Mash&Boil vs Robo Brew

[chuckalhashib]

I'm leaning toward this over the GF, but I'd like to get a CFC of some stripe too. @mhochman, did you use the included IC or some other method? When you say some wort was left under the false bottom, does that mean you used the valve on the unit rather than pump the wort to the fermenter?

Cheers

 

[mhochman]

I'm leaning toward this over the GF, but I'd like to get a CFC of some stripe too. @mhochman, did you use the included IC or some other method? When you say some wort was left under the false bottom, does that mean you used the valve on the unit rather than pump the wort to the fermenter?

Cheers

I used the included chiller and it worked perfectly. The vessel is very tall and thin, and the chiller gets pretty deep. I have a CFC and a different IC. My existing IC is too wide and not nearly deep enough and with how well the included chiller works, I have no plans to try the CFC with it. So much easier to clean an IC!

For your other question, yes I used the valve only and did not pump the wort out at all. I don't own a pump, other than the k e built into the RB. I suppose I could use the built in pump and attach a tube from the end of the recirculation arm to a fermenter, but I'm not sure it's worth it. Something to think about. Do people do that with the GF?

 

[chuckalhashib]

Thanks for the reply. I'm curious about how long it took to chill--of course there are many variables. I'm looking for a system that doesn't need much babysitting nor makes for a long brew day once I get used to the process, and a CFC seems like it would be a time-saver--advantage GF. However, the RB is much cheaper, and adding a CFC would be less than the GF still.

Maybe I'll give the included IC a try before I get a CFC and use my old IC as a pre-chiller.

 

[Chromedome93]

Don't forget to factor in the time to clean that CFC.

 

[mhochman]

Thanks for the reply. I'm curious about how long it took to chill--of course there are many variables. I'm looking for a system that doesn't need much babysitting nor makes for a long brew day once I get used to the process, and a CFC seems like it would be a time-saver--advantage GF. However, the RB is much cheaper, and adding a CFC would be less than the GF still.

Maybe I'll give the included IC a try before I get a CFC and use my old IC as a pre-chiller.

I don't think I marked it in my notes, but I'm pretty sure I took a look at the clock at the start and end of chilling, and it was about 25 minutes.

 

[mhochman]

Don't forget to factor in the time to clean that CFC.

What he said. Plenty easy to hose the IC down while oxygenating the wort.

 

[skraeling]

What he said. Plenty easy to hose the IC down while oxygenating the wort.

I have zero issues keeping my cfc clean. Run hot water through it and call it a day.

 

[chuckalhashib]

Don't forget to factor in the time to clean that CFC.

I don't think I marked it in my notes, but I'm pretty sure I took a look at the clock at the start and end of chilling, and it was about 25 minutes.

Is IC chilling + cleaning time < CFC chilling + cleaning time? Hosing down an IC certainly doesn't take long--good point.

I have zero issues keeping my cfc clean. Run hot water through it and call it a day.

I was thinking of doing CIP on the whole system, CFC included. I guess I need to backflush, too, but that doesn't take much effort, right? Just reconnect hoses and run water.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

My oxygenation stone is built into my plate chiller set up and I don't think it takes very long to clean effectively if you've already drug out the pump. BUT in my neverending mission to simplify, I love brew days with my BIAB rig in which I never have to pull out the chugger pump at all...I'm leaning towards eliminating the pump and the plate chiller and buying a Jaded Hydra!

 

[augiedoggy]

I have zero issues keeping my cfc clean. Run hot water through it and call it a day.

Im trying to understand how its different than cleaning an ic chiller myself? wort still travels inside the long coiled copper tubing right? hot or boiling liquid sanitizes than and as long as its rinsed directly after use it should stay pretty clean. thats what I do with my plate chiller.

 

[processhead]

Im trying to understand how its different than cleaning an ic chiller myself? wort still travels inside the long coiled copper tubing right? hot or boiling liquid sanitizes than and as long as its rinsed directly after use it should stay pretty clean. thats what I do with my plate chiller.

I don't think there is a big difference. I suspect that because the interior of a CFC or plate chiller is inaccessible, some people obsess about them more.

