Man, I love Apfelwein

[EdWort]

made the whole 5 gallons lol.... soooo yeah. It does say however it deactivates within hours of bottling the juice to leave it preservative free (big preservative free sign on the front) which is why I bought it, but when I inspected closer to see what types of ingredients it used, I noticed it... really pissed me off!

If it didn't say 100% Apple Juice, then you may have problems. That's the key along with no additives or preservatives.

 

[Schlenkerla]

I sent this email to Lesafrey Yeast (maker of Red Star Montrachet)

Gunnard,

Thanks for the very quick reply! I have a couple other questions but
forgot to ask in my initial contact.

1.) Does this yeast benefit from the use of a nutrient?

I copied a popular recipe off of www.Homebrewtalk.com. - The recipe has 2
lbs of corn sugar and 5 gallons of preservative (free) cider and one pack of
Montrachet. There has been a lot of talk of whether it was needed. Many
people have complained about the sulfur generation. I added 2 oz. of
nutrient to the must because of what I read about cider making. Just
curious on your opinion.

2.) I would like to naturally carbonate this when I bottle. How much corn
sugar will I need to add?

My batch will be very close to 5 gallons. I would prefer it to be
effervescent. Most of the people who are making this are kegging it then
add 10-14 PSI of CO2. There hasn't been much discussion on how to
naturally carbonate this. Please make a recommendation.​

Their reply:

In answer to your questions:

1. Yeast nutrients never hurt, and in some situations, they are highly
recommended. Many fermentation substrates can be deficient, not only in
nitrogen, but in vitamins and trace minerals. Examples include honey based
fermentations and fermentations involving highly clarified juices as in
some Chardonnay musts. Nutritional supplementation can be especially
important where high final alcohols are involved. For lower alcohol (4-12
% v/v) beverages, derived from rich substrates such as malt and
non-clarified musts from well ripened grapes, added nutrition is less of an
issue for commercially produced yeast starters. The yeast production
process provides the yeast ample nutrients to sustain and complete such
fermentations.

2. As for your use of Montrachet in cider production: this strain does have
the reputation of hydrogen sulfide (H2S) production. This strain is
recommended for robust red and white wines; and, has been reported to
produce good non-grape fruit wine, such a plum. The cause of H2S
production in wine fermentations is still under active investigation. It
is known that it can be associated with nitrogen deficiency in some cases,
but not always. The addition of yeast nutrients such as diammonium
phosphate (a nitrogen source) have routinely been added during the first
quarter of the fermentation to help alleviate H2S production. Researchers
have been investigating parameters such as juice amino acid profiles, use
of sulphur powder as a pre-harvest mold inhibitor, juice sulphate and
sulphite levels, juice mineral content, etc. It is also well known that
there are yeast strain dependent differences in H2S production.

I am not familiar with the term "preservative (free) cider". (my typo) Hopefully, it does
not contain sorbates or benzoates that would inhibit your fermentation. In
America, cider is usually made from table apples. Sugar content should be
in the 10-12% range. Your 2 lbs/5 gal corn sugar is roughly another 5%. I
predict your final alcohol will be in the 7.5-8.5% range. Montrachet will
have no trouble with this.

To bottle condition (carbonate) this cider, add 3/4 cup of corn sugar/5
gal. Make sure the fermentation is over prior to adding priming sugar.
Most people would rely on the residual yeast in the juice to carbonate the
cider in the bottle after capping. Others will inoculate with a fresh
packet of yeast just to make sure. It will take 1-2 weeks (depending on
cellar temperature) to carbonate the cider.​

So it looks like 3/4" Cup for carbonating....

He guessed well on the ABV.

You can take it or leave it on the nutrients, might keep the rhino farts at a minimum.

 

[Kadmium]

If it didn't say 100% Apple Juice, then you may have problems. That's the key along with no additives or preservatives.

