M27 yeast in a dubbel?

[psubrewer]

I'm considering giving Mangrove Jacks Belgian Ale yeast M27 a try in a dubbel.

Any experience with this yeast?

I'd like a more fruity characteristic without the spicy/pepper notes that i find in other "belgian" dry yeasts that i have used (T-58, Belle Saison).

 

[ronjonacron]

Post the rest of your recipe! Im craving a dubbel similar to what youre describing.

 

[stpug]

My limited experience with belgian yeasts suggests that you may want to simply look at your fermentation temperature schedule. While some strains are more or less prone to spicy phenolics, generally speaking you can avoid some/most by using a fermentation temperature that promotes more fruit esters. The higher the fruit esters produced the more they'll off-set (i.e. mask) any spicy phenolics produced. I think you should strive to unbalance the fruit esters and spice phenols to achieve what you're after, and definitely your yeast choice will make a difference.

With that in mind, I get A LOT of fruit from wyeast farmhouse ale 3726 when brought up to heat quickly (1-2 days) and allowed to ferment completely in the higher end temperature range (~90F). Too much fruit actually (bubblegum, juicyfruit, some banana) for what I was striving for (not enough spice). I have reused this yeast recently in a lower temp schedule ranging from 70 to 83F, but allowed to naturally rise over the course of about 4 days and then kept about 83F. Unfortunately, I've only had a small sample of this beer thus far, but on a quick analysis I would say it's less fruity than my previous saisons. HOWEVER, I do not feel like this yeast's characteristics are what you would want to find in a dubbel - too 'saison' like. This is more just a testament to how temperature with belgian yeast will play a HUGE role.

Check out this White Labs chart for some ideas on how temperature affects certain strains:
http://www.whitelabs.com/files/belgianchart_0.pdf

 

[psubrewer]

Great info stpug. What I'm hearing is that I really need to get pay attention to fermentation temp schedule in order to coax out the characteristics i desire in the yeast strain that I choose.

There does not seem to be a ton of information available regarding the m27 yeast I am interested in using. Maybe I'll give it a shot on a small batch and let it finish at the upper end of its range to see if I get the fruity esters I desire in a dubbel.

My recipe would be something like this:

1.080 og

60% pilsner
20% munich
10% c60
5% special b
5% wheat
15% dark Candi syrup

Single infusion mash at 152 for 60 minutes.

Start at 65, let it naturally rise to 90 after 2 days.

 

[stpug]

After reading mangrove jack's pdf of this yeast, I do not think it's going to give you what you're looking for. Here are some quotes from their pdf:

Belgian yeast strain brings all the sophistication and complexity of classic Belgian ale production to the home brew and small brewery setting. Spicy and peppery characteristics are prominent with an undertone of the ubiquitous fruity Belgian character.

This seems about opposite of what you're looking for, and very similar to 3711.

Here's more additional info on this strains fermentation characteristics (notice the recommended fermentation range):

This Belgian Ale Yeast strain is a long slow fermenter especially at very high gravities producing a moderately light krausen that never threatens to overflow the fermenter. A fairly long lag phase is typical and can extend to a full 24 hours after pitching, primary fermentation will build in intensity and temperature after this period while never threatening to get out of hand, wort of 14.050 can be at 1.010 in 7 days but this strain will ferment down to between 1.002 and 1.005 so care must be taken at bottling. This strain has an extremely high alcohol tolerance up to 14% ABV although this can take as long as a month to finish. Warmer fermentation temperatures of 79-90°F are recommended when brewing with this strain to avoid sluggish or stalled fermentations and to produce more expressive beers.

While this sounds like a great strain to try on some brew, if you're targeting fruity in your dubbel then I don't think this is the appropriate strain. You may need to look at some liquid yeasts if you're willing to venture that route.

PDF link: http://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0195/8620/files/MJ_Craft_Series__A5_Yeast_Booklet.pdf?1935

 

[psubrewer]

I agree, the literature from the manufacturer does not look promising for my preferences in a dubbel.

I was just curious if anyone had any first hand experience with this strain.

