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Spent some time Googling to answer my own question. "Navajo" appears to be one example, though they're one of few exceptions among aboriginal Americans.
Alex, drinking water is very good for you generally. Drinking untreated water direct from clean surface water sources is even better, because it contains algae oils like essential omega-3 fatty acids. Historically, in most places, water would have been much more beneficial than alcohol. Even though ethanol consumption is so enjoyable. Nor is the pleasure restricted to humans.

 
Do you want to elaborate a bit here. Maybe draw out your thought process so it becomes more coherent?
I'd hate to not be coherent. My suggestion is that in most agricultural societies before industrialization, farmers did make a beer-like beverage from whatever starch was on hand and well suited to brewing. Potatoes were introduced to Europe only in the late 16th century. So prior to this, if there were Norwegian farmers making a beer-like beverage (there probably were) they weren't using potatoes to make it.

On balance, I find the statement "Norwegian farmers have a history of making beer" plausible. There's been evidence presented in this thread supporting it. Your statements refuting it ("A small number of farming families off the grid in rural Norway have been distilling spud moonshine illegally for the last 200 years.") seem ... well ... more like "wild speculation, guesswork and beliefs."
 
I'd hate to not be coherent. My suggestion is that in most agricultural societies before industrialization, farmers did make a beer-like beverage from whatever starch was on hand and well suited to brewing. Potatoes were introduced to Europe only in the late 16th century. So prior to this, if there were Norwegian farmers making a beer-like beverage (there probably were) they weren't using potatoes to make it.

On balance, I find the statement "Norwegian farmers have a history of making beer" plausible. There's been evidence presented in this thread supporting it. Your statements refuting it ("A small number of farming families off the grid in rural Norway have been distilling spud moonshine illegally for the last 200 years.") seem ... well ... more like "wild speculation, guesswork and beliefs."
Norway isn't really an agricultural society. It never was and never will be. Put simply, it doesn't have enough arable land, for the umpteenth time. The fact the 'farmers party' now form a coalition government in Norway really is something out of Monty Python. Like 'craft beer' potatoes arrived in Norway later than the rest of Europe. And, Alex, before simply regurgitating the words I type and expressing 'you're all out of ideas' please visit Norway some time and find out for yourself. Please don't take my world for it. It really hasn't changed that much in most places. Were it not for the occasional green John Deere tractor you'd struggle to guess which century you were in. Not exactly a celebration of cultural development in any respect, including brewing.
 
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The myths are true. There are trolls in Norway.
You might want to consider why the phrase 'troll' was coined to describe that kind of thing in the first place. More irony. But whatever helps you understand your world better helps you to understand your world better. Not my responsibility, frankly.
 
My first post, but feel I need to give some "inside information" about Norway and Norwegians 🙂

Alcholic drinks have been hugely important in Norway at least from the Viking age (first Norwegian written history I can think of). A lot of stories about drinking in Norse mythology and we had the Gulating law (900-1300) which regulated brewing. All farms had to brew beer or they would be fined and if they didn't brew three years in a row they would loose their farm. So brewing beer has been serious business 😀

You also had to attend parties where you drank in honor of the gods, and you had to get drunk or the brewer would be shamed for not having strong enough beer. It didn't matter if you were the priest or the police, you had to get drunk. Maybe it's why we still get wasted each weekend 😄

We have a lot of brewing tradition in Norway, but it's mostly local farm tradition and not widely known. I guess much of the reason is that Norway was under Danish and Swedish ruling between 1380-1905 and thus Norwegian tradition was frowned upon. After the unions, christianity, sobriety and a law called ølloven (the beer law) forbade brewing at home unless you made your own malt (1912-1999).

So there was a long period where we had to keep brewing "hidden". I think this partly explains why brewing tradition in Norway is little known to the rest of the world. Another reason could be "janteloven" (google it) which stand strong in Norway.

But today local breweries are popping up everywhere and some of them are making fantastic beer. This have given a spark to local farm brewing and people want to learn more about old brewing traditions.
 