Did not specifically say 100% apple juice, just had under ingredients

Reconstituted apple juice, Food acid, Vitamin C, Dimethyl Dicarbonate

and then had

No colours
No preservatives
No added sugar

PS: Awesome post on the montrachet yeast mate! loving it! VERY well done!

 

[EdWort]

Did not specifically say 100% apple juice, just had under ingredients

Reconstituted apple juice, Food acid, Vitamin C, Dimethyl Dicarbonate

and then had

No colours
No preservatives
No added sugar

PS: Awesome post on the montrachet yeast mate! loving it! VERY well done!

I would not use that juice again. I use Tree Top Apple Juice from Costco. They sell it for $5.99 for 2 gallons.

The label says 100% Apple Juice from Concentrate.

Here's the Ingredients verbatim: Apple Juice from concentrate (water, concentrated apple juice).

That's it. No funky chemical names.

 

[user 4295]

Did not specifically say 100% apple juice, just had under ingredients

Reconstituted apple juice, Food acid, Vitamin C, Dimethyl Dicarbonate

and then had

No colours
No preservatives
No added sugar

PS: Awesome post on the montrachet yeast mate! loving it! VERY well done!

I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but even though the apple juice that you got said that it does not contain any preservatives, that is not entirely accurate.

Dimethyl Dicarbonate, while not considered a preservative by the FDA in the amounts that they have aloud to be used, is in fact a yeast sterilizer! You may be out of luck on this one.

John

 

[Kadmium]

I'm sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but even though the apple juice that you got said that it does not contain any preservatives, that is not entirely accurate.

Dimethyl Dicarbonate, while not considered a preservative by the FDA in the amounts that they have aloud to be used, is in fact a yeast sterilizer! You may be out of luck on this one.

John

Yeah, I know, however I have AIRLOCK ACTIVITY!!! WOOOO... yeah, its bubbling about once every 25 seconds, and its at the 19hour mark... so yeah, I think we are going to be O.K.!

The reason I didnt buy treetop from costco is... im Australian! but yeha, when I saw the juice in nice big 4litre bottles, with big ticks on it saying "No preservative, No added sugar, no colours" I was like "SHIMMY!!!!" (aussie for f***kin awesome)

but then once I poured it all in and everything decided to read the back lable (an OCD about knowing where it comes from etc) and yeah, got real angry! but like I said, I got bubbling, a nice ring of yeast and the "brew" is a lil cloudy (cant see the otherside of the carboy) so yeah, we should be OK gents! will give you an update report in about 24 hours on how its going and will definatley let you know how it tastes hehe...

 

[EdWort]

SHIMMY! Mate!

Whoo hoo. New word for the day!

Thanks!

 

[Kadmium]

SHIMMY! Mate!

Whoo hoo. New word for the day!

Thanks!

hahahah thanks!! and yeah, got a nice fat layer of bubbles on the top of the carboy and steady bubbles at around 1 every 10 seconds, so they are ALIVE!!!! heehhehe. will let you know how it turns out in a day or two

 

[Orpheus]

I would not use that juice again. I use Tree Top Apple Juice from Costco. They sell it for $5.99 for 2 gallons.

The label says 100% Apple Juice from Concentrate.

Here's the Ingredients verbatim: Apple Juice from concentrate (water, concentrated apple juice).

That's it. No funky chemical names.

Gotta love the search feature. I was just about to say, I can't find Tree Top anywhere. I looked at my local Sam's and they don't have it. I searched on the internet and all the local Sam's have no availability on the product. They did have other brands that were 100% juice (just water and concentrated apple juice) but I was afraid to get it for fear it was not the right stuff. I'll be sure to pick it up next time I'm there. It was even cheaper, like $5.88 for 2 gallons.

A quick question. One of the brands had added ascorbic acid. I won't get this one, but is ascorbic acid a problem?

 

[user 4295]

A quick question. One of the brands had added ascorbic acid. I won't get this one, but is ascorbic acid a problem?

