LP Burners for 20g batches?

CornyKegs 728
Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum

Help Support Homebrew Talk - Beer, Wine, Mead, & Cider Brewing Discussion Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
CharlosCarlies

CharlosCarlies

Senior Member
HBT Supporter
Joined
Jan 17, 2009
Messages
709
Reaction score
8
Location
Conroe
I know there are a lot of threads about propane, etc, but I've spent the last hour searching for an answer and am only more confused now. :drunk:

We just built a new house and had the garage plumbed out w/ LP for the brewery. I had somebody build a single tier setup w/ burners that look like this:

bcbg10_cast_iron_propane_cast_burner.jpg


We tested out the system for the first time tonight and it took foreeeeever to heat up just 8g. Are these high pressure burners and would that explain the low output?

And if these burners aren't enough, how many BTUs would you suggest for 10-20g batches?

Many thanks in advance! :)
 
JuanMoore said:
I know that the jet burners run well on low pressure, typically using 0.5 psi regulators.
http://www.instawares.com/thunder-group-propane-jet.thu-irbr002l.0.7.htm?LID=GGLE&ci_src=14110944&ci_sku=THU-IRBR002L
Click to expand...

depends on the pressure regulator. if they are set to a max of .5 psi, it should take about 3 years to boil. i run 2 of mine on 10 psi regs, and 1 jet burner set to 20, and i do 11-12 gallon boils. it takes me about 20-30 minutes to get my 12 gallons of wort to a boil on that jet burner. check out the psi that head is set to. it might be very low
 
I have one of those burners with "just" a 10 PSI regulator (at least that's what it looks like it says). Brought about 7 gallons to boil in pretty short order. Didn't time it though, so maybe coming from boiling on a stove made it seem much quicker. :) Once at a boil, I had to throttle WAY back to avoid a boilover, and was able to maintain a boil with the burner set at barely a whisper. I plan to eventually move up to 15 gallon batches, and I'm wondering if this burner will be good enough, perhaps with a 20 or 30 PSI regulator?
 
perhaps with a 20 or 30 PSI regulator?
Click to expand...

See I think I'm still confused w/ all the different propane mumbo jumbo. :confused:

I have a large in ground tank and from what I understand, I'm pretty much stuck w/ whatever pressure is coming into the house. Or is this totally wrong? :)

I guess I could always use a portable tank, but that pretty much defeats the purpose of the "brewery" we planned out.
 
Ah, ok. I re-read your original post and I now understand your question about high-pressure. Yes, these burners are high-pressure. I don't know anything about household LP supplies, but I think you're looking at low-pressure, so to use your household supply you'll need low-pressure LP burners. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.
 
Thanks Chris, I figured that was the case. Guess I'm going to have to invest in some new burners.

Just when I thought I was about done buying parts too. Man this hobby can get expensive. :)
 
Hate to bump this, but I couldn't find exactly what I was looking for w/ the search function. Since I just bought a couple of brewhemoths (can't wait to get these!), I'm going to be doing 15g batches instead of 20g.

Would a 23 tip jet burner be enough to boil ~18 or so gallons? Should I get a 32 tip for the boil maybe and 23's for the HLT/Mash? What about using all Hurricanes?
 
IMHO the 10" hurricane/banjo burners would be the best fit for brewing, adjustability, and able to operate on either high or low pressure with appropriate gas fitting. Most people have found that the 24 & 32 jet burners are way to big for the 15 gallon size rigs and end up altering or selling them to some one else.
 
I second the Banjo/Hurricane burner, or even the smaller ones of similar design from agrisupply. A lot of wasted heat goes around the outside even with the Banjo. The 23+ jet tip burners send even more around the sides, as well as having breathing (oxygen starvation) issues at full blast. Guys have been converting them to 10 tip burners by removing/reconfiguring the tips.

When switching gas types/pressures, it is a big advantage being able to swap just the one orifice for Banjo style, versus every tip or the whole burner for jet tip burners. You should be able to drill out your current orifices in small steps to find out what size hole you need, or you can try to use an orifice reference table if you are a pen and paper type. You can also buy presized orifices, but you may not be able figure out what size you need without a lot trial an error.

I have 26g pots and have a hard time getting a quick boil also. I am going to try to using some aluminum tooling foil as a heat shroud/shield. This is the same stuff/principle that is used for backpacking stoves, and it significantly reduces boil times in that application.

