Maltiest Mild?

[ChemE]

So my wife loves malty beers especially porters. I decided as my first AG brew I would attempt to make the maltiest beer possible just to see how much malt flavor it is actually possible to obtain (within reason). Below is the BeerSmith printout of the recipe. I'm hoping to get any suggestions or tweaks before I brew it next weekend. If it turns out well I'm going to fool around with first wort hopping the next one like orfy's hobgoblin. Any thoughts on that? Thanks in advance.


BeerSmith Recipe Printout - BeerSmith Brewing Software, Recipes, Blog, Wiki and Discussion Forum
Recipe: Malt Monster
Brewer:
Asst Brewer:
Style: Mild
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 2.25 gal
Boil Size: 2.71 gal
Estimated OG: 1.031 SG
Estimated Color: 15.2 SRM
Estimated IBU: 10.0 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
1.00 lb Munich Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM) Grain 38.17 %
1.00 lb Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 38.17 %
0.31 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (120.0 SRM) Grain 11.83 %
0.31 lb Melanoiden Malt (20.0 SRM) Grain 11.83 %
0.22 oz Fuggles [4.50 %] (90 min) Hops 10.0 IBU
1 Pkgs SafAle English Ale (DCL Yeast #S-04) Yeast-Ale


Mash Schedule: Decotion Mash, Double, High Efficiency
Total Grain Weight: 2.62 lb
----------------------------
Decotion Mash, Double, High Efficiency
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
30 min Doughing In Add 3.93 qt of water at 110.0 F 104.0 F
90 min Sacchrification ResDecoct 2.32 qt of mash and boil it 153.0 F
10 min Mash Out Decoct 1.82 qt of mash and boil it 174.0 F

 

[ChemE]

I should have mentioned that I did quite a bit of reading on malt flavor before developing this recipe. This is why I'm doing a double decoction mash as this is widely regarded as the best way to produce malt flavors. I know I could rest hotter (158) and shorter (40 minutes) to get slightly more malt but I don't want a 50% efficiency either.

The malts I selected are also known for their malty characteristics except the MO because I needed some diastatic power in there. By the way, how low on the MO could I have gone and still gotten full conversion?

Finally the gravity to IBU ratio is very low which should put it firmly in the very malty region. Is there anything else I can do to enhance the maltiness?

 

[WBC]

It will be a very light mild with very little hops.

Look here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f67/mild-mannered-ale-ag-e-uk-us-52776/

This is a good recipe if you want more of the darker flavors, maybe not?

I would make a whole 5 gallons though if you go though step mashing. Step mashing is a lot of work.

 

[ChemE]

I'm really just trying to emphasize malty flavors as much as possible with this batch.

 

[DeathBrewer]

i think 11% of the melanoiden malt will make it very malty. MO may not be as malty as munich, but it's definitely a maltier grain than american 2-row, pilsner, 6-row, etc.

looks like a decent recipe. have fun with the decoction mash. they take a bit longer, but i'm sure you'll learn something in the process. i did it with my first all-grain

i'm not sure about the crystal 120...you might get some roasted flavor from that. i'd go with something 40-60, and see if you can get some british crystal. my LHBS sells a 50/60 that is fantastic. a small amount of chocolate malt for color and a hint of flavor is nice, too...like orfy's recipe.

i love malty beers...let us know how it goes!

 

[ChemE]

...i'm not sure about the crystal 120...you might get some roasted flavor from that. i'd go with something 40-60, and see if you can get some british crystal. my LHBS sells a 50/60 that is fantastic...

Yeah I know, the original recipe I wrote called for caraaroma instead but AHS doesn't seem to carry that malt. I don't have a grain crusher yet so I wanted to order all the ingredients from the same place crushed already. I needed the 120 to get the color within style. I hope I don't get too much raisin and burnt sugar taste out of it.

 

[Bob]

Okay - I'm going to devil's advocate this.

In some ways, your thinking is going too far; in others, not far enough. Think it through with me.

Your goal: a malty beer.

First, you're using an ingredient and a technique at the same time to increase melanoidin production. This can easily overpower. You're better off choosing one and discarding the other. This is where you've over-thought! Melanoidin malt exists for brewers who, like me, want the products of a decoction mash but can't be arsed to actually perform a decoction.

Second, that's entirely too much 120L Crystal. You will end up with "too much raisin and burnt sugar taste". This is where you haven't thought far enough. You should read up on ingredients first.

If you really want to make a Mild, read up on the ingredients that make classic Mild Ales. Designing Great Beers and Mild Ale are required reading if you want to peg the style. But it sounds to me that the style you're thinking about is really secondary to your desired effort.