While you can't ignore cleaning and sanitizing them, you just have to do it right and be confident you are getting them clean.

Since you are literally sterilizing a CFC or plate chiller by circulating boiling wort through a it, I suspect that having them physically clean might actually be a little less critical than if you used a contact sanitizer like star-san.

 

[skraeling]

Is IC chilling + cleaning time < CFC chilling + cleaning time? Hosing down an IC certainly doesn't take long--good point.


I was thinking of doing CIP on the whole system, CFC included. I guess I need to backflush, too, but that doesn't take much effort, right? Just reconnect hoses and run water.

for what its worth my cfc will chill my wort to pitching temp in under 3minutes even with my ground water being close to 80* at this point.


Ill rinse everything off with hot water (since I brew right next to my sink in my kitchen). Get as much junk out as I can fill with hot water and flush the CFC out till it runs clear for a few minutes. Drain it best I can nothing crazy like blowing it out.

Then depending on how many brews I have done or if I scorched anything above the element ill fill with water set the temp to 130ish and let it recirc for a few hours with pbw while i do stuff like cut the lawn laundry whatever really.

Drain all the pbw into the sink. Rinse with water, rinse again with water. Run clean water through the system, pump that all out and let dry.

 

[augiedoggy]

for what its worth my IC will chill my wort to pitching temp in under 3minutes even with my ground water being close to 80* at this point.

I have a tough time seeing how water above pitching temps can bring wort down lower than its own temp with any chiller let alone in 3 mins and with an IC chiller... Id love to know your secret here?

Are you pitching above 80? It honestly takes me longer than three minutes to even bring 5 gallons down to pitching temps this time of year with my plate chiller.

 

[skraeling]

I have a tough time seeing how water above pitching temps can bring wort down lower than its own temp with any chiller let alone in 3 mins and with an IC chiller... Id love to know your secret here?

Are you pitching above 80? It honestly takes me longer than three minutes to even bring 5 gallons down to pitching temps this time of year with my plate chiller.

dammit it i typod... my COUNTER flow chiller. I have a grainfather atm that I use the hell out of.

 

[TexasWine]

for what its worth my cfc will chill my wort to pitching temp in under 3minutes even with my ground water being close to 80* at this point.

To auggie's point, how do you chill to pitching temp with ground water that warm? Your wort outlet temperature will never be below your water inlet temperature. The best heat exchangers will have an approach temperature of around 2-3F, meaning your wort outlet will be a few degrees warmer than your water. As a reference, we typically design shell and tube exchangers with a 10F approach. Brazed aluminum can be around 3F approach.

 

[skraeling]

To auggie's point, how do you chill to pitching temp with ground water that warm? Your wort outlet temperature will never be below your water inlet temperature. The best heat exchangers will have an approach temperature of around 2-3F, meaning your wort outlet will be a few degrees warmer than your water. As a reference, we typically design shell and tube exchangers with a 10F approach. Brazed aluminum can be around 3F approach.

maybe cool enough to pitch would be a better word to use. Ill lower it to fermenting temp with my ferm fridge. I pretty much just get it cool enough and dump yeast in and stick it into the fridge and finish cooling it down.

 

[chuckalhashib]

Plate vs CF? Discuss. Thanks.

Also, how tall are the GF and RB when sparging?

 

[chezhed]

Questions for anyone with the Robobrew...
Is the valve on the end of the pipe from the pump a check valve?
Does anyone have the inside dimensions of the unit and the "mash pipe?"
Many of these parts look identical to the Grainfather so I'm wondering if any of them are interchangeable, like the false bottom or the plates.
Does that plastic knob get knocked off when pouring in grain?

A big difference I see on the two is the CFC on the GF and also the pump access. And the new GF does have the connectivity and program capability for step mash and such. Also the control panel is at the top of the GF; not an issue if you brew on a countertop but definitely a pain if you put units on the floor. And parts can be replaced much easier on the GF it appears....temp sensor, pump, overload switch, control unit. The CFC can easily have an outflow thermometer on it also. All this is what makes the price higher I believe.