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Edit: Alex, it's OK. Most people are born to be conned by con artists. They just don't like to admit it and even express denial about it, if pushed, facilitating the con artist's agenda even more. You couldn't make it up. It's perfectly normal, though. I just can't help imagining it as some kind of 'Monty Python' sketch. A small number of farming families off the grid in rural Norway have been distilling spud moonshine illegally for the last 200 years. Some nosey craft-nerd city bloke from Oslo shows up asking awkward questions about 'kveik' and the farmers just nod their heads suspiciously, eyes glazed with guilt above fake grins, elbowing each other in the ribs and claiming 'they've been craft brewing ales for centuries'. The city bloke's excitement too difficult to contain so off he bloggs with no idea.

Cheers!
Wow nice perspective. Welcome to my ignore list.
 
damn, and the first time i tuned into this, i only made to the third post...laughed and left....didn't realize it went on further ;) lol


but honestly if i understand it, a no-boil extract batch with juniper and berries....i'd make a tincture with the juniper, being they're not going to be boiled...and just toss the berries in a food proccessor or something...


edit: and honestly @McMullan , you're going to make an argument to drink water? ;) :mug:


edit 2: and as far as yeast goes, i'd say just keep repitching for a year or so and fermenting warm? and that's a serious statement....create your own kviek?
 
Most people are born to be conned by con artists. They just don't like to admit it and even express denial about it, if pushed, facilitating the con artist's agenda even more.

Hey man,.I appreciate your input on the matter in the first couple of posts, but I find that condescending "Wake up, sheeple!"- rhetorics unacceptable.
 
My first post, but feel I need to give some "inside information" about Norway and Norwegians 🙂

Alcholic drinks have been hugely important in Norway at least from the Viking age (first Norwegian written history I can think of). A lot of stories about drinking in Norse mythology and we had the Gulating law (900-1300) which regulated brewing. All farms had to brew beer or they would be fined and if they didn't brew three years in a row they would loose their farm. So brewing beer has been serious business 😀

You also had to attend parties where you drank in honor of the gods, and you had to get drunk or the brewer would be shamed for not having strong enough beer. It didn't matter if you were the priest or the police, you had to get drunk. Maybe it's why we still get wasted each weekend 😄

We have a lot of brewing tradition in Norway, but it's mostly local farm tradition and not widely known. I guess much of the reason is that Norway was under Danish and Swedish ruling between 1380-1905 and thus Norwegian tradition was frowned upon. After the unions, christianity, sobriety and a law called ølloven (the beer law) forbade brewing at home unless you made your own malt (1912-1999).

So there was a long period where we had to keep brewing "hidden". I think this partly explains why brewing tradition in Norway is little known to the rest of the world. Another reason could be "janteloven" (google it) which stand strong in Norway.

But today local breweries are popping up everywhere and some of them are making fantastic beer. This have given a spark to local farm brewing and people want to learn more about old brewing traditions.

Welcome to HBT, Svein!

No one is denying Norway’s relationships with alcohol ;) I think you might be right, though, Jante Law might well be at least partly responsible. The cultural poverty it promotes certainly scuppers cultural development. Being insular, recalcitrant and suspicious of outsiders don’t exactly promote much in terms of cultural traditions at a national level. It’s a plausible explaination why so-called Norwegian farmhouse brewing is so eclectic rather than a newly rediscovered 'style' of brewing.

In the early 1950s there were about 180 traditional home brewers officially captured in Norway. By a survey! Probably a lot fewer 70 years later, as predicted by Odd Norland. Let’s be honest, a small inconsequential backwater in brewing, even in little Norway. The naive believe this is going to promote a new ‘farmhouse revolution’ to follow the ‘craft revolution’ is simply complete bollocks. I doubt the world’s ever going to be sufficiently prepared to accept Norwegian cuisine in any of its inglorious manifestations of the past for that fairy tale ending. Let’s be honest. At best I suspect things might develop a bit more in Norway for interested Norwegians. Outside Norway, just a small faction of the international home-brew community - mainly those who insist fairy tales are real. Experienced home brewers who adopted kveik early on now concede It’s just not the best yeast choice for most beer styles. The big pinch, for Norwegians, though, is the fact there’s not much money to be made from kveik. No one owns any rights to yeast and commercial yeast suppliers outside Norway have already saturated the market. It’s an eye-opening how many opportunists have crawled out of the woodwork to feast on the hysteria whipped up by storytellers.