How is that brewhemoth? Is it the fermenter or kettle you have?
 
A properly tuned Hurricane burner on 10 psi LP will send flames up the sides, the jet burner will give more flame but can not be turned down when boil is reached and still burn clean.
 
I hope you got the tri-clamp option for you Brewhemoth. You won't be sorry.

We do ~20g boils. That leaves ~6 inches freeboard in the kettle, which doesn't leave that much to play with during the steamy part (that's what she said). We shoot for 18+ to the fermenter to get 3 corny/ sixtels. I also have 1/4 barrels to keg in, so it's not an issue if we go over. My partner, (brew, not the other kind, not that there is anything wrong with that) is goal oriented, and loves to hit numbers. I am going to try to move to a more real-time approach, and adjust to what happens as we brew regarding efficiency, OG, hop additions, boil volumes, etc., so long as we end up with (at least) 18g to the fermenter, ~15 to the keg.

I have a couple, maybe more, of the jet tip burners, but haven't used them for brewing. They have a strange flame pattern, and the flame distance changes related to gas input, even more so than the Banjos, and they are bad enough. The 23+ tip burners send too much heat/flame around the sides when cranked, IMO and many others. Guys have been buying the 23+ tip burners and converting them to 9/10 tip burners because the 23 tip ones are 1/2 the price of the smaller diameter 9/10 tip ones (why, IDK).

I would either go with all standard Banjo/Hurricane, or try one of the smaller diameter, but same Banjo design, burners. These things are dirt cheap when bought as only the burner- agrisupply, restaurant supplies, etc. If you want to try something different, you could get a 3 ring burner. Some have individual control over each concentric ring, which is nice, and should have less flame wrap since there are more holes more spread out. There is nothing magic about Banjo style burners, though. They are all just a pipe with holes in them. Guys used to make homemade burners by drilling/cutting holes/slots in tubing or pipe. For a lightweight rafting stove, I am thinking of just drilling some holes in a thin wall stainless pipe, like how BBQ burners do.

I think we (those with 20+ gallon pots) are pushing the limit of direct flame heat transfer. I think adding a shield/shroud to get additional heating on the sides, as well as shielding loss from wind, etc., is going to help a lot. Our propane usage is out of hand, and even with a switch to nat gas, it will still be high, just cheaper with no refilling There must be a reason anything over ~15 gallons in the restaurant biz uses steam jackets.
 
Just to add a bit more info on the jet tip burners- They were originally designed for wok burners, I am pretty sure. Since buying mine, I have noticed that most restaurants and wok tables use the "duck bill" style burner tip over the jet tip. It gives a softer flame that must work better, but I am not sure. I plan on picking one up next time I see one. There is still the issue that each tip is/has its own orifice, so switching gas/pressures is not possible.
 
A properly tuned Hurricane burner on 10 psi LP
Click to expand...

This is the only thing that still concerns me though. I have a large in ground tank and the regulator doesn't seem to be adjustable or give any indication as to how much pressure is being output. I've heard these things only do .5-2 psi or so, but I haven't been able to confirm this.
 
CharlosCarlies said:
This is the only thing that still concerns me though. I have a large in ground tank and the regulator doesn't seem to be adjustable or give any indication as to how much pressure is being output. I've heard these things only do .5-2 psi or so, but I haven't been able to confirm this.
Click to expand...

The input pressure to the orifice really doesn't matter, you just need to tune the orifice size to the input pressure. A set of (very) small drill bits from harbor freight or some online/ebay place is all you need. In wire gauge sizes is best, at least I think that is how they spec orifices. You are just drilling brass, so cheapies will do. The bits are like wire themselves and very easy to break, so a drill press, or a steady hand, is best.
 
Ahhhh ok. I think I'm getting it now.

Also, I just checked Hurricane's website and it says:

The recomended pressure usage for this burner is 11" W.C.
Click to expand...

11" W.C. is roughly .5 PSI so it looks like I'm good to go. :)

Thanks again.
 
CharlosCarlies;2813454 Also said:
Part of the confusion is (mis)information from places like the manufacturers themselves.

It may not be that easy, but then again, it might. The way I interpret your statement is that you can just hook up straight hose to the burner port, of any diameter, since it will all be .5psi. An important part of orifice functionality is the drawing in of combustion air via the venturi effect.