As for cooling wort, I cannot use ground water with any decent results except maybe in January so i have a cheap pond pump that I use to recirculate ice water. I also pump from the GF to fermenters thru 10 feet of silicon hose with an inline O2 set up. My wort is 68F and takes 20 minutes and 20 lbs of bulk ice.....every time. Cleanup is simple...run hot water through it for several minutes at the sink or attach it to the other GF and run hot mash water through....yeah, I have 2

I'm a little leery of the Robobrew holding up and without the pump, don't see any advantage over an electric boil kettle. I have dismantled a GF that was damaged in shipment and repaired it. Short of a busted/caved tank, it's all serviceable. And I have mistakenly left the pump and low set heater running on a cleaning cycle at 120F for 5 straight days.....no failure.

 

[Blackmuse]

Im trying to understand how its different than cleaning an ic chiller myself? wort still travels inside the long coiled copper tubing right? hot or boiling liquid sanitizes than and as long as its rinsed directly after use it should stay pretty clean. thats what I do with my plate chiller.

An Ic chiller has cold water running trough it and it is the outside that comes in contact with the wort vs the inside. Anyway, I think chillers can best be discussed elsewhere. The robobrew comes with an ic - use it or use what you already have.

Back to the actual product - does it save time or simplify the brew day? How does it compare to BIAB? Is it worth buying if I already have a BIAB setup with an outside gas burner?

 

[augiedoggy]

An Ic chiller has cold water running trough it and it is the outside that comes in contact with the wort vs the inside. Anyway, I think chillers can best be discussed elsewhere. The robobrew comes with an ic - use it or use what you already have.

Back to the actual product - does it save time or simplify the brew day? How does it compare to BIAB? Is it worth buying if I already have a BIAB setup with an outside gas burner?

Well I thought we were discussing the product as its configured and the pros and cons of the two systems compared to each. I someone wanted to be negative they could break down every component and say the same about it... The only thing somewhat unique to it would be the modified controller designed to run it and the only things different about it and the mash in boil is the chiller thats not included in the M&B and pump and software/controller that I see making it a more complete knockoff of the grainfather...

Discussing whether the included chiller and other differences are even worth it as an advantage to many is an important point in deciding between the two right? This was a valid discussion especially if theres conceptions involved that someone with actual experience can clear up or confirm.
For example, If 80% of users think the included IC is a step backwards and use a different chiller than its one "advantage" that can be crossed off the list for them right? Same goes for the built in $15 pump, which im sure works great but some may not think so (how do you clean it? same as a counterflow or plate chiller right? which could both be cleaned at the same time together realistically not taking up any more or less time) These things can tip the scale for some who already have what they feel are better components to use with it.

You made a comment that its off topic and then go on to look for answers to your own questions that are not really part or topic outlined in the title of this thread either. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black... and you cant deny it with your screenname

 

[Blackmuse]

Well I thought we were discussing the product as its configured and the pros and cons of the two systems compared to each. I someone wanted to be negative they could break down every component and say the same about it... The only thing somewhat unique to it would be the modified controller designed to run it and the only things different about it and the mash in boil is the chiller thats not included in the M&B and pump and software/controller that I see making it a more complete knockoff of the grainfather...

Discussing whether the included chiller and other differences are even worth it as an advantage to many is an important point in deciding between the two right? This was a valid discussion especially if theres conceptions involved that someone with actual experience can clear up or confirm.
For example, If 80% of users think the included IC is a step backwards and use a different chiller than its one "advantage" that can be crossed off the list for them right? Same goes for the built in $15 pump, which im sure works great but some may not think so (how do you clean it? same as a counterflow or plate chiller right? which could both be cleaned at the same time together realistically not taking up any more or less time) These things can tip the scale for some who already have what they feel are better components to use with it.

You made a comment that its off topic and then go on to look for answers to your own questions that are not really part or topic outlined in the title of this thread either. Talk about the pot calling the kettle black... and you cant deny it with your screenname

If you look back, the thread started to become dominated by plate chiller Versus immersion chiller - I do not think a plate chiller is even included with either the robo or the m&b. I only addressed someone's confusion between Ic and pc to be polite and then move on with the discussion. I don't think I'm the only one looking to move onto points about the actual product and its performance.

Sorry if I came off abrasive - not my intent.