My favourite Norwegian brewery is Ægir, which was set up by an American home brewer. It upped Norway's 'craft' scene considerably and, in my view, continues to lead Norway's very small market. The consistency and quality just can't be beaten. Unless it's pouring from my kegs, of course 🤫 Norwegian 'farmhouse' ale is little more than quaint nostalgia celebrating historical poverty and isn't a contender or even competition for modern brewers. In fact, if one were to superimpose chronic levels of historical poverty and social exclusion across northern Europe I'd be very surprised if there wasn't a perfect match with Garshol's maps for traditional farmhouse brewing. Personally, as a humanist, I don't really view it as something to celebrate at all. Nor is it brewing better, in my honest opinion.
 
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Wow nice perspective. Welcome to my ignore list.
That strongly suggests you’re a dedicated follower of fairy tales. Hook, line and sinker. Otherwise you’d have realised without much effort it was mainly meant to be humorous. Blatantly so. Easily lost on people biased by their beliefs, I guess. Not really my responsibility, though. Other people’s biases, that is.
 
Hey man,.I appreciate your input on the matter in the first couple of posts, but I find that condescending "Wake up, sheeple!"- rhetorics unacceptable.
To be fair, I think anyone sufficiently knowledgeable would get so irritated by the inflated sales-pitch language, sweeping statements, assumptions and naive associations, they’d struggle to finish the introduction without uttering at least a few ‘WTFs?’ I think the awkwardly biased logic expressed for what seem to be preconceived ideas and the clumsy language expose someone who’s clearly a non-expert in most relevant fields to good research and didn’t listen hard enough to those who might have offered expert advice. I'd stick some responsibility on the editors too, to be honest. For a non-expert to brazenly attempt to support his opinions by claiming modern brewing scientists are wrong is just completely laughable, however you want to read it. But clearly he’s a man on a mission to sell us something. I had no idea that until 1970 fully over half of the people on the planet were farmers cultivating grains therefore farmhouse brewers. I didn’t even know you had to be a farmer to brew beer. WTF! Most of us modern home brewers must be illegitimate. Mind blowing. Seriously, though, this is what credible evidence looks like, to me. I chose this interesting research for a good reason.

From the book I should apparently read:
Farmhouse brewing has existed all over the world where people have grown grain: in Europe, Asia, Africa, and the Americas.

No mention of the Middle East, the cradle of modern civilisation, the birthplace of agriculture and brewing as we know it, using sprouted barley? Who you decide to take seriously is your business, matey. Not mine. But I can highly recommend this book instead. Happy reading! :mug:
 
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@McMullan , you're going to make an argument to drink water?
I thought it was quite a solid case, but it's probably advisable to view it simply as a very loose guideline these days, at least until the world's wetlands have been restored to their former glory, which is going to require huge effort and considerable volumes of beer to motivate the volunteers and keep them going :mug:
 
In the early 1950s there were about 180 traditional home brewers officially captured in Norway. By a survey!

Actually 180 is an amount larger than I would expect.
To home brew legally (up until 1999) you had to malt your own grain, so would it be likely that home brewers that were violating the law wouldn't respond to the survey?
You hear about "Farmhouse Saisons" from France and Belgium, but I'm wondering how many home brewers were around in those areas in the 1950's?
 
Whether Norwegian farmhouse ale and kveik is better than anything else I believe is a question of preference. Like my opinion that Ægir is boring and that Nøgne Ø knocks their socks off 😀

But saying that Norway have no brewing tradition is plain wrong. But I agree that the quality hasn't been as important as the quantity (at least after we stopped plundering and became a country of poor farmers) 😆
 
To home brew legally (up until 1999) you had to malt your own grain, so would it be likely that home brewers that were violating the law wouldn't respond to the survey?

I think the number is way too small, in the 1950s I think almost 50% of Norwegians was living on farms and I think almost everyone was brewing beer (at least for Christmas). In the countryside nobody cared if it wasn't allowed to brew beer without malting your own grain.