You may/will still need an orifice, probably smaller than the 1/4? ID hose you will supply the burner orifice port with. That is where the "tuning" comes in.
Click to expand...
 
Thanks cwi. You've made it pretty clear I need to do a little more reading on the subject. :)

Assuming everything is dialed in correctly, are the Hurricanes going to be enough to boil 18g+ in a reasonable time frame?
 
It won't be that hard to dial the burner in, just time consuming and/or frustrating if you don't have a plan that works and is your style. I can only suggest 2 approaches for figuring out the correct orifice-

1. Get at least one high pressure (small) orifice and a set of bits in the general gauge range. You can then just drill it out one step at a time until you are happy, or maybe go too big. Once you know the size, you can either drill out the remaining ones, or order the correct size if the drilling part was a PITA. The holes are very small, and brass is very soft; but those drill bits are also small, and it could be tricky without a drill press.

2. Do a bunch of pen and paper engineering, and then order the correct orifice(s). You will probably need a few sizes for testing. Then you can send back the wrong sizes, and order more of the correct size. You could also drill out the small ones, but you might as well go with approach #1 if you have to buy the bits anyway.

Personally, I would do #1 since finding out all of the variables would be iffy, and you may still have to try several sizes anyway. Drilling one out gives immediate feedback, and less wading through misinformation.
 
Yes, a Hurricane will boil 18g. It takes longer than I like- ~45 min to get 20g to a boil with our pot which is the same as the largest MegaPot (25g?), and uses an assload of propane, but it will boil it. I am going to make a heat shroud/shield wrapped around the pot with an air gap of 3-4". It should help a great deal. The material I am going to try is called "tooling aluminum", and is just extra thick/tough aluminum foil. It should only cost $10 or so, which should pay for itself in a couple of boils. Not to mention just getting a boil in a decent amount of time. If you brew outside, any wind will add time to get to a boil. It will also kill a boil requiring constant flame adjustment.

Just remember, don't use a lid to speed up getting to a boil- DMS.
 
Hey guys. Finally got the Hurricane plumbed up and was attempting to tune the orifice today.

If yall don't mind, here are two short videos of me testing each (like 15-20 seconds a piece).





I tried 3/32" as well and couldn't really get a clean looking flame at all, but man it put out some heat! Which of these look better to yall? Does this look like it will boil 16-18g ok?

Thanks again!
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Is the air shutter wide open when the yellow tips go away, or closer to 50% open. It almost looks like the gas pressure is quite low if you are using a 5/64" opening and still have adjustment on the air shutter then the inlet pressure is definitely to low. That size opening works with NG pressure which is half of what low pressure propane pressure is.
As to the pilots, it would be better to come up from below the burner and in between the arms near the center. Depending on the flame angle from the pilot, the top of the pilot is usually at the top of the burner openings, this way the pilot flame crosses just above the burner openings to light them without burning against the cast iron of the burner. This also has the advantage of keeping the pilot plumbing out of the burner flame so it will work better and last longer.
What are you using for burner control?, solenoid valves, or ball valves, if solenoid valves then you need 0 pressure opening types, otherwise you might have a problem with the valves not opening with the low pressure gas supply and severely limiting the flame level.
 
Is the air shutter wide open when the yellow tips go away, or closer to 50% open.
Click to expand...

I'd say it's pretty close to 50% open but I'll have to check again tomorrow.

It does look like the pressure is really low, and I've been worried about that since the house was built. I think I'm going to try running one of the burners directly off the wall outlet to rule out any restrictions on the brew structure, but if that's all the pressure I can get are we pretty much stuck?

What are you using for burner control?, solenoid valves, or ball valves, if solenoid valves then you need 0 pressure opening types, otherwise you might have a problem with the valves not opening with the low pressure gas supply and severely limiting the flame level.
Click to expand...

It's a solenoid but I didn't build the stand and the valves aren't marked, so I really have no idea what they are. If the burner works ok coming directly from the wall do you think that's the most likely culprit?
 
Based on the flame size my guess is the solenoid valves are 5-100 psi rated ad the opening in the pilot portion of the solenoid is all that the gas can get through, normally that would be about 1/16" for ASCO's. Throw a ball valve in place of the solenoid and test the burner flame size. The other solenoid test is if you can blow through the solenoid when energized, then the low pressure gas can get through, otherwise it will only work with 5+ PSI pressure systems.
 
