Malo-lactic fermentation

[CidahMastah]

You can't reliably tell if MLF is happening just from some bubbles. It might be MLF or, a bit of residual sugar, or just some dissolved co2 coming out of solution. Do you do any pH testing? What is your average rise in pH or drop in TA from the start of fermentation to bottling?

Actually you can. If your gravity reads at .098, there is no sugar left. So reliably I know by continuation of the bubbles, and from the taste, with no residual sugars.... I PH test at bottling, to ensure I am in a good range for long shelf life. I like to be at 3.3-3.5 for bottling.

give it a rest, you are continuing this round robin making yourself look more foolish.

 

[CidahMastah]

Well I would pitch it right away

I would say it should be available at any local home brew store - do you have any near you? If you don't have any stores, then you could always grab something online. Since I rely on natural malo ferments, I have never purchased a culture.

 

[Yooper]

Actually you can. If your gravity reads at .098, there is no sugar left. So reliably I know by continuation of the bubbles, and from the taste, with no residual sugars.... I PH test at bottling, to ensure I am in a good range for long shelf life. I like to be at 3.3-3.5 for bottling.

give it a rest, you are continuing this round robin making yourself look more foolish.

Careful on making comments like that! Thanks.

My ciders will ferment to .990, and even then may have some bubbling during a temperature change or barometric pressure changes. I certainly can't "see" MLF happening before my eyes either. But it does happen if I don't sulfite and if I introduce the MLF culture.

 

[CidahMastah]

I apologize to the forum readers for some of the bit snarky comments.

I do dislike it when people call me a liar for posting my own observations, and substituting what they read in a book as the gold standard. I have said it before, the power of forums is the personal experience you can report on.

Clayroc - not sure if midwest delivers to you, but you are looking for something like this:

http://www.midwestsupplies.com/catalogsearch/result/?q=Malolactic+bacteria

Not a bad price for 66gallons worth of it. You may want to read up on yeast storing so you could sustain this strain across many batches.

Good luck!

 

[clayroc]

Thanks, I did manage to find a store That had 1 pouch by wyeast. Little more then I had hoped to spend on it but thats ok it will really add to the flavor of my apple pie cider Based on the instructions on the pack i should just be able to pitch it in. It says it takes 1-3 months to finish, but didn't tell Me how I could tell it was done. Thanks for responding to me though, I post here to gain knowledge from others experience and try to share mine.

 

[gregbathurst]

It says it takes 1-3 months to finish, but didn't tell Me how I could tell it was done.

The instructions will probably be for wine. You won't find a lot written about MLF in cider. Most industrial producers don't want it because they sweeten their ciders. My belief is that the high levels of malic in cider make MLF a lot easier and more reliable. Knowing when MLF is finished is a problem for winemakers, they usually have the wine analysed by a lab because they need other results like abv, free so2, residual sugar, volatile acidity etc, so they get a test for MLF done as well. For a home cider maker who pitches culture, if the pH, so2 and temp are right it will probably complete in 2 weeks.

 

[CidahMastah]

Thanks, I did manage to find a store That had 1 pouch by wyeast. Little more then I had hoped to spend on it but thats ok it will really add to the flavor of my apple pie cider Based on the instructions on the pack i should just be able to pitch it in. It says it takes 1-3 months to finish, but didn't tell Me how I could tell it was done. Thanks for responding to me though, I post here to gain knowledge from others experience and try to share mine.

Good stuff. Much better to get one pack if you are only doing a smaller batch!

I would go by the package on the duration - many different strains out there. If it is written for wine, cider has more malic acid, so it may take longer. Lucky ferment temp for me is 64f +/- 2F

 

[clayroc]

Gotcha, well my temp in my cold room sits there about 66F or so. I had planed to let this age for a long time because I want to carb it and pasteurize it after for a sweet finish. Do you rack it to a secondary then? Or should I leave it in primary till the MLF is done?

 

[truckjohn]

That's the next good question...... You will find people who do both....

