Maris Otter

[schematix]

On a whim I grabbed myself up a 25kg sack of Thomas Fawcett Floor Malted Maris Otter a few weeks ago.

I've used it before but it was always in a dark ale, hidden by other deep crystal and roasted malts.

Those beers all turned out great, but I am looking for recipe suggestions for how to showcase this malt in a simpler way. Ideally it would be on the lighter side (my pilsner keg is almost tapped), but that light isn't necessary; nor is a SMaSH. I have essentially no limits in regards to ingredient access or process control.

Fire away.

 

[PeteNMA]

MO:EKG

MO:Cascade

No reason to avoid the smash. Embrace it

 

[schematix]

MO:EKG

MO:Cascade

No reason to avoid the smash. Embrace it

Yeast / hopping schedule suggestions?

 

[TallDan]

MO makes a great SMASH IMO.

I recently bought a sack of Fawcett MO as well. I bought it because I was planning to brew some big stouts with it and didn't think I had enough on hand. Turned out I had ~38lb on hand on top of the new 55lb sack, so now i have over 50lb of MO on hand and more than enough RIS fermenting to last for a while...

Of course english styles are the obvious choice for MO. American brown ales do nicely with it. You see a fair amount of pale ales with 2row and a small amount of biscuit malt. You could probably sub MO both of those grains and be near the same place. Or just straight sub MO for 2row in a pale recipe, you might just like it that way!

 

[schematix]

Ever tried a SMaSH lager with it? Perhaps something like a vienna?

 

[Qhrumphf]

90% Maris Otter
5% medium English crystal malt (aim for 40-80L, I like Crisp 45L and 77L, either would work great)
5% lighter invert sugar. If you don't want to make invert sugar, use Lyle's Golden Syrup, which is available at most grocery stores, sometimes in the baking section with other sugars, sometimes in the ethnic section if theres a "British" portion.

I'd go 1.040 or so and 35-40 IBUs. Small late hop of English hops (Fuggles or EKG would be classic, but Challenger is a preferred hop of mine, Progress, Bramling Cross, WGV). And then a good English yeast. S04 would work, but I'd go WY1469 or WY1318 personally (I do love the WY1469).

 

[meatcleaver]

+1 MO/EKG SMASH. ferment with Nottingham

 

[schematix]

First pass at a recipe below. This also happens to meet a goal of mine to make an extremely simply beer that doesn't require a lot of prep work or brewing time.

For a 10G batch:
18lbs MO (expecting 1.050'ish)

Mash 1.5qt/lb @ 154F for 60 minutes. Raise to 169F and hold for 10 mins.

4oz EKG @ 60 min
1oz EKG @ 20 min
2oz EKG @ 5 min

Ferment with Notty.

Water will be Brun'Water Yellow Full profile built from RODI water and salts.

 

[PeteNMA]

Looks like a good place to start.

 

[mongoose33]

First pass at a recipe below. This also happens to meet a goal of mine to make an extremely simply beer that doesn't require a lot of prep work or brewing time.

For a 10G batch:
18lbs MO (expecting 1.050'ish)

Mash 1.5qt/lb @ 154F for 60 minutes. Raise to 169F and hold for 10 mins.

4oz EKG @ 60 min
1oz EKG @ 20 min
2oz EKG @ 5 min

Ferment with Notty.

Water will be Brun'Water Yellow Full profile built from RODI water and salts.

Here's what I'm doing, 5-gallon batch:

8.5 lbs 8.0 oz Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 1 65.4 %
3.5 lbs 8.0 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 2 26.9 %
1 lbs Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 3 7.7 %
1.00 oz Northern Brewer [8.50 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 4 27.6 IBUs
2.00 oz Goldings, B.C. [5.00 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 5 6.5 IBUs
1.0 pkg SafAle English Ale (DCL/Fermentis #S-04) [23.66 ml] Yeast 6 -

I'm getting about 6.7 ABV, so I'd say your 1.050 is in the ballpark.

You're going to be hoppier than mine, but I'd drink it.

I like what Maris Otter does in my brews, thinking about doing a SMASH with it as well. Might have to take a shot at yours here and see how it goes. I'm looking for something to brew, and that's pretty simple. I need to get some more EKG though.

 

[kh54s10]

I substitute MO for any percentage (0-100% of a recipe's base malt) of standard 2 row, whenever I want a little more complexity to the flavor. Usually pale ales that are a large percent of just a base malt.