No, shouldn't be a problem. Ascorbic acid is just the chemical name for vitamin C in its principal form.

John

 

[Schlenkerla]

About using juice with Asorbic Acid - Somebody else had asked this question a couple hundred posts ago. From my recollection I think they made a half batch with Nottinghams and that it turn out fine.

I think there was a comment later to follow Ed's recipe to the letter so I don't think it was an issue.

I had to shop around to find a suitable cider. It was common to find this in the juices. I used Midwest County Fare; 100% Juice & Pastuerized. It has water and apple juice concentrate. $2.99 a gallon. I found it at the local grocery store in the juice isle. I had three brands to choose from that had exactly the same ingredients.

 

[Kadmium]

hey, I got a question didnt get answered before, hoping to get some help.I plan on bottle carbing my apfelwein. What I am wondering is, if I let it clear up nicely in the primary, and let all that trub settle at the bottom, if I then bottle it when its crystal clear, will the yeast not be all down the bottom, hence no yeast getting in the bottles for carbing it? or is there still microscopic yeast floating around in the clear clear apfelwein goodness, just waiting to get bottled? thanks

 

[olllllo]

hey, I got a question didnt get answered before, hoping to get some help.I plan on bottle carbing my apfelwein. What I am wondering is, if I let it clear up nicely in the primary, and let all that trub settle at the bottom, if I then bottle it when its crystal clear, will the yeast not be all down the bottom, hence no yeast getting in the bottles for carbing it? or is there still microscopic yeast floating around in the clear clear apfelwein goodness, just waiting to get bottled? thanks

All yeast are microscopic. There will be plenty in suspension.

 

[Schlenkerla]

See Post 572 for carbonating.

 

[Fuggles]

Bottling day has finally arrived - I am going to prime mine using DME and honey. Although it has been 5 weeks in - it still never completely cleared (I think that is due to the "All Natural" apple juice I used which had a cloudy look to begin with.

 

[Fuggles]

Tasted a coffee cup full of it - WHEW! Strong! I am going to like this stuff when it carbonates!

 

[EdWort]

Bottling day has finally arrived - I am going to prime mine using DME and honey. Although it has been 5 weeks in - it still never completely cleared (I think that is due to the "All Natural" apple juice I used which had a cloudy look to begin with.

yeah, if it's cloudy when you buy it, it'll be cloudy when you bottle it.

 

[Fuggles]

yeah, if it's cloudy when you buy it, it'll be cloudy when you bottle it.

A little cloudy, but it really fermented out apply dry. I used liquid ale yeast and threw in some brown sugar instead of corn sugar. Now that one of the carboys is available, I am trying your original recipe using the wine yeast next week. I looked at the calendar today and, whatdaknow - one month in the bottle = Valentine's Day. Hope it goes well with Godiva chocolate. I'll have to pop a bottle to share on the way to dinner that night.

 

[EdWort]

I am trying your original recipe using the wine yeast next week. I looked at the calendar today and, whatdaknow - one month in the bottle = Valentine's Day. Hope it goes well with Godiva chocolate.

Sweet! I just picked up 10 gallons of Tree Top Juice today at Costco. Gonna spend 10 minutes and whip up two batches. That'll get me back to the 3 Better Bottle pictured at the top of this thread 500+ posts ago. :cross:

Good Stuff. SWMBO is addicted.

 

[newguy]

Well thanks again Ed! I've been fermenting for about 2 weeks. I took a little taste last night to see how things were going....and WOW! really nice taste. definitely dry. nice and sweet with a nice apple resonation. This really tasted good for how simple and easy this recipe is.

I can't wait to taste it when it finishes!

Also had a question Ed, How long have you been able to store/age this stuff? Would like to bottle (non-primed) for a few months and see the difference in the taste.

Thanks again..applewein fan for sure!

cheers,

 

[EdWort]

Also had a question Ed, How long have you been able to store/age this stuff? Would like to bottle (non-primed) for a few months and see the difference in the taste.

