Making a starter with sour dregs - am I doing it right?

[TravelingLight]

I want to start culturing some dregs from some viable sours I have in my cellar for a sour I have coming up soon. I've never done a starter before (always used dry yeast). Basically I want to make sure my process is correct and ask a few questions I have. Here's what I was planning:

1. Combine 12g DME and 200ml water and boil for 5 minutes (hoping this gives me a weak starter around 1.020-1.025ish??).

2. Cool the wort and add it to a sanitized jar (probably using a 500ml Erlenmeyer).

3. Add dregs to the flask, cover with sanitized foil or an airlock (probably just get a bung and an airlock). ETA: Now I see where the air lock would not be optimal. Tin foil it is!

Assuming that process is sound, I have a couple questions...

A. No need to keep this starter in the fridge, correct? I can just leave it out as I would a beer in primary?

B. I would like to be able to add dregs from different sours over the course of about 4 weeks until I'm ready to pitch them to my sour. Will four weeks be too long for this?

C. I plan on pitching this with the PC Oud Bruin blend/ Any problems pitching them at the same time or should I stagger them?

Feel free to point out any glaring omissions I have made. Many thanks.

 

[porterpounder]

Looks like a worthy process. Considering those dregs may have been in a bottle for months or even years depending on which ones you're using, 4 weeks won't be an issue. Keep it rolling, stay as sanitary as possible as you can still infect the started with unwanted bugs. Pitch at the same time as the blend and be prepared for an active fermentation.

 

[TravelingLight]

Looks like a worthy process. Considering those dregs may have been in a bottle for months or even years depending on which ones you're using, 4 weeks won't be an issue. Keep it rolling, stay as sanitary as possible as you can still infect the started with unwanted bugs. Pitch at the same time as the blend and be prepared for an active fermentation.

Thanks for the vote of confidence. Does it matter if I am using bottle dregs from brett-only beers vs. brett and microbe beers? Some of the dregs would likely have some brett and bacteria. Just making sure that won't be an issue. I don't see where it would be an issue.

 

[BGBC]

Plan sounds good overall. I've done something similar and continue to keep a 'house sour culture' in an airlocked growler. I feed it every few months with some fresh starter wort and bottle up a couple bottles of the beer.

Another way to do it is to add some weak starter to each bottle individually as you drink them, then combine. Only potential benefit to this method is being able to taste the individual dreg contributions before adding to the mixed culture.

Brett-only vs mixed culture doesn't really matter if you're combining all of them, especially over only 4 weeks. The bacteria might take off faster than the brett, but probably only an issue if you plan on keeping this mixed culture going for an extended period of time. If so, you can monitor the acidity in the starter and tone it down by adding some hopped starter wort to inhibit the bacteria.

 

[TravelingLight]

Plan sounds good overall. I've done something similar and continue to keep a 'house sour culture' in an airlocked growler. I feed it every few months with some fresh starter wort and bottle up a couple bottles of the beer.

Another way to do it is to add some weak starter to each bottle individually as you drink them, then combine. Only potential benefit to this method is being able to taste the individual dreg contributions before adding to the mixed culture.

Brett-only vs mixed culture doesn't really matter if you're combining all of them, especially over only 4 weeks. The bacteria might take off faster than the brett, but probably only an issue if you plan on keeping this mixed culture going for an extended period of time. If so, you can monitor the acidity in the starter and tone it down by adding some hopped starter wort to inhibit the bacteria.

Fantastic info, thanks. I've actually decided to not use dregs for this sour. After talking to Tonsmiere about it, I don't want any brett in this beer because of the extended time if I'm bottling this one. However, this thread is still helpful because I'd like to get a sour starter going anyway. I keep feeling like I am wasting precious bugs every time I drink a sour and dump the dregs down the drain.

So you put an air lock on yours? Can I ask why? I'm just trying to understand. I've read where some people use air locks and others don't. The ones who don't say it doesn't allow any oxygen in for the bugs. But something I just thought about...are you using a stir plate? Thanks, just trying to make sense of all the ins and outs.

 

[BGBC]

When you're talking about building up dregs just to grow an initial pitch for a brew in a few weeks, no airlock is fine. I started mine in a 1-quart mason jar (captured 5-6 bottles worth of dregs at a single beer tasting and went from there). No stir plate, limited oxygenation to avoid any risk of excessive acetic acid production.

However, I've been keeping the culture going for over a year now - take some slurry out for a brew, add fresh wort, airlock in between. Keeping it open for an extended period of time would be detrimental to the mixed culture and probably lead to a growler full of vinegar.

 

[TravelingLight]

When you're talking about building up dregs just to grow an initial pitch for a brew in a few weeks, no airlock is fine. I started mine in a 1-quart mason jar (captured 5-6 bottles worth of dregs at a single beer tasting and went from there). No stir plate, limited oxygenation to avoid any risk of excessive acetic acid production.