 

[schematix]

I'm going by the LHBS to get the last of the ingredients tomorrow.

Still planning to use Notty since I want to keep things simple. I understand this strain can tolerate a fairly low temp and be quite clean.

Any suggestion on fermentation temp to make a beer appropriate for the style?

 

[govner1]

On a whim I grabbed myself up a 25kg sack of Thomas Fawcett Floor Malted Maris Otter a few weeks ago.



I've used it before but it was always in a dark ale, hidden by other deep crystal and roasted malts.



Those beers all turned out great, but I am looking for recipe suggestions for how to showcase this malt in a simpler way. Ideally it would be on the lighter side (my pilsner keg is almost tapped), but that light isn't necessary; nor is a SMaSH. I have essentially no limits in regards to ingredient access or process control.



Fire away.

66% German Pilsner
30% MO
4% Crystal 20
All CTZ
WY1056

 

[schematix]

Here's what I ended up doing:

10 gallons:

18lbs MO
1lb Crisp Crystal 45L

Mashed 1.5qt/lb @ 154F for 60 minutes. Raised to 169F and held for 10 mins.

Water was Brun'Water Yellow Full profile built from RODI water and salts. All salts added to mash to eliminate need for acid.

4oz EKG (5.7% AA) @ 60 min
4oz EKG (5.7% AA) @ 5 min

Recirc chilled to 110F in 10 minutes. Allowed to settle for 30 minutes. Then chilled remaining on last pass into fermented, attaining about 80F.

OG was 1.051.

Fermented with dry Notty at 62F for 5 days. Raised to 72 for 5 days.

FG was 1.008 for an ABV of ~5.6%.

I just kegged it so i won't be sampling for another ~2 weeks. Initial taste was that it was extremely dry and bitter. Right away this makes me think it would be a great base for an IPA.

 

[TasunkaWitko]

I recently brewed a beer that was 50% Maris Otter, 50% wheat - I called it Das OtterWeizen. It seems like a really good combination.

I just made up a hop schedule off the cuff; I bottled it a week ago, so I'm not sure how it is turning out quote yet. The small sample I had left over at bottling seemed encouraging, and I think it's going to be pretty good...but you may want to come up with a hop schedule of your own.

 

[Rye-guy]

Marris otter is my go to base malt. My house pale ale uses nothing but marris otter and domestic 2-row 50-50. UKEKG and cascade. I call it the "American Revolutionary Pale Ale" perfect mix of British and American pale ales. I use S-04, and slightly alkaline water from a natural NH spring.I cant hold onto a batch of this much longer than a week, its that good. Anyway I'd recommend Marris otter to anyone and everyone. I feel like there's nearly no style of beer you can't use it in.

 

[brewbama]

My house Pale Ale consists of 10 lbs of Maris Otter and .5 lbs Simpson's Crystal Maris Otter single infusion at 152*F. Then boiled with 2 oz Kent Goldings at 60 min and 1 oz Kent Goldings at 1 min. Nottingham yeast.

 

[schematix]

After a few pints I can say I'm not a fan of this beer. It is very thin and insanely bitter. It's also has a funky yeast undertone that i attribute to the nottingham. Definitely some potential, but the yeast flavor is very offputting to me.

I'm going to use the MO in an american IPA though. I think it can shine there.

 

[jjeffers09]

I prefer burton wlp023 over Nottingham fwiw

 

[schematix]

One reason I used notty is that I would like to find a dry yeast that makes good beer just for the ease, but I'm still on the hunt. I've been a liquid guy since the beginning.

 

[mongoose33]

One reason I used notty is that I would like to find a dry yeast that makes good beer just for the ease, but I'm still on the hunt. I've been a liquid guy since the beginning.

Ever try Safale S-04?

 

[55x11]

MO:EKG

MO:Cascade

No reason to avoid the smash. Embrace it

SMASH are good experiments to try out the new hops or grain. But it's not the way to produce best beers, and nobody should embrace it.

 

[NatureOfTheYeast]

Maris is a great malt with tons of complexity! I love using it, but it does have its drawbacks.

While you can sub straight across for American Standard 2-Row, you will end up with a different beer. I mean, duh, right? Anyway, something to be aware of is that Maris is a pale ale malt, whereas 2-Row is a pale malt. The difference being the amount of kilning and as a result, higher lovibond and more robust flavor.

