batch down and sparge again until the kettle is full, then boil it down again and sparge some more, then.. well you get the picture.. you'd do this until you've thoroughly rinsed the grains (until the runoff drops to or below 1.008 SG). As a general rule of thumb you should sparge with 1 to 2 times the volume of your mash - Palmer recommends 1.5. If we go with the 1.5 figure then that means that you need to sparge with anywhere from 9.75 to 11.25 gallons (depending on mash thickness). That means your total preboil volume would be a whopping 16.75 gallons (using a 1.5 qts per lb mash)! You can imagine that if you boiled this down to a 5 gallon batch size you'd have one hell of a high gravity beer! Your mistake here is thinking that simply adding more grains will correct for inefficiency and will result in higher gravity or more wort. This is only the case if you actually rinse the sugar from the grains.. in you're case you're just throwing it away by not sufficiently sparging. This is, no doubt, you're biggest problem. Though there certainly are other factors that could contribute to your efficiency - sparge rate or manifold design to name a few obvious ones - I'd suggest you correct your sparging technique before you try anything else.

2. check your manifold configuration. See Palmer's "how to brew" for good instructions on what to do and what not to do when configuring your manifold. The link posted with the ss braided hose setup is not so great because the hose is close to the sides of the tun - this promotes channeling and can be very detrimental to your efficiency. You need to be sure that your manifold/hose is layed out appropriately.

I hope this was helpful... happy brewing and happier brew drinking!

 

[Beermaker]

Damn fine problem solving Lost.....I was thinking along those lines, just not as deep.

 

[Lost]

Thanks, but Rich definitely beat me to it...

I read these forums a lot but don't often get the urge to post since the resident experts usually say everything I'm thinking and then some. Plus, they do it succintly.. something I have a problem with.

 

[digdan]

Taking everyones advice I was able to get 1.072 on my Maibock.

In retrospect my main issue was crap grain, water pH, and sparge speed.