If you read the wine literature - you will find different flavors associated with these 2 options.... but what does your specific strain do? Not sure.... Give the packet manufacturer a call and ask them... They should know which one produces the flavors you are after....

On how long does it take.... Well - you aren't in any real hurry are you? MLF is traditionally slow.... Let it run till it clears.... It could be a couple months at your cool temperatures.... Best thing is to just let it do it's thing and leave well enough alone.

Thanks

 

[CidahMastah]

Gotcha, well my temp in my cold room sits there about 66F or so. I had planed to let this age for a long time because I want to carb it and pasteurize it after for a sweet finish. Do you rack it to a secondary then? Or should I leave it in primary till the MLF is done?

I agree with john - I would:

1. rack off your initial lees (if you haven't already)
2. then top off (with juice or water) to remove headspace
3. introduce your strain
4. leave under air lock for 2-3 months, minimum up to 6 months max then bottle.
5. if you want to carb, make a small yeast slurry and add that to your bottling bucket with your priming sugar and stir well (minimal aeration). Let sit 15 minutes, and stir again and bottle immediately. Your yeast will be shot by the time you want to bottle, so a new yeast introduction (same you did your primary ferment with) is needed.

 

[clayroc]

I see, well I may have things a little out of order, but I won't worry to much about that. I guess I will rack it to secondary weekend after next. I think I will contact wyeast and ask them. weather depending.

 

[CidahMastah]

I see, well I may have things a little out of order, but I won't worry to much about that. I guess I will rack it to secondary weekend after next, weather depending.

Ha - good stuff!

 

[clayroc]

I should contact wyeast and ask them some questions though, see what they suggest as well. But I will need to acquire some more carboys before I can rack it though, SWMBO wants me to make her some wine this weekend.

 

[CidahMastah]

Have you tried skeeter pee? I am making some now, so can't speak for the taste - but check it out (cheap to make lemon wine).

Sorry a bit off topic

 

[clayroc]

Nope, and after reading up on it I think I will pass on that till I have more experience and patience.

 

[dwarven_stout]

Bumping this older but informative thread...

Does malolactic fermentation typically form any sort of pellicle?

 

[Yooper]

Bumping this older but informative thread...

Does malolactic fermentation typically form any sort of pellicle?

No. You may notice airlock activity as the only "sign".

 

[Jacob_Marley]

it hadn't occurred to me that this stuff was going to undergo mlf but it should have. the question is, am i getting MLF in the bottles? what happens when that happens?? i had no intention of opening any bottles for many months.
thanks for input

In MLF you get a reduction of Total Acidity by about 33% from the conversion of Malic to Lactic.

To have MLF you need to have the lactic acid bacteria present ... whether wild or purchased. This may or may not be the case with your sealed-up cider but the bacteria is quite common.

IF you do get MLF in the bottles ... it absolutely *can* cause enough pressure to explode the bottles. Further, wild unintended strains of the bacteria can cause off odors.

I would pop the tops ... carefully transfer back into a *glass* fermenting jug and put an airlock on it. As an important batch, to avoid oxygen I'd actually rack with tubing rather than pouring/splashing. If you want to be as safe as possible, give it about 5 or so months before re-corking or bottling.

As well, you could actually purchase the *proper* lactic acid bacteria and introduce MLF yourself. This is actually a pretty good idea too as wild strains of the bacteria can give unintended faults in the wine. And with the apples you used ... it sounds like this would be an ideal candidate for the good effects of MLF!


EDIT ... curses! ... didn't notice this was bumped from february. Well, just to add to the pot ... I'll leave my post as is.

 

[CidahMastah]

Bumping this older but informative thread...

Does malolactic fermentation typically form any sort of pellicle?

Quite a few times I have noticed that when my wild malolactic fermentations start I get a haze that forms in my ciders after they had already fallen clear. YMMV

 

[seabass07]

I have a bit of a pellicle forming in my cider. The cider was heat pasteurized when I bought it. I added MLF cultures after 3 weeks in primary. It's been about 5 weeks since I added the cultures. The MLF seems to be done since all of the tartness is gone and it has gotten very smooth.