I would love a dry yeast option for my Belgians.

 

[stpug]

Read through this link I found; maybe it will help:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/anyone-used-mangrove-jacks-m27-belgian-saison-yeast-428809/

 

[stpug]

From BYO online:

A Dubbel, unlike the tripel and strong golden, is a dark beer focused on rich caramel and plum-like maltiness with a complimenting complex ester character and a slight contrast of spicy phenolics. The dubbel is not quite a big as a tripel or strong golden at 6–7% ABV but is still big enough to pack a punch. Excellent examples include Chimay Red (also called Premiere), St. Bernardus Prior 8, Westmalle Dubbel, De Konings-hoeven Dubbel, Corsendonk Brown Ale, Allagash Dubbel and New Belgium Abbey.

The best yeast strains to produce an ester character powerful enough to balance the dark malts in a dubbel are the Chimay strains: Wyeast 1214 and White Labs WLP500. The complex esters complement the rich caramel malts (especially from special B) to develop a plum and currant-like character without citrus or banana esters.

Link: http://byo.com/stories/item/1664-yeast-strains-for-belgian-strong-ales

 

[Brew_Meister_General]

I'm considering giving Mangrove Jacks Belgian Ale yeast M27 a try in a dubbel.

Any experience with this yeast?

I'd like a more fruity characteristic without the spicy/pepper notes that i find in other "belgian" dry yeasts that i have used (T-58, Belle Saison).

So have you used the M27 since? I was considering using for my farmhouse beer.

 

[stpug]

So have you used the M27 since? I was considering using for my farmhouse beer.

Funny you should ask. I have a fermenter with it right now that I'll rack on Saturday and be able to give some initial impressions. It's actually a blend of M27 and 3726 but I should be able to pick out it's characteristics because it's a split batch. One fermenter is 100% 3726 and the other is blend M27/3726 (200billion/40billion, respectively). I'll be pulling samples from each fermenter for comparison purposes. TBT, I'm fully expecting it to taste like Belle Saison but we shall see.

 

[steveabt12]

I have used M27 twice-briefly then...
Blonde og 1055
Step mash at 62, 68C. Pitched at 24C rose to max 27C
Very vigourous fermentation down to 1001 within 5 days. Huge estery aromas during first few days (banana, bubblegum and maybe a touch solvent) which bcame subdued towards end.
Very drinkable with fruity esters and mild phenolics, no off flavours, did not taste too dry or at all thin.

Dubbel g 1062
Single mash 68C. Pitched at 24 rose to 29C max. Again very vigourous ferment. Finished at 1005 within 5 days.
Very fruity beer with no discernable phenolics due to dark malts. No off flavours. Still not overly dry with full body.

Will use again. I am now trying the new M31 Belgian Tripel to compare- almost finished ferment so we will see how that goes.

Cheers

 

[Fada]

Steveabt12,

I'm really interested to hear about how your brew with the all-new Mangrove Jack's Tripel strain turns out. I myself have been wondering for quite some time about fermenting a dubbel with T58, and a tripel with a blend of T58/WB-06. Obviously, the wheat strain should provide the banana estery profile, while T58 the phenolic side. Of course all is out of question if the MJ strains are up to the task (also fingers crossed for MJ's Abbey and M41 strains).

By the way, the M27 is truly a beast when it comes to the fermentation department finishing off my 1.060 OG saison in 5 days (1.006, slowly bubbling away for some more points to be eaten away - all this at 23C pitching to 27.5C peak temps). Today is the tasting day having been bottled for 3 weeks an dwarm conditioned.

 

[steveabt12]

Hi
MJ M31 yeast
Blonde ale OG 1052, FG 1005
Mash 67C
Pitch 21C rising to max 23,5C
Slow but steady ferment, much slower tham M27. During ferment I detected no ester/phenolic or other notable aromas whatsoever(again unlike the M27).
Finished at 1005 within 6 days.
Bottle conditioned with 6g/l.
Appearance almost clear, tight creamy white head, poor retention.
Taste- no marked ester or phenolic profile ( very slight and soft ester profile more like that of English ale yeast.) Overall perfectly pleasant and drinkable but not at all what I expected.
To be fair I wasn't brewing a tripel which this yeast is designed for. I would expect the ester profile to be more pronounced in a higher gravity beer . Pitching 2 packs would probably also help.

