Making a sour

[RPh_Guy]

So you are also saying that if you do not want yeast to contribute flavor, fully, you can pitch earlier in the process.

Right, acidity suppresses yeast expression.

Pre-soured wort fermented with US-05 is lager-like.
Post-soured beer (delayed bacteria) has full yeast expression. Great for flavorful yeast.
Co-soured beer (both pitched at the same time) is somewhere in the middle, depending on various factors. Most convenient.

 

[HopsAreGood]

If I added lactose to the boil would it be consumed by the lactobacillus? I know sacch can not ferment lactose but this is all a bit new to me. If it does then the only way to add lactose to one of these beers would be to kill the bacteria first by boiling it again, then adding the lactose. Is this correct?

 

[Jag75]

Dont add lactose to the boil. In a post sour you mash and boil normal. The lacto comes after the yeast you pitch.

 

[RPh_Guy]

If I added lactose to the boil would it be consumed by the lactobacillus? I know sacch can not ferment lactose but this is all a bit new to me. If it does then the only way to add lactose to one of these beers would be to kill the bacteria first by boiling it again, then adding the lactose. Is this correct?

It's fine to add lactose in the boil. It will still be left unfermented.

Lactobacilli consume very little of the sugar in beer. They are self-limiting; they stop eating sugar (producing acid) once the pH drops to a certain point, around 3.1-3.3 for most available strains.

Hope this makes sense

 

[Beer666]

I don't under-pitch kveik, I use a whole pouch and it produces a very high amount of esters when held at 95°F (I've used both Voss and Hornindal).

For a Hornindal sour I made, I pitched the L. plantarum 12 hours after the Hornindal, since fermentation was well underway. It was an excellent beer -- lots of pineapple and mango. I did not add hops or fruit to it.

If your lag time is 12 hours with your preferred kveik pitch rate, I think pitching Lacto at 20-24 hours is good. Don't worry about it not souring enough.
Taste it before adding hops or fruit.

Adding fruit directly to primary is fine as long as there's physical space for it, and the resulting fermentation. Fruit tends to create more foam/blow-off.

Cheers

I have only tried pitching lacto with voss at the same time. Fermented at 37c. The beer was only slightly sour but was very nice and drinkable. I have tried once to pitch the lacto first but it smelled of vomit within a few hours (was a no boil wort).
Is it a good idea to ferment in the 30's? Would you recommend boiling the wort before souring or is pasteurisation enough?

 

[RPh_Guy]

I have only tried pitching lacto with voss at the same time. Fermented at 37c. The beer was only slightly sour but was very nice and drinkable. I have tried once to pitch the lacto first but it smelled of vomit within a few hours (was a no boil wort).
Is it a good idea to ferment in the 30's? Would you recommend boiling the wort before souring or is pasteurisation enough?

The kveik are best when fermented at the upper end of their listed temperature range. Around 33-38°C (90-100°F) is preferred.
Lactobacillus plantarum is the preferred species for quick souring. No hops until it's sour.

With adequate sanitation you don't need to boil when co-souring or post-souring. The risk of contamination is very low with these processes (especially when you correctly adjust your mash pH or use extract). However I generally boil because it's even less risky; it's difficult to properly sanitize the hot side equipment with surface sanitizers.

I definitely recommend boiling and pre-acidifying the wort when pre-souring; the contamination risk is much higher.

 

[Beer666]

The kveik are best when fermented at the upper end of their listed temperature range. Around 33-38°C (90-100°F) is preferred.
Lactobacillus plantarum is the preferred species for quick souring. No hops until it's sour.

With adequate sanitation you don't need to boil when co-souring or post-souring. The risk of contamination is very low with these processes (especially when you correctly adjust your mash pH or use extract). However I generally boil because it's even less risky; it's difficult to properly sanitize the hot side equipment with surface sanitizers.

I definitely recommend boiling and pre-acidifying the wort when pre-souring; the contamination risk is much higher.

Thanks really helpful, starting to get my head around it now. Is it ok to use enough acid malt to get to a 4.5 ph? I do not have a ph meter?

 

[Jag75]

Rph , when you boil a kettle sour doesnt that stop the souring? So if you add the lacto in as your boiling wouldn't it be a waste of lacto?