 

[augiedoggy]

If you look back, the thread started to become dominated by plate chiller Versus immersion chiller - I do not think a plate chiller is even included with either the robo or the m&b. I only addressed someone's confusion between Ic and pc to be polite and then move on with the discussion. I don't think I'm the only one looking to move onto points about the actual product and its performance.

Sorry if I came off abrasive - not my intent.

Fair enough No worries, Mentioned a plate chiller only to point out they are extremely easy to clean and address another persons cleaning concerns. The mash and boil doesnt include and chiller so the point may very well have been that it leaves the choice open for one of the better performing types like the cfc or plate chiller.

 

[GJOCONNELL]

honestly I plunked down for RB and I plan on using my dual CFC which I have on a stand. I already have the chugger pump(s). I can just use an extra kettle with PBW to flush out the CFC, rinse with warm water, then flush with star san.

I like being able to chill quickly with the dual CFC

 

[noslenwerd]

Any reviews on how the actual beer brewed on the system turned out?

Thinking about getting this, but am on the fence.

 

[mhochman]

Any reviews on how the actual beer brewed on the system turned out?

Thinking about getting this, but am on the fence.

My first batch went into the keg yesterday. It's an American wheat, so I can't talk about clarity, but I will report next week when it's ready. It tasted good in my quick sample/sip. Numbers have been spot on without using rice hulls or any other items/steps/procedures outside the instructions provided by the manufacturer.

 

[augiedoggy]

So the manufacturer of the mash and boil sent me an email yesterday (must have a way to see who looks at their webpage on alibaba.) They sent me a quote for $170 per unit if I wanted to order 50 units or less which a lot more than their web page had listed which likely for much larger orders or without the accessories . Still worth mentioning I guess since wholesale pricing is a better indication of build quality for those researching it to make their decision.

 

[TANSTAAFB]

Was there a minimum order? The American distributors are still getting almost 100% markup at THAT price, and are buying in significantly higher quantities at a negotiated price. I like these things but they are just Chinese urns on steroids

 

[augiedoggy]

Was there a minimum order? The American distributors are still getting almost 100% markup at THAT price, and are buying in significantly higher quantities at a negotiated price. I like these things but they are just Chinese urns on steroids

Well a number of ads on alibaba state they can be purchased for as little as $60 depending on features and quantity... I was just quoted for 50 or less... this was configured with 2500w though and I believe the ones Williams sells for the US market are reconfigured for more. that could add to the cost.

ymmv but in this case the manufacturer is the one that makes the mash and boil but I've found similiar high markups with other things like the tri clover based 5500w ripple elements with the 30a nema power connectors built in.
I bought mine through alibaba for $16 each vs the $75 each the element configuration would cost through a local distributor.. Nothing new really 100% markups or more is common on some things. the manufacturer that makes the ones that brewboss imports and sells to brewhardware may charge more for them so that could impact the price a bit but common logic tells me if I by direct from any manufacturer the price will be better than buying from a distributor who buys them from another distributor who then buys them from? that there will be higher costs due to all the reselling markups. In my line of work 400% markups due to this are not even uncommon.
The DC brewing pumps brau supply used to sell for $50 were only $15 on ebay from the same manufacturer only without the $3 wall wort power supply.

 

[theeremite]

Does anyone have experience with the pump (v3) an non-pump (v2) versions of the robobrew? I'm curious about the changes in software. V3 looks more programmable

 

[AZ_Jack]

I understand that there are a few big threads on this topic. I've searched and read through most of them. Please forgive my ignorance but I'm asking for the community help on this direct comparison. I've done all-grain brewing with a hack setup (though VERY happy with my hack brew results!) for several years. Going through a lengthy divorce with much of my gas burned based equipment poorly stored I thought I'd see what new things are out there. I am very intrigued by the electronic systems. A long brew day is fine, so longer times to reach temps is fine with me. I am one of those who loathes the cleanup after the brew day. Give me a longer day and less clean up, I'm good.

Please offer this electric neophyte your opinion between the

M&B found here: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B075NNZ3KT/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

and

Robobrew version found here: https://www.amazon.com/dp/B074DB6WY3/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20