Is it possible that this pellicle is from the MLF cultures?

 

[gregbathurst]

No, maybe from too much headspace or something. I think you should maybe bottle now if it still tastes ok. Once in the bottle it should be safe. Maybe add some campden before bottling.

 

[Orerockon]

I see a lot of good info here on MLF and primary fermentation, but not really a schedule or typical times at specific temps. I am using my apples and a friend's (windfalls and all) picked the 2nd week of Oct. (we live in the Pacific NW, in a typical Mediterranean climate). It's mostly tart varieties like Braeburn, Ashmead, Cox Pippin, with a good heap of Granny Smiths thrown in (they are very early this year) I find 68-75f F for the primary at White lab's site, my room will be at 70-72 F. When the primary is finished I plan to add MLB. I see 65 F for MLF conversion but not when to add it, can I assume when the primary is done? I've moved the carboys to a cool room for this that gets progressively colder through the winter, but it usually stays around 60 +/- range for at least a few weeks. I can use a warmer room, stays a little cooler than the primary at 67-70 +/-. Then I rack off after the conversion stops and let it rest all winter, bottling with added sugar for sparkling cider in the spring. I've seen suggestions for a tertiary racking but I'm not when. Should I rack it off before adding the MLB then again after it stops?

Can someone give a general schedule based on what I see and not on what "should" be going on?

 

[gregbathurst]

You don't have to wait for the end of primary, I find 4-5 days in is a good time to pitch MLF (at the temperatures you are using). MLF is completely different to yeast fermentation, so there isn't really a schedule for how to do it. If your cider will cool down over winter you should do it soon so it will be finished while the temperatures are still warm. I have the same situation.
Be aware that MLF produces transient flavor molecules that will make the cider taste worse for a few weeks. It will take about a month after pitching for the fruit flavors to come back.

 

[palantier]

what species of lactobacillus is often used for malo-lactic fermentation?

 

[jsiddall]

Quite a few times I have noticed that when my wild malolactic fermentations start I get a haze that forms in my ciders after they had already fallen clear. YMMV

This is very interesting. I just made a cider that had been cleared and still for about a week, then one day I noticed it was cloudy with visible bubbling. This batch was made from pasteruized unfiltered (fresh) cider. I guess either it didn't all get killed in the pasteurization or something came in from the air. Curious to see how it turns out.

 

[MarkKF]

OK, I'm a novice on my fourth year of making cider. The routine I use is fermentation from fresh pressed cider in the fall. I rack into the secondary before christmas, about when the temps in my basement drop below 60 deg. I bottle in late spring or early summer. I've noticed that the longer I wait the better it is. Also, I've noticed some airlock activity as the basement temp. rises. I know I was already fermented dry long before then.

So, is the better flavor & airlock activity probably due to Malolactic Fermentation starting in the spring when the temp. rises?

I don't have the equipment or desire to do a lot of temp. control, cold crash, etc. so I stick to more traditional methods.

 

[MarkKF]

sorry, I posted twice. seems to happen a lot lately.

 

[schwiz]

I'm pretty sure I have a wild MLF going on. Had a wonderful batch of very tart/sour dry cider, transferred to secondary. After a few weeks now instead of starting to clear up I am still seeing lots of c02 bubbles and the cider is very cloudy. I've been tasting it every week or so and I've noticed a significant drop in the tart/sour level. So far I think its an improvement, not sure if I should let it ride or drop in some campden while I'm still happy with the taste. Thoughts?

 

[brwagur]

what species of lactobacillus is often used for malo-lactic fermentation?

Commercial cultures are usually Oenococcus oeni, but other bacteria can do it too.

 

[Jacob_Marley]

... I'm pretty sure I have a wild MILF going on. ...

Um. Dude! ah, that sounds awesome. Uh, what?

ah, ok I think that Sifl & Olly video someone posted in the "Your Celebrity Free Pass List" thread in the Drunken Ramblings forum really messed with my head.

nevermind


;-)