 

[HopsAreGood]

Dont add lactose to the boil. In a post sour you mash and boil normal. The lacto comes after the yeast you pitch.

Right...that I understand. What I mean is if I mash as usual, then do a 15 minute boil just to kill any nasties, then chill to about 90, pitch my yeast, then pitch the lactobacillus about 12 hours later. I’m asking if adding the lactose during that initial 15 minute boil (I usually add it with about 5-10 minutes left) would be problematic down the road once I introduce the lactobacillus. I would not be boiling the beer again. Hope that clears it up.

As I re-read this are you thinking lactose and lactobacillus are the same thing? Lactose is milk sugar that will give a creamy mouthfeel and lactobacillus is obviously the bacteria. I can’t quite tell so forgive me if I’m assuming incorrectly.

 

[HopsAreGood]

It's fine to add lactose in the boil. It will still be left unfermented.

Lactobacilli consume very little of the sugar in beer. They are self-limiting; they stop eating sugar (producing acid) once the pH drops to a certain point, around 3.1-3.3 for most available strains.

Hope this makes sense

Great. So there won’t be any weird interactions that take place between lactose (milk sugar) and lactobacillus at any point that will cause off flavors or anything undesirable?

 

[Jag75]

Right...that I understand. What I mean is if I mash as usual, then do a 15 minute boil just to kill any nasties, then chill to about 90, pitch my yeast, then pitch the lactobacillus about 12 hours later. I’m asking if adding the lactose during that initial 15 minute boil (I usually add it with about 5-10 minutes left) would be problematic down the road once I introduce the lactobacillus. I would not be boiling the beer again. Hope that clears it up.

As I re-read this are you thinking lactose and lactobacillus are the same thing? Lactose is milk sugar that will give a creamy mouthfeel and lactobacillus is obviously the bacteria. I can’t quite tell so forgive me if I’m assuming incorrectly.

Oh yes I was thinking Lactobacillus lol. Disregard ....carry on sir .

 

[RPh_Guy]

Thanks really helpful, starting to get my head around it now. Is it ok to use enough acid malt to get to a 4.5 ph? I do not have a ph meter?

You could use acidulated malt, added to the mash after an hour and then mashed for another 15-30 minutes...
However I don't recommend acidulated malt for anything other than getting mash pH into the 5.2-5.6 range. I don't use it for even that because I prefer the liquid.

If you don't have a pH meter, 10mL of 88% lactic acid would be reasonable to pre-acidify 5 gallons of pale wort.

You only need to pre-acidify when you pre-sour. While that's a valid process, I prefer the other methods that are easier, more flavorful, and less risky.

Great. So there won’t be any weird interactions that take place between lactose (milk sugar) and lactobacillus at any point that will cause off flavors or anything undesirable?

Nope, it's all good!

 

[RPh_Guy]

Great. So there won’t be any weird interactions that take place between lactose (milk sugar) and lactobacillus at any point that will cause off flavors or anything undesirable?

As a matter of fact, it's very easy making yogurt. You just need milk and your Lacto culture.

• Re-pasteurize the milk (optional) and chill to 100°F
• Add Lacto to a container (e.g. jar) of milk
• Let it sit in a warm place, covered for 24-48 hours
• Drain off the whey, through cheesecloth or similar

 

[Soulshine2]

I used goodbellys juice . Didnt go with the yogurt.

I found Goodbellys at Publix yesterday!!! I got a 16 oz of the Pomegranate/Blackberry. How much do I need for a 5 gallon batch and since its flavored with the same blackberry, does that volume count as part of the volume I'll add of fruit /gallon ?

 

[Jag75]

I found Goodbellys at Publix yesterday!!! I got a 16 oz of the Pomegranate/Blackberry. How much do I need for a 5 gallon batch and since its flavored with the same blackberry, does that volume count as part of the volume I'll add of fruit /gallon ?

Man pomegranate blackberry sounds really good. I used the whole container . I didnt add that to the fruit .

 

[Soulshine2]

Man pomegranate blackberry sounds really good. I used the whole container . I didnt add that to the fruit .

the only other one in the cooler was blueberry acai. sounded good but I didnt want to detract from the blackberry too much.
Thanks, I appreciate the help. Look at me , going waaaay outside my comfort brewing zone. You might expect a PM when I actually brew this.