That's at least my impression based on stories from my parents/grand parents and own experiences.
 
Whether Norwegian farmhouse ale and kveik is better than anything else I believe is a question of preference. Like my opinion that Ægir is boring and that Nøgne Ø knocks their socks off 😀

But saying that Norway have no brewing tradition is plain wrong. But I agree that the quality hasn't been as important as the quantity (at least after we stopped plundering and became a country of poor farmers) 😆

I thought Nøgne Ø sold out to one of the locally established commercial providers of metallic p*ss water? Ægir seem to be doing fine, with a lot more business acumen and a healthy export market, too. I don't think there's much of an export market for funky Norwegian farmhouse dishwater, to be honest. Anyway, what I'm saying is that Norway doesn't have a definable brewing culture and what it's claimed to have is nothing special and actually inconsequential. Even if it was possible to define it as a recognisable Norwegian culture (vs a group of eclectic practices) it would still have the 'so what' factor. It just demonstrates how far behind Norway is, in terms of its brewing culture. A collection of fragmented practices maintained by social poverty and inequity on the periphery of civilisation. At one point, before commercial brewing even started, it's thought households across Europe brewed their own beer, just like they made their own meals. It had very little to do with being a farmer. 'Farmhouse' is a bit misleading. The farmer's responsibility was to provide key ingredients. Would you get the guys who work in the paint factory to spray your Tesla? I wouldn't.

Given the hidden 'class system' in Norway, where farmers appear to have Norway grasped tightly by the bollocks, it's perhaps not so surprising than the 'brewing landscape' in Norway stands out like a sore thumb compared to the rest of Europe. Most farmers in Norway have full-time jobs outside of farming, of course, because farming alone doesn't provide them with sufficient income. I can only assume they bother because of some worthwhile subsidies to be milked. Especially now they're in government :eek: I'm predicting they ban or put massive tariffs on imported beer hoping to force locals to consume traditional Norwegian farmhouse dishwater. But the local will just brew his own and possibly buy beer kits from Ægir 😉 Or shop across the Swedish border with everyone else sticking two fingers up at the Norwegian farmers who do make lots and lots of money being entitled Vikings, pillaging the land and its people.
 
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I think the number is way too small, in the 1950s I think almost 50% of Norwegians was living on farms and I think almost everyone was brewing beer (at least for Christmas). In the countryside nobody cared if it wasn't allowed to brew beer without malting your own grain.

That's at least my impression based on stories from my parents/grand parents and own experiences.
My first-hand experience of partying on a number of Norwegian farms throughout the late 90s and early 00s was that something much more higher gravity was being made. I was never offered a 'farmhouse ale' and never observed anyone drinking what might have been one. Nor do I think they were being shy in any way, because some weren't so shy with the 'home burnt'.
 
At one point, before commercial brewing even started, it's thought households across Europe brewed their own beer, just like they made their own meals. It had very little to do with being a farmer. 'Farmhouse' is a bit misleading. The farmer's responsibility was to provide key ingredients. Would you get the guys who work in the paint factory to spray your Tesla? I wouldn't.

In the beginning of 1950s there was about 200 000 farms in Norway and about 3 000 000 people. Demographics in Norway have been different than in the rest of Europe. A lot of small farms and not that many people working on large farms. Most of these farms brewed their own beer but not in large quantities, mostly for Christmas. For the regular "Saturday barn party" they would probably drink moonshine in the 50s.

My first-hand experience of partying on a number of Norwegian farms throughout the late 90s and early 00s was that something much more higher gravity was being made. I was never offered a 'farmhouse ale' and never observed anyone drinking what might have been one. Nor do I think they were being shy in any way, because some weren't so shy with the 'home burnt'.

In the 90s and 00s the demographics had changed a lot and there was not many farmers left. I guess the questions is what you define as culture/tradition. Even though something was tradition 100, 200 or 1000 years ago doesn't mean that it was passed on and is alive in the common population today. "Beer brewing" was of major importance in Norway 1000 years ago and some farms have kept that tradition, but the old ways of brewing is not a common tradition for Norwegians as a group today.