I've bottled non-primed and given 1 liters as gifts months later. No problem. I get my bottles back with "More Please" request.

I've also let it go 2 months in the primary before getting around to keg it without any problems and that is at room temp which is from 68 to 73 depending on what time of day it is.

You should not have a problem bottling it and coming back 9 months later to try it as long as your sanitation practices are good.

 

[newguy]

Ta Ed! thanks much.

 

[lord byron]

hey i got a question i used brown sugar in mine, is brown sugar 100% fermentable like cane or corn sugar? I was wandering if if would leave some residual sweetness in the finished product. I used about 3lbs in 6~6.25 gallon batch.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Brown sugar is cane sugar and molasses. The question is how fermentable molasses happens to be. I would think, just guessing, that it would have some unfermentables and tend to sweeten. The darker brown sugar has more molasses the light.

According to Chuck's good book, brown sugar is less than 10% molasses. He stipulates there are unfermentables present in molasses but is not specific, but goes on to say the worse case is blackstrap molasses at 65% sucrose, 35% non fermentable. So in brown sugar its less than 3.5%. He states the flavoring effect is "buttery" using pure molasses. He notes the british ale Old Peculiar uses molasses.

I think brown sugar is a good substitute and the molasses effect would be quite mimimal. One note is he says it should be boiled either in a wort or water before added to the fermentor. Several others have gone this route their has been little to no complaints so far about not boiling and infections. The quick yeast activity and high ABV probably has alot to do with it though.

 

[Orfy]

I've just bought 5 litres of from concentrate 100% grape juice. I plan to make a turbo wine, I'n the same manner as Apfelwein.
I'm also thinking of using a little yeast nutrient. I'm thinking of adding 500g of sugar
How about adding juice of a lemon, orange and apple? (would I need to boil to sterilise?
I also read an hand full of raisins help.

Any suggestions?

 

[Schlenkerla]

Here's a link to some useful info about nutrients....http://www.grapestompers.com/articles/yeast_nutrients.htm

It moreless states use it so you don't get stuck ferments or the aweful sulfur smell and then some....

 

[ill.literate]

Question to perhaps Ed or someone else.

I didn't get around to bottling this weekend, so my Apfelwein is still in my Better Bottle. Any of you guys harvest the yeast out of the carboy for future batches?

I used a Wyeast Champagne yeast and have never really harvested yeast, but was thinking I might give it a shot with the Apfelwein yeast.

Thoughts? Is it worth the effort or a largely pointless exercise?

 

[kilroy]

Also had a question Ed, How long have you been able to store/age this stuff? Would like to bottle (non-primed) for a few months and see the difference in the taste.

Thanks again..applewein fan for sure!

cheers,

From a Wino's Perspective - you could preserve the brew a bit longer by using Potassiam Sorbate (.5 teaspoon/gallon) & Pottassium Metabisulphate 1/4 teaspoon for 5 gallons - mixed to a little bit of the finished wine, and then stirred into the brew.

The sorbate does effectively nueter the yeast, so you will have to force carbonate after that, but the sulphite will preserve the wine for 6 months to a year.

Note - DO NOT USE SORBATE WITHOUT THE SULPHITE - you will be left with a brew that smells of geraniums - that you cannot get rid of.
you can use Sulphite without sorbate though.

Hope that helps.

Kilroy

 

[EdWort]

Question to perhaps Ed or someone else.
Any of you guys harvest the yeast out of the carboy for future batches?

As I use Montrachet wine yeast (at $0.85 per packet), harvesting is not worth the hassel for 85 cents IMHO.

 

[Kadmium]

while we are on the subject of wine hybrid ciders, I was wondering what your opinions would be on brewing a high ABV beer, using lavlin 1118 champagne yeast instead of an ale or such yeast traditionally used? would it produce a higher ABV (with a dextrose kicker) and a VERY dry style beer? especially with a carb eating enzyme? I think I will try this out? what do you all think?