 

[Jag75]

the only other one in the cooler was blueberry acai. sounded good but I didnt want to detract from the blackberry too much.
Thanks, I appreciate the help. Look at me , going waaaay outside my comfort brewing zone. You might expect a PM when I actually brew this.

Anytime man . I used the blueberry acai and 5 lbs of blueberries. I'll do the pomegranate blackberry for their next sour. I want to like sours so much but I can only take a few sips , but they love em. This style was way out of my comfort zone as well lol so i feel ya . Good luck with the brew sir.

 

[jaymosbeershack]

Im kegging my first sour today. The 5 lb of fresh blackberries wasnt enough, but the beer itself is solid. Cant wait to get it carbed up. I used the @RPH mixes ferm method as well.

 

[Soulshine2]

Im kegging my first sour today. The 5 lb of fresh blackberries wasnt enough, but the beer itself is solid. Cant wait to get it carbed up. I used the @RPH mixes ferm method as well.

Wasnt enough, you cant taste any blackberries??

 

[jaymosbeershack]

I can taste em, but is subtle. I was also expecting more of a burgundy, and it came out pink. Still very happy with the beer, maybe the fruit will come out more with age.

Wasnt enough, you cant taste any blackberries??

 

[Soulshine2]

I can taste em, but is subtle. I was also expecting more of a burgundy, and it came out pink. Still very happy with the beer, maybe the fruit will come out more with age.View attachment 638062

when did you add the berries- during the boil, flameout, day 3 of fermentation, secondary,etc?

 

[cactusgarrett]

And in what form did you add them - whole, pureed, frozen/thawed, etc.? I would imagine a method that more involves the breakdown of the berries would help impart the dark color and more flavor.

 

[jaymosbeershack]

I added them day 4 of fermentation. They were pureed. Got em fresh, froze them for about a week and then thawed and pureed.

 

[isomerization]

I added them day 4 of fermentation. They were pureed. Got em fresh, froze them for about a week and then thawed and pureed.

Did you strain the purée? I’m guessing if the skins are removed you might lose a lot of the coloring? When I’ve used berries (1-2 lb/gal of raspberry, blueberry and/or blackberry), I get much deeper red/purple colors.

 

[Jag75]

Yup ^^^^ after a week or 2 the blueberries were mostly white.

 

[Soulshine2]

I just want the easiest way . I dont want to ruin any kettles, fermenters or kegs . I was under the impression that doing a sour Jack's up your stuff. I will more then likely bottle them .

Jag, Im going to be making a small batch kettle sour with my blackberries (with lime and hibiscus) soon (finally) . I'm just going to bleach solution clean the kettle afterwards so the funk doesnt ruin any future brews. Come to think of it , I might just go buy a food grade 5 gallon bucket (Walmart < $3)and dedicate it for sours.

 

[RPh_Guy]

Jag, Im going to be making a small batch kettle sour with my blackberries (with lime and hibiscus) soon (finally) . I'm just going to bleach solution clean the kettle afterwards so the funk doesnt ruin any future brews. Come to think of it , I might just go buy a food grade 5 gallon bucket (Walmart < $3)and dedicate it for sours.

You absolutely don't need to do anything to sanitize the kettle. Ever.
The whole point of kettle souring is to keep the bacteria where it can be killed with heat.

With Lactobacillus plantarum, there's no need for kettle souring or separate sour equipment.
It is not any more difficult to clean and sanitize than the normal yeast you're using AND it's extremely hop-sensitive so there's no chance of contamination even if you don't clean properly.

Hope this helps.

 

[Jag75]

Jag, Im going to be making a small batch kettle sour with my blackberries (with lime and hibiscus) soon (finally) . I'm just going to bleach solution clean the kettle afterwards so the funk doesnt ruin any future brews. Come to think of it , I might just go buy a food grade 5 gallon bucket (Walmart < $3)and dedicate it for sours.

That sounds good . Like Rph said you wont need to do all that . Your going with kettle sour or you doing post blend sour?

 

[Soulshine2]

Kettle

 

[jaymosbeershack]

Well, my very first sour placed in a comp. Getting beat out by May Lei and David is nothing to be embarassed about, trust me. Thanks everyone for the inspiration and knowledge.