You want a malty ale. You can do that without any style confusion at all.

I advise you to brew small batches - which you're planning; good - and reduce variables to the lowest common denominator, so the variables are simple to understand. Thus, do your decoction, and use only pale malt; pilsner and 2-row pale malts both contain plenty of diastatic power, sufficient to convert itself and lots of adjunct. That means any melanoidin production is solely due to the decoction, so you know what effect decoction has on perceived maltiness.

You dig?

Cheers,

Bob

 

[david_42]

Caraaroma is a brand-name for aromatic. As the name suggests, it adds malt aroma.

My policy is pound-for-pound base/specialty. The Munich converts itself, so you have 0.62 pounds you need to balance.

 

[ChemE]

I thought Caraaroma was 120-130 SRM where aromatic was much lighter like 20 SRM.

 

[ChemE]

I really appreciate all the feedback so far. I've incorporated a lot of your suggestions into a revised recipe; any comments?

Recipe: Malt Monster II
Brewer:
Asst Brewer:
Style: Mild
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 2.25 gal
Boil Size: 3.02 gal
Estimated OG: 1.031 SG
Estimated Color: 21.6 SRM
Estimated IBU: 10.3 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
1 lbs 4.0 oz Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 48.78 %
8.0 oz Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 19.51 %
6.0 oz Melanoiden Malt (20.0 SRM) Grain 14.63 %
4.0 oz Aromatic Malt (26.0 SRM) Grain 9.76 %
3.0 oz Chocolate Malt (450.0 SRM) Grain 7.32 %
0.20 oz Fuggles [4.50 %] (90 min) (First Wort HopHops 10.3 IBU
1 Pkgs SafAle English Ale (DCL Yeast #S-04) Yeast-Ale


Mash Schedule: Decotion Mash, Double
Total Grain Weight: 2.56 lb
----------------------------
Decotion Mash, Double, High Efficiency
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
30 min Doughing In Add 3.20 qt of water at 110.8 F 104.0 F
40 min Sacchrification ResDecoct 2.16 qt of mash and boil it 158.0 F
10 min Mash Out Decoct 1.44 qt of mash and boil it 176.0 F

----------------------------------------------------------

 

[DeathBrewer]

ok, now you've gone to far with the melanoiden malts. using aromatic and melanoiden in 25% of your brew is going to give a horrible malt flavor, trust me. cut those down to what you had originally, bout 10% or so.

i think you misunderstood with the munich, too. munich only has enough diastatic power to convert itself, so you should throw some MO in there to help with conversion of the other grains.

i think you're still fine to go with the decoction if you cut the melanoid malts down. the decoction will add to the malty flavor, but it won't be overpowering. it is kind of unnecessary but have fun and do it!

you'll be happy with adding some chocolate malt...that's some tasty stuff in a mild.

Cheers!

 

[Orfy]

I'd be surprised to see a good mild without chocolate malt.

 

[DeathBrewer]

my little red hen is quite tasty

 

[Orfy]

Was it a proper mild?

 

[DeathBrewer]

lol, a little light on the color, but ALMOST fits to style

recipe here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/816402-post7.html

 

[Orfy]

It's one of them soft southern ones.
Sound nice.

I always feel short changed if my mild isn't dark.

 

[DeathBrewer]

it was mainly just to stick with the little red hen theme (it's a nice orange/red color) but i am very happy with it and going to continue making it as my house ale. i'm changing up the recipe this time around by using s-04 and mashing a little lower. i want the fruitiness and residual sweetness in there and the notty was giving it a "malty dryness" that could be improved.

i do enjoy some chocolate malt in my milds, tho. and really in a large amount of beers in general. i was throwing ~4 oz in almost every recipe about a year back and it never disappointed.

alrighty, enough thread-jacking

 

[ChemE]

So then perhaps something more like this...