Another important difference is the diastatic power. 2-Row has almost double the diastatic power of Maris Otter, which means that the same beers with each malt could have different finishing and possibly even starting gravities. This can be a bit of a problem if you're used to a recipe finishing at 1.010 with 2-Row, but you end up at 1.015 with Maris. Sometimes you can just mash lower and/or longer, but with recipes that have a lot of crystal, dark malts, flaked grains, etc., Maris just doesn't supply enough enzymes to convert everything fully no matter how low or long you mash for. An Oatmeal Stout I made recently finished at 1.023 when the software called for 1.016. It used Maris and Golden Promise, and didn't stand a chance with 40% of the grist being flaked, dark, and crystal malts. Turned out great, though.

These are just tiny problems though, and it's not like they'll ruin a beer. Just something to keep in mind when developing a recipe. Maris is definitely a malt worth using and getting familiar with.

 

[schematix]

So as much as I am not a huge fan of this beer, it was a ridiculously huge hit with a broad crowd tonight. They did a great job polishing off a bunch of this stuff for me.

I offered up a flight of samples (in order):
1. German pilsner
2. This beer - I called it an English Bitter
3. Octoberfest
4. Bock
5. Citra IPA (drastically under bittered)
6. Yooper's Oatmeal Stout

And everyone wanted #2 except my wife (who doesn't like beer) and a girl from Oregon who both wanted the IPA instead. When I asked some of the people why they liked, it seemed like the dryness was a preference.

 

[55x11]

So as much as I am not a huge fan of this beer, it was a ridiculously huge hit with a broad crowd tonight. They did a great job polishing off a bunch of this stuff for me.

I offered up a flight of samples (in order):
1. German pilsner
2. This beer - I called it an English Bitter
3. Octoberfest
4. Bock
5. Citra IPA (drastically under bittered)
6. Yooper's Oatmeal Stout

And everyone wanted #2 except my wife (who doesn't like beer) and a girl from Oregon who both wanted the IPA instead. When I asked some of the people why they liked, it seemed like the dryness was a preference.

I would say Citra IPA should NOT use Maris Otter. Neither should #1, German Pilsner. IPAs should be super-dry, and Maris Otter will not finish dry.

Similar argument for German Pilsner - it should be using clean Pilsner malt and not complex Maris Otter, which adds biscuit like cookie like flavor - which is good for stouts and malty ales, but not for pilsners or pale ales or IPAs.

 

[schematix]

I would say Citra IPA should NOT use Maris Otter. Neither should #1, German Pilsner. IPAs should be super-dry, and Maris Otter will not finish dry.

Similar argument for German Pilsner - it should be using clean Pilsner malt and not complex Maris Otter, which adds biscuit like cookie like flavor - which is good for stouts and malty ales, but not for pilsners or pale ales or IPAs.

Just to be clear, the other beers were made with their appropriate base grain per style. #6 was the only other one that used MO. I was trying to point out that even though I wasn't a fan of the beer I made, a lot of other people were.

 

[mongoose33]

MO:EKG

MO:Cascade

No reason to avoid the smash. Embrace it

SMASH are good experiments to try out the new hops or grain. But it's not the way to produce best beers, and nobody should embrace it.

Just kegged a MO:EKG smash. I don't know if it's the best or not, but people like it, it seems. I've been drinking it with no problems, but it almost seems like something is missing. No off-flavors, just that I am wishing for just a little something more. I don't know if I'd add a tiny bit of Crystal if that would help, or perhaps a second hop would add some complexity. Or something.

It's good. Don't now if it could be better, but I can also imagine people liking this very, very much.

 

[laredo7mm]

...Another important difference is the diastatic power. 2-Row has almost double the diastatic power of Maris Otter, which means that the same beers with each malt could have different finishing and possibly even starting gravities. This can be a bit of a problem if you're used to a recipe finishing at 1.010 with 2-Row, but you end up at 1.015 with Maris. Sometimes you can just mash lower and/or longer, but with recipes that have a lot of crystal, dark malts, flaked grains, etc., Maris just doesn't supply enough enzymes to convert everything fully no matter how low or long you mash for...