I am trying a reformulated dubbel next with some new dark malts and sugars I have just got including Special W. At some point I will try some of the other new MJ yeasts.

Cheers.

 

[drunkinThailand]

Can I ask all of you what your ambient temperatures are? I am a new brewer who has used this yeast once before (not successfully do to bad temperature control) and currently have another brew going now with it. I've vastly improved my temperature awareness/control since the first go.

I live in Thailand and its really hot, almost always 30C+, these days (which is still not the hot season) getting to 35C most days. I know its recommended to pitch belgian yeasts low and then let them rise naturally but I am not sure in my case. I think it would get hotter than 32 C for sure. What I have done this time is to keep the ferementer in a tub of water that I am diligent with cycling frozen water bottles, gradually ramping up the temp in the tub from 25C now to 28 or 29 C at day 6. I will keep it at this temp until the end of three weeks.

What do you all think?

 

[HB_in_Subic]

I have used this yeast for my Saisons in the PI. I generally pitch my yeast at 80F. After the first 3 days you can let the temps go up to 30C. I think you are spot on and will be pleasantly surprised about how it finishes. I typically get an FG of 1.00-1.004 with this yeast. I made a dubbel with this yeast a couple of months ago and it tastes awesome. OG was 1.078 and FG of 1.00, it is definitely a favorite for me.

 

[steveabt12]

Well the temperature here can often reach 35-40C in the day. However if the night temp is around 22-25 then I find it is OK. I was apprehensive at first but now I wouldn't be worried. Be prepared for massive estery aromas when fermenting-they will fade away quickly though. It is best to start at as cool a temp as you can manage and just let it go. If you let the temp get too high then try to cool it you might find it stalls.

Drunkin, are you talking about M27 or M31? 30C average ambient is OK for M27 but too hot for M31.

I have found the M27 gets down to 1000-1002 very quickly-4 days or so.

 

[drunkinThailand]

HB - great, thanks for the info.

Steveabt12 - Yeah I was talking about M27. So you just let it sit in the ambient temp even when that gets up to 35-40 C? That's great to know. It doesn't cool down too much at night here though, but at least I know I can relax a bit about the temperature.

And I will make sure not to drop the temperature, just slow the rise and keep it from getting too high.

 

[steveabt12]

I have an SS fermenter with thermowell. I find the temp stays constant in between day and night. So if it's 35/25 ambient, the beer will be at 30 constant 32 in first few days due to heat of ferment. In your position I would try and pitch at 23 if possible-it will rise gradually from there. The bigger the vessel the more stable the temp will be. I have air-con but have never needed it.

 

[drunkinThailand]

Ok cool, thanks again for the info. It's nice to hear from someone with a thermowell.

You think I should pitch at 23? You don't think that's too low? The optimal range for M27 is 26-32, right? I know its advised to pitch a little below the optimal range, but I was thinking 25 or maybe 24. Have you pitched this low? Were you happy with the results?

 

[steveabt12]

Hi drunkin
I have pitched at 23C and it's fine, the temp will soon rise. With your high ambient temp it may get too hot too quickly if you pitch at higher temp. If you are making a higher gravity beer they recommend 2 packs. The information from MJ says the M27 can be slow to start and continues slowly but steadily. In my experience it starts very quickly (within 4hrs) and is very vigorous indeed.

Cheers and good luck, let us know how you get on.

 

[HB_in_Subic]

I would pitch at 80F. I have never had issues with it at that temp. Try to keep it below the 30C as you will get fusels if above that. Try a large wash pan or trash can with water and frozen water bottles in the water. Swap out bottles as needed to keep the water temp where you want it (below 30C). The first two days are generally the hottest, when the yeast is cranking out heat. After that they slow down and dont produce heat and it's easier to keep the temperature under control.