Kornøl, which was the original topic, is from the north-western parts of Norway and is a tradition with roots all the way back to the Viking age. So of course it can't really compete with new brewing methods, but it's an interesting "north-west Norway" tradition. Traditions in Norway tend to be located within a valley since people in these valleys often where isolated much of the year. So you're right that it's hard to describe it as "Norwegian culture", but it's tradition from a part of Norway. If you find it interesting or not is up to you.
 
In the beginning of 1950s there was about 200 000 farms in Norway and about 3 000 000 people. Demographics in Norway have been different than in the rest of Europe. A lot of small farms and not that many people working on large farms. Most of these farms brewed their own beer but not in large quantities, mostly for Christmas. For the regular "Saturday barn party" they would probably drink moonshine in the 50s.



In the 90s and 00s the demographics had changed a lot and there was not many farmers left. I guess the questions is what you define as culture/tradition. Even though something was tradition 100, 200 or 1000 years ago doesn't mean that it was passed on and is alive in the common population today. "Beer brewing" was of major importance in Norway 1000 years ago and some farms have kept that tradition, but the old ways of brewing is not a common tradition for Norwegians as a group today.

Kornøl, which was the original topic, is from the north-western parts of Norway and is a tradition with roots all the way back to the Viking age. So of course it can't really compete with new brewing methods, but it's an interesting "north-west Norway" tradition. Traditions in Norway tend to be located within a valley since people in these valleys often where isolated much of the year. So you're right that it's hard to describe it as "Norwegian culture", but it's tradition from a part of Norway. If you find it interesting or not is up to you.
Thank you. I do actually find it interesting. I just don't find it such a big deal. And I find the invoking of 'Vikings' as 'Europe's first true craft brewers' (which some have actually claimed with a straight face) based on 'irrefutable evidence' like discovery of what might as well have been a p*ss pot with a few grains suspected of being barley quite laughable; given the Egyptians, for example, were several millennia ahead of the Norse and other Europeans.

For the regular "Saturday barn party" they would probably drink moonshine in the 50s.

So do you think there might be a good chance this is why kveik behave like distiller's yeast?



So do you think there's any
 
So do you think there might be a good chance this is why kveik behave like distiller's yeast?

Most of the moonshine from the 50s and to present time was probably made using regular bread yeast. If kveik was used for this as well I don't know, but I don't think that was the initial purpose.
 
Most of the moonshine from the 50s and to present time was probably made using regular bread yeast. If kveik was used for this as well I don't know, but I don't think that was the initial purpose.
But, historically, baker's yeast wasn't really a thing and was only developed to a meaningful commercial level in the latter part of the 19th century elsewhere in Europe. Before then yeast from breweries was used by commercial bakeries using yeast as a biological leavening agent. What would have been used to ferment moonshine washes before baker's yeast became available?
 
Excellent work stirring it up. I leave the forums for a weekend of brewing and tending to mead and come back to a thoroughly entertaining thread. I do appreciate your input McMullan, you do have a good idea of what you are talking about and it shows. It's fantastic to have Svein drop his knowledge too, lots of insight and good information that is super interesting! I've always wanted to go visit Scandinavia ever since I was little, I have family in Denmark.
 
But, historically, baker's yeast wasn't really a thing and was only developed to a meaningful commercial level in the latter part of the 19th century elsewhere in Europe. Before then yeast from breweries was used by commercial bakeries using yeast as a biological leavening agent. What would have been used to ferment moonshine washes before baker's yeast became available?
I guess that before commercial yeast was available they would use what they used for brewing beer. But making moonshine is only a 4-500 years old tradition in Norway so if they have been able to keep the strains alive for longer it was probably initially used for beer.

But any norwegian farm yeast is probably a crazy mix since the yeast wasn't exactly stored in a sterile environment. I don't think they had much control on the characteristics of the yeast.
 
as far as i know, a sour mash? but really, the same yeast as anything else?
Spontaneous fermentations work well when sufficient desirable yeast grow naturally on the plants used as the sugar source, but the mysterious magical quality of yeast slurry was recognised and applied long before yeast was formally described. There were always alchemist's shoulders to stand on.
 

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