This confuses me. Everything I have read is that MO has a DP of 120. That is pretty high. How can your higher than expected FG be caused by low DP? The enzymes convert starches to sugars, if there are not enough enzymes then your OG would be low, not a high FG. Are you saying that a lack of enzymes causes less fermentable sugars to be produced?

 

[Gameface]

This confuses me. Everything I have read is that MO has a DP of 120. That is pretty high. How can your higher than expected FG be caused by low DP? The enzymes convert starches to sugars, if there are not enough enzymes then your OG would be low, not a high FG. Are you saying that a lack of enzymes causes less fermentable sugars to be produced?

Confuses me too. I use MO almost exclusively. I'm making a rye IPA and decided to use US 2-row this time. According to beersmith the projected FG if I toggle between MO and 2-row is 1.013 for the MO and 1.012 for the 2-row. So it isn't like MO makes heavy sweet beers while 2-row makes bone dry beers. The difference is there, but it's not huge, or even big really.

 

[laredo7mm]

Confuses me too. I use MO almost exclusively. I'm making a rye IPA and decided to use US 2-row this time. According to beersmith the projected FG if I toggle between MO and 2-row is 1.013 for the MO and 1.012 for the 2-row. So it isn't like MO makes heavy sweet beers while 2-row makes bone dry beers. The difference is there, but it's not huge, or even big really.

Right. I don't think the higher FG is from lack of enzymes, but instead from MO having more unfermentable sugars since it is a bit more toasted/roasted than regular old 2 row.

 

[chickypad]

This confuses me. Everything I have read is that MO has a DP of 120. That is pretty high. How can your higher than expected FG be caused by low DP? The enzymes convert starches to sugars, if there are not enough enzymes then your OG would be low, not a high FG. Are you saying that a lack of enzymes causes less fermentable sugars to be produced?

I suspect that is in WK units, which would be a DP of about 40 L.
Crisp is listed at 50 L.
I happen to like single malt APA's with MO, as I think it is a great base for highlighting American hops without being sweet. I haven't had issues with attenuation. Last one I did was one of my house beers (Simarillo Otter - single malt/2 hop), it was 1.057 to 1.010 mashed at 151 and fermented with 1056. This was with Crisp MO.

 

[Qhrumphf]

While there's some process variation and some variation between cultivars for sure, the more kilning and higher color, the more enzymes are destroyed, at least amongst the same species of grain. It would be very unusual to have a highly (relative) kilned base malt like Maris Otter be more enzymatic than lesser-kilned 2-row or pilsner. Wheat and 6 row are a different story since they're fundamentally different plants, but the heirarchy I usually see in terms of DP is 6 row>wheat/pilsner (depends on maltster)>2 row>pale ale malt/Maris Otter>Mild Malt>Vienna>Munich>Amber/Aromatic/Brown/Biscuit/Victory/etc (the last grouping all maybe possibly but not always having a shred of diastatic power but nowhere near enough to convert anything).

50-60 Lintner is what I'm used to seeing with Maris Otter. As in, enough to self convert and to convert a small bit of adjunct grain, but in a heavy adjunct grain bill it's definitely going to need help. Only when I get to Vienna and Munich would I be worried about them not properly converting any other grains without help (although able to self-convert), and with that last group I just assume them to be non-diastatic and needs a proper base malt.

 

[NatureOfTheYeast]

Oops, sorry to cause some confusion. Let me clarify a thing or 2 about my post.

The diastatic power measurement I'm using comes from the batch code on the bags at the LHBS. Below I've listed the 2-Row and MO malts that I use and the only 2 sets of numbers I have immediate access to right this moment. These measurements will certainly differ from maltster to maltster.

Crisp Maris Otter
Rahr Standard 2-Row

Qhrumphf covered DP of grains above very well, and summed up with an excellent hierarchy that's really good to keep on hand or in mind when developing recipes. Sure, MO and Munich, Vienna, etc will self convert without issue. The problem is when you start putting other grains into the mix, especially when you're used to developing a recipe that uses 2-Row as the base. Low adjunct/crystal/roast malt beers won't suffer as greatly when subbing MO directly for Standard 2-Row, and some won't suffer at all.