Recipe: Malt Monster III
Style: Mild
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 2.50 gal
Boil Size: 3.36 gal
Estimated OG: 1.034 SG
Estimated Color: 22.3 SRM
Estimated IBU: 10.0 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 75.00 %
Boil Time: 90 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
1 lbs 8.0 oz Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 48.98 %
8.0 oz Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 16.33 %
8.0 oz Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 16.33 %
5.0 oz Melanoiden Malt (20.0 SRM) Grain 10.20 %
4.0 oz Chocolate Malt (450.0 SRM) Grain 8.16 %
0.22 oz Fuggles [4.50 %] (90 min) (First Wort Hop) Hops 10.0 IBU
1 Pkgs SafAle English Ale (DCL Yeast #S-04) Yeast-Ale


Mash Schedule: Decotion Mash, Double
Total Grain Weight: 3.06 lb
----------------------------
Decotion Mash, Double, High Efficiency
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
30 min Doughing In Add 3.83 qt of water at 110.8 F 104.0 F
40 min Sacchrification ResDecoct 2.58 qt of mash and boil it 158.0 F
10 min Mash Out Decoct 1.72 qt of mash and boil it 176.0 F
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[DeathBrewer]

that looks good. it'll be malty as hell, but not completely overpowering. i'd try it

 

[ChemE]

Great! Malty as hell but not disgusting is the primary objective here. Secondary is to actually fit a style. Thanks for all the advice!

 

[Bob]

I have to disagree with DeathBrewer. It's going to be overpoweringly malty.

I'll say it again: If you're going to conduct a decoction mash, especially a double decoction, there is no point to using melanoidin malt. You will be providing plenty of melanoidin via the process of decocting twice. Essentially, what you're proposing is decocting a grain bill that teeters on the brink of too malty for a doppelbock. That, my friend, is the definition of 'overpowering'.

By your admission in your original post, you are learning. You are ill served by overcomplicating this experiment. Keep the parameters simple until you have more experience, more of a handle on process and ingredients.

Here's why: What are you going to do if the beer does come out too malty? As written, your recipe has three distinct sets of variables, each of which complicates a definitive answer to that question. If you reduce the variables to just the decoction, you still have to control: Whether to decoct twice, once or do it at all; what type of base malt to use. If you persist with your proposed recipe, you have rather more: Whether to decoct twice, once, or not at all; whether to use melanoidin, or not, or reduce the amount; what type of base malt to use.

One final thought - note that breweries that do decoct generally perform that process with the base malt only. One variable = easy control.

I'm not trying to be a jerk. I'm trying to save you from brewing an overwhelmingly malty beer - a half-pound per 5-gallon batch is enough on its own, but you've got dark Munich (itself a significant provider of melanoidin) and you're going to decoct.

If you brew your proposed recipe, you're going to have an extreme example for comparison's sake! I just want you to get closer to the sweet spot the first time out. You dig?

Cheers,

Bob

 

[ChemE]

Hey Bob,

Thanks for all the great information. You're not coming across as a jerk so don't sweat it. I've got 10 pounds of MO laying around needing to get used and I really like your proposal of letting the independent variable be number of decoctions. I'm going to brew the original recipe as proposed (mostly because AHS shipped before I could ask them to sub out the Crystal 120) in order to "have an extreme example for comparison's sake" and then I think I'll use the MO and the rest of the fuggles to do a series of MO/fuggle SMaSHes with a varying number of decoctions in order to appreciate its effect on things. If the first brew is disgusting I'm not going to be too disheartened. Historically I initially attempt the crazy or inadvisable just for the hell of it and then scale back until I find the ragged edge. We chemical engineers tend to be mad scientists at heart! I'll post back here with the brewed BeerSmith file just to close this thread out. I know now when I search malty this is the first thread that comes up so perhaps it will serve to help out fellow mad scientists in a few months/years.

Prost,
ChemE

 

[DeathBrewer]

you really think the decoction will add that much? i've done it a few times, and i could hardly tell the difference between that and my infusion mash. i thought if the melanoidin was already produced, that it wouldn't have a huge effect on the grains (i.e. they are already modified)

am i wrong here? i guess i need to do some more decoctions

 

[bradsul]

..."have an extreme example for comparison's sake" and then I think I'll use the MO and the rest of the fuggles to do a series of MO/fuggle SMaSHes with a varying number of decoctions in order to appreciate its effect on things. If the first brew is disgusting I'm not going to be too disheartened...

You could always use the heavy crystal brew as a base for blending with a lighter beer. I had a mild ale experiment with crystal 120L that was way too heavy to drink on it's own. But I blended it 40/60 with an ordinary bitter and the resulting blend was extremely tasty!

 

[ChemE]

You could always use the heavy crystal brew as a base for blending with a lighter beer. I had a mild ale experiment with crystal 120L that was way too heavy to drink on it's own. But I blended it 40/60 with an ordinary bitter and the resulting blend was extremely tasty!

Now that's an interesting idea! If this first insane brew is too disgusting to drink (even after its bottle conditioned for a month) I will blend it with other finished beers in order to see if it can be salvaged. If it works for vintners it should work for us!