Marzen - Critique

[seabrew8]

Hi folks,

I've recently made Dan's marzen and its a real winner - my father loves it. So to make things fun i decided to make some change!s A lot! Isn't that what home brewing is all about?

While the recipe online gives it a 13 SRM when i put it into brewers friend it was just shy of 10 SRM. Not sure why. Being that i love amber looking beer i decided to add more color and has well some victory - i love malty beers! And i also decided to try a totally new hop schedule for me and my new favorite saaz - every commerical beer i drink that uses saaz seems to rise to the top for my tastes.

This is what i came up with.

5.25 gal batch

46% Pilsner
46% Munich 10L
4% C60
4% Victory

Hops:

1.5 oz Saaz for 35min
1 oz Saaz for 10 min

O.G: 1.058
IBU: 22
SRM: 12

34/70 yeast at about 54f

 

[dmtaylor]

That looks great. Enjoy!

 

[seabrew8]

Thanks, Dave.

I have a question for you, unrelated. I just read on a forum that most malting companies just blend 8-10L munich with pilsner to produce there vienna malts?

You know anything about this?

 

[thehaze]

I too have read the same, quite recently on some forums. If they do, then you are actually buying 15% Munich and the rest is 2-row/Pilsner malt, which kinda sucks.

If this is true, then it is dissapointing. This is why I love Marris Otter ( the one which is not blended*! ) for anything that does not require a lighter base malt ( belgians ).

 

[seabrew8]

I too have read the same, quite recently on some forums. If they do, then you are actually buying 15% Munich and the rest is 2-row/Pilsner malt, which kinda sucks.

If this is true, then it is dissapointing. This is why I love Marris Otter ( the one which is not blended*! ) for anything that does not require a lighter base malt ( belgians ).

If indeed it true its kinda of disappointing. But on the flip side a sack of munich will go a long ways!

I'm actually going to do a test, two 5.25 gallon batches one with 20% vienna and 80% pilsner. Then 95% pilsner and 5% munich 10L. Exact same hops. And both 10lb grain bills.

Using brewersfriend, its very close to the same SRM - 4.

So i'm using a 25% munich malt and 75% pilsner malt for my blended Vienna for the second batch.

 

[dmtaylor]

Thanks, Dave.

I have a question for you, unrelated. I just read on a forum that most malting companies just blend 8-10L munich with pilsner to produce there vienna malts?

You know anything about this?

I've never heard that before and I seriously doubt it is true, at least in Europe and North America -- I dare not speak on behalf of any other continents. Shame on them if it is true. Vienna malt should have its own distinct flavors.

 

[Lefou]

Mixing Pilsner and Munich doesn't make Vienna!
It's technically adulteration.
It could yield an equivalent Lovibond rating, but it isn't right - not to me, anyway. If I was King I'd send whoever did that to the Pit of Misery for a proper flogging.

 

[Smellyglove]

Why the caramel and Victory? That's not needed if you use good malts. A Marzen only needs pilsner, munich or vienna malts.

Edit: Sorry, My mind was occupied with the tought of "marzen", not how you want it to end up, so go a head

 

[thehaze]

Regarding OP's question and my reply, that I read something about Vienna being blended...

I sent Weyermann an email and got this reply:

" Thank you for your email.

Weyermann® produces different Pale Malt Types (e.g. Weyermann® Pilsner Malt, Weyermann® Premium® Pilsner Malt , Weyermann® Barke® Pilsner Malt, Weyermann® Bohemian® Malt) as well as Weyermann® Pale Ale Malt and Weyermann® Vienna Malt and Weyermann® Barke® Vienna Malt.

All these products (just like ALL Weyermann® products) are produced, stored and packed separately.

For color correction in Pale Ale Malt and Vienna Malt a minor blending with Munich Malt or Pilsner Malt might be necessary.

Kind regards from Bamberg "

 

[seabrew8]

So they do in fact do it. How much i wouldn't guess, its not like they would say its usual. If that got out they would lose all there vienna sales.

I will be doing the above test i posted for sure!!

For anyone thats interested this is where i seen these comments. Also note the results of the experiment - basically they made one beer with 100% light munich and another 100% Vienna. The take home was a little over half could tell the difference BUT they tasted very similar.

http://brulosophy.com/2017/12/11/grain-comparison-vienna-malt-vs-munich-malt-exbeeriment-results/

 

[Lefou]

"We make all these nice specialty malts, but just in case you don't have them, you can futz a couple base malts together in a pinch."



I get it.

 

[seabrew8]

Lefou, in all seriousness have you seen these companies malting? You just take there word on blind faith?

Your sarcasm is not welcome.

sarcasm (särˈkăzˌəm)
►

• n.
  A cutting, often ironic remark intended to wound.
• n.
  A form of wit that is marked by the use of sarcastic language and is intended to make its victim the butt of contempt or ridicule.

 

[thehaze]

He does say " for color correction " ... I would not know what to make of this. If the Vienna malt they produce is not dark enough, I guess they could throw some Munich in there to adjust colour.

But it seems weird their Pale Ale malt ( darker than regular Pale malt ) and Vienna malt are the ones being adjusted. I guess they are both the same Pale Ale malt and the Pale Ale malt gets some Pilsner to make it lighter and Vienna gets some Munich, for to darken it.

I don't know...Would be cool though to send some email to the likes of The Swaen and Chateau Malting and ask the same on their Vienna malt, which I know is comparable with the Weyermann type, at least in terms of color / Lovibond. ( english Vienna and Munich are much, much darker and not really relevant )

 

[seabrew8]

Its not totally important to me either way honestly. I was just curious. If the above experiment is anything to go by even munich and vienna taste similar at any rate. People tend to hold onto beliefs. I'm of the mindset of believing in direct experience, lots of things are illusions and lies.

I just bought a sack of bestmalz munich just before i seen this information so i was like - "i can make some rough vienna out of my munich and pilsner!"

And indeed thats what i will be doing.

 

[Lefou]

Like I said, I get it. Lighten up, please.
In proper combinations two different malts can mimic color and gravity, but the taste may be a bit off. It's why I can use American pale, chocolate, and white wheat to mimic a North German Altbier with the right hops and German yeast.
Is it technically an Altbier? mmmmaybe ...

The brew calculator says it's a reasonable approximation, but my taster probably will say "no" and the Germans will laugh.

I try to go by BJCP as much as possible and get the most authentic grains for certain brews. When distributors mix and match "this n' that" and say "well, it's close enough", it makes me a bit prickly ... but then again, I used to work for the US government as a contractor and understand the "plus or minus 20% is good enough" standard and roll with it.