Well, I honestly couldn't really tell if there was a difference or not. Here's the 5/64" w/ the solenoid valve removed. I tried the 3/32" and just couldn't get rid of the yellow tips.

 
Last edited by a moderator:
Could you do a video of the burner with 3/32" gas jet, it looks like you are close with the 5/64" but if the air shutter is around 50% then the next larger should work. Light yellow tips on a few of the flame tips is about optimum air/fuel mix, all blue is too much air for maximum efficiency. The orange flames in the video are from the paint starting to burn off and bits of casting and grinding residue burning up in the flame.
 
May be chiming in a little late here but I use the banjo BG-14 and the small banjo BG-12's on high pressure LP and they work well for boiling 20+ gallons. It takes a significant amount of time to go from cold (45-50*F) to boil though, I'd say an hour or maybe a little more. But in reality, I'm raising cold water to strike temps (108-165*F depending on temperature steps) with a BG-14, then stepping temps up with the BG-12, then bringing it to a boil from 150ish with a BG-14.

cwi, I want to roll my brewstand outside and brew on nice days but my wind resistance is not too great. Keep us posted on how the aluminum flashing works and how it's arranged relative to the burners & kettles.
 
Weird. Tried the 3/32" again and it looks way better this time. :confused: Maybe it really was just the paint/etc burning off.



Should I try going even bigger? That flame was achieved at maybe 50-60% shutter.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
The 3/32" opening is probably enough for now, you could go up to 7/64" if you think you need a bit more fire for the HLT burner only. If you light the boil kettle burner when you have 2" of wort in the kettle, it should reach boiling at about the same time as last runnings hit kettle. The real load test is heating strike water from cold to 165-170 degrees.
The paint will burn off after about 1/2 hour of use, do not worry about the orange colored flames, it is just junk burning up in the flame.
 
It looks like your flame is well below the maximum capable for these burners. Then again, these burners put out way more heat than can be handled by the bottom of a 20" pot. Putting a pot over the burner (with some water in it of course) will give you a better idea of how big of a flame you need. The pot may also change the burner behavior some as well.

Until you get the damper close to 100% open, with a good flame, you haven't hit the orifice limit. So, if you still need a bigger flame, you can keep going. It is a weird interaction of orifice, venturi effect, pressure, gas type, etc., though. Your gas pressure is fixed fairly low, but hopefully has essentially unlimited flow as far as the burner is concerned. I think you may get limited at the high end by the low pressure not creating enough venturi effect. If you still need more heat, you can inject air into the damper to make up for the oxy deficit.

If you really want to see what one of these can do, hook up an adjustable HP reg and a BBQ tank to it.
 
Thanks again guys. I'll prob leave the 3/32" for the MLT and Boil Kettle for now, but I did order an extra orifice so I'll try going bigger just to see what happens (we are american after all so bigger obv = better right?).

If you really want to see what one of these can do, hook up an adjustable HP reg and a BBQ tank to it.
Click to expand...

I definitely plan on doing this at some point just for ****s and giggles. :)
 
So 7/64" is definitely too big. Even wide open I couldn't get the flame to clean up at all and flames were going 1/4 the way up the kettle. :)

I'm heating some strike water as we speak w/ the 3/32" and I had to throttle back the gas valve to keep the flame from coming up the side of the kettle. It also looks much more yellow/orange than it did w/o the kettle above it. Standard?
 
Do not worry about the flame for at least an hour of operation as the oils in the paint will be burning off and coloring the flame. When the pot is over the burner the air that flows around the burner and helps to finish gas combustion will be reduced a bit and you will probably need to tweak the air shutter open a bit more.
 

Similar threads

brewskitom
3V eBrewing Plumbing Advice
Replies
2
Views
757
rjbergen
R
Gytaryst
Looking for Small Batch Fermentation Suggestions and Ideas
Replies
14
Views
1K
rizziot
R
T
For Sale Awesome all grain home brewery for sale $1000 for EVERYTHING - Dallas,TX
Replies
0
Views
908
tealio
T
Chad_C
LP Propane Plumbing for Brew Stand
Replies
5
Views
3K
Surly
Surly
J
100% Malted Corn Lager, Double Decoction Mash
Replies
39
Views
6K
beren
beren

Latest posts

Back
Top