However, I've been keeping the culture going for over a year now - take some slurry out for a brew, add fresh wort, airlock in between. Keeping it open for an extended period of time would be detrimental to the mixed culture and probably lead to a growler full of vinegar.

Thanks for the info. So, based on your advice, you're saying if I plan on keeping this longer (maybe even up to a year), I'll be fine (and you would advocate) putting an airlock on instead of sealing it with foil? I think I like this idea better. And I've got plenty of growlers lying around and I could just drill a hole in the cap, pop in a grommet (need to figure out what size) and throw an AL on there.

 

[BGBC]

Yes, but ditch the cap/grommet and get a #6 drilled rubber stopper.

 

[millsbrew]

You want oxygen to get into a starter to promote growth. You'll be ditching the "beer" in the starter and using the yeast/bacteria left behind. So off flavors aren't an issue. And keep it warm as long as you can before you brew. No need to store in a fridge with brett/bacteria.

 

[TravelingLight]

You want oxygen to get into a starter to promote growth. You'll be ditching the "beer" in the starter and using the yeast/bacteria left behind. So off flavors aren't an issue. And keep it warm as long as you can before you brew. No need to store in a fridge with brett/bacteria.

Thanks for the explanation. That makes sense. I'll start with the sanitized foil and leave that if I'm only building it for a month or so. But switch to an airlock if I'm going to build it out longer than a month or so.

 

[rideincircles]

I got a few good things out of this thread. Bottling a house sour beer culture is a good idea that I may implement.

I have a starter going from a cantillon bottle I stepped up a few times since March. Even stepped up it still smells like the kriek, its about 1 liter now and occasionally I have swirled it up and it still kicks up a ton of carbonation, but otherwise I will be pitching some into my consecration clone which is already fermented, along with some other test sour batches. These will be my first sours after 5 years of brewing.

Should I dump the liquid on top and just pitch the dregs, or is it fine to dump some in just stirred up? there is a small pellicle on top. Next time I may pitch the bugs with the original yeast, but I now have a few yeasts that have caught the cantillon bug in the fermentation chamber.

I now learned that an active sour culture can infect active yeast cultures nearby. I had my cantillon starter going in my fridge in a 2 liter flask and had some one liter flask starters next to it going with just foil caps and they somehow got infected with the cantillon strain and formed a pellicle. My LHBS said this can happen, so I quarantined the yeast and now have a few mixed cultures of vermont ipa/cantillon, martin haouse saison/cantillon, and abbey/cantillon. I also got a small starter culture going from the fridge with nothing in it and I think it may be the same bugs.

I figure i may do a large test lambic or light sour and split them up to see what does the best out of them. All I know is they got the bug while using a foil cap. I never had a yeast starter catch anything like this.

Any idea what bugs from the cantillon strain could do that? Here is a picture. The cantillon yeast is in the back corner.

 

[TravelingLight]

I got a few good things out of this thread. Bottling a house sour beer culture is a good idea that I may implement.

I have a starter going from a cantillon bottle I stepped up a few times since March. Even stepped up it still smells like the kriek, its about 1 liter now and occasionally I have swirled it up and it still kicks up a ton of carbonation, but otherwise I will be pitching some into my consecration clone which is already fermented, along with some other test sour batches. These will be my first sours after 5 years of brewing.

Should I dump the liquid on top and just pitch the dregs, or is it fine to dump some in just stirred up? there is a small pellicle on top. Next time I may pitch the bugs with the original yeast, but I now have a few yeasts that have caught the cantillon bug in the fermentation chamber.

I now learned that an active sour culture can infect active yeast cultures nearby. I had my cantillon starter going in my fridge in a 2 liter flask and had some one liter flask starters next to it going with just foil caps and they somehow got infected with the cantillon strain and formed a pellicle. My LHBS said this can happen, so I quarantined the yeast and now have a few mixed cultures of vermont ipa/cantillon, martin haouse saison/cantillon, and abbey/cantillon. I also got a small starter culture going from the fridge with nothing in it and I think it may be the same bugs.

I figure i may do a large test lambic or light sour and split them up to see what does the best out of them. All I know is they got the bug while using a foil cap. I never had a yeast starter catch anything like this.

Any idea what bugs from the cantillon strain could do that? Here is a picture. The cantillon yeast is in the back corner.

I'm far from an expert, but I would recommend just swirling up and dumping in, i.e., not decanting off and just pitching the dregs. Brett and bugs don't crash out as readily as sacc does. So when I have mixed cultures, I typically pitch it without decanting.

 

[Dcpcooks]

Keeping your starters cold will extend shelf life and prevent growth and is a good practice.

You'll want to use an air lock to retard acetic acid production unless your trying to grow the culture.

You'll want to feed your cultures over time. Kinda like a sour dough starter.

Four weeks isn't too long to hold them. But you'll probably want to add fresh wort 10 days before you plan to use them.




You should read American sours. It has some good insight for culturing and maintaining sour cultures.