Another thing is that the amount of enzymes is not in relative proportion to the type of enzymes. Some malts have higher Alpha Amylase, some have more Beta Amylase, and this will affect the OG and FG respectively. In response to laredo7mm's question, yes MO will have a slightly higher amount of unfermentables due to the nature of its kilning. Another thing to consider is that Beta Amylase, which creates the shorter chain and highly fermentable sugars, is denatured at a lower temperature. That means that either the higher kilning temperature or longer length of kilning of MO depletes the Beta Amylase at a higher rate than the lower temp/time kilning of 2-Row. It also follows that the longer kilning time/higher temp will denature more enzymes overall. There are also crop year and varietal-specific amounts of each enzyme that are unique to each strain, farm, maltster, etc.

Hope that cleared things up!

 

[Qhrumphf]

With most barley specialty malts, there's little to no starch left to convert. Any of your crystal malts or roasted malts have already either had their starches converted into something else or essentially destroyed. With these, I don't worry too much about the influence of base malt, as the only thing the enzymatic action might do is increase yield slightly (I don't recall the chemistry off the top of my head and don't care to look it up at this hour, but I'm assuming enzymes breaking down some of the grain matrix making sugars more accessible). It's the starchy specialty malts (basically those in that last grouping) that will need a little enzymatic help, but those seldom make up a significant portion of the grain bill as their primary purpose is character, not fermentable extract. The issue is using starchy adjunct grains like corn, which IS added for fermentable extract (and the use of flaked maize is certainly not out of place in English brewing where MO would be used). Many of my English ales will use Maris Otter as a base, a bit of specialty grains, and something like flaked oats, flaked barley, or flaked wheat, and I never have issue achieving full conversion (98-99% conversion efficiency without exception). I've never tried using 60% Maris Otter and 40% flaked maize though. And that is where you're going to run into an issue. The beers where I HAVE used that much corn I'm usually 40% Pils malt, 20% 6 row, and 40% flaked maize, and that provides the enzymatic oomph necessary.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Another thing is that the amount of enzymes is not in relative proportion to the type of enzymes. Some malts have higher Alpha Amylase, some have more Beta Amylase, and this will affect the OG and FG respectively. In response to laredo7mm's question, yes MO will have a slightly higher amount of unfermentables due to the nature of its kilning. Another thing to consider is that Beta Amylase, which creates the shorter chain and highly fermentable sugars, is denatured at a lower temperature. That means that either the higher kilning temperature or longer length of kilning of MO depletes the Beta Amylase at a higher rate than the lower temp/time kilning of 2-Row. It also follows that the longer kilning time/higher temp will denature more enzymes overall. There are also crop year and varietal-specific amounts of each enzyme that are unique to each strain, farm, maltster, etc.

Hope that cleared things up!

While this is a valid point, it doesn't inherently impact OG and FG. It simply means that modification to the mash process may be needed. At the same mash temperature, Maris Otter may produce a slightly less fermentable wort than a standard American 2 row, as well as slightly lower yield. The yield though I'd say has more to do with modification of the grain than the enzymes (although they're related). But as you said, Maris Otter may have a slightly lower relative portion of B amylase as opposed to the 2 row, and as such may have it denature more quickly. But adjusting the mash temp to accommodate might yield the same result.

Unfortunately I'm not aware of any maltsers that specifically list the breakdown.

I'd say at the end of the day it comes down to knowing your grains in the real world and how they'll behave.

For anyone who attended NHC this year, a gent from Briess gave a great talk on sensory evaluation of wort. But the real gem in there was a (slightly less effective and consistent than a lab) home process for conducting a congress mash. I plan on playing with the technique extensively in the future. If you want to know everything about how a grain is going to behave, that's how you're going to learn it.

 

[NatureOfTheYeast]

While this is a valid point, it doesn't inherently impact OG and FG. It simply means that modification to the mash process may be needed. At the same mash temperature, Maris Otter may produce a slightly less fermentable wort than a standard American 2 row, as well as slightly lower yield. The yield though I'd say has more to do with modification of the grain than the enzymes (although they're related). But as you said, Maris Otter may have a slightly lower relative portion of B amylase as opposed to the 2 row, and as such may have it denature more quickly. But adjusting the mash temp to accommodate might yield the same result.

Oh, great point! I forgot to mention that mash temperature can also play a role at maximizing your B amylase activity, and I also forgot about modification. Let's also not open the huge can of worms that is mash pH, too!

Just goes to show that malt is perhaps the most complex brewing ingredient, and so much consideration goes into determining its use. No one has all the answers, and it's on the brewer's shoulders to research as much as possible in order to understand the nuances and subtleties.