Lost in the world of electric brewing...again.

[Thundercougarfalconbird]

I'm slowly planning adding an element to my kettle to use as a HLT/BK
I want it to have some way to control the temperature for strike/sparge water, but also want to be able to crank it up for a boil. What kind of controller do I need?(I can't find a good guide for my needs. The electric Brewery is far to complex and a built in heat stick is too simple)

 

[LakewoodBrew]

Any PID with manual PWM mode would likely scratch your itch.

 

[Thundercougarfalconbird]

Wow that hurts my brain.
A quick search turned up a vast amount of info...But in electrician language I dont understand =P
I think I need a push towards a step-by-step
Or is my goal mere fruitless wishful thinking for someone who doesn't even own a soldering iron?

 

[LakewoodBrew]

Wow that hurts my brain.
A quick search turned up a vast amount of info...But in electrician language I dont understand =P
I think I need a push towards a step-by-step
Or is my goal mere fruitless wishful thinking for someone who doesn't even own a soldering iron?

i think your asking for electrocution if you're not really familiar with power electronics.

 

[Thundercougarfalconbird]

Meh, perhaps. I figure since I was able to build a heatstick without killing myself, How hard could it be to build that same heat stick but slap a probe in there somewhere that shuts it off and turns it on as it sees fit =P

 

[LakewoodBrew]

safe electric brewery requires:

Proper Electrical Wiring.
Proper Electronic Device Selection and Sizing.
Proper Physical Enclosure Design and Fabrication.

Failures in any area can create hazards such as;
Risk of Fire
Risk of Electrocution
Risk of Emergency Room Visit for minor version of any of the above.

 

[LakewoodBrew]

heat stick + temp probe + PID Controller + Solid State Relay is pretty much what you are looking for.

 

[LakewoodBrew]

PID will need to control a relay for current gain, since the controller itself won't be able to handle anywhere near the current of a 5500W 220VAC heater.

 

[Thundercougarfalconbird]

Dont suppose that comes as a package to avoid the above warnings anywhere huh?

 

[LakewoodBrew]

if you want to try your hand at it, i suggest a love controller

http://www.dwyer-inst.com/Product/Temperature/Temperature-ProcessControllers/Series32A

and a 40AMP 400V Solid State Relay with 3-18 VDC control voltage.

enclose everything water tight. make sure the SSR is mounted on a heat sink capable of keeping the temp below 50C with 5-10W dissipation.

 

[LakewoodBrew]

Dont suppose that comes as a package to avoid the above warnings anywhere huh?

not that i'm aware of. sorry.

 

[Thundercougarfalconbird]

Appreciated. Now that I have an idea what I need I'll belt out some research

 

[LakewoodBrew]

good luck. post your plans here and we will try to steer you in the right direction.

 

[rico567]

safe electric brewery requires:

Proper Electrical Wiring.
Proper Electronic Device Selection and Sizing.
Proper Physical Enclosure Design and Fabrication.

Failures in any area can create hazards such as;
Risk of Fire
Risk of Electrocution
Risk of Emergency Room Visit for minor version of any of the above.

This should be posted at the beginning of this thread as a sticky. I know -just- enough about electricity to know I want nothing to do with DIYing my own electric brewing setup, even though I'd like to go that way. I have done some household wiring, mostly 120VAC, and I've built some fairly straightforward DC microcircuits.
But to do the things that are being discussed in this thread (mostly the building of fairly involved and automated electric brewhouses) is just not something most people should attempt...or at least they should know what parts they should and shouldn't try to do. The average householder should be extremely careful about a few areas they may encounter: chain saws, weed mowers, and any electrical work.
Perhaps someday I'll get past it, but the expense of electric brewing is pretty high, whether DIY or buying something ready-made, like "kal"'s design is now. At this moment, if I were suddenly handed a check for $3000, I'd buy a Speidel Braumeister.

 

[Thundercougarfalconbird]

Electric is just so viable because I'm an apartment brewer so I can't really ever use gas.
There are no premade electric things that fit my needs, so in order to farther myself in the hobby I am forced to dabble and areas with lots of warning labels.

 

[aludwig]

Not aware of any pre-built package that suits your exact needs, but it really isn't all that hard to setup a safe and fairly simple controller like you are talking about. I'm sure in your searching you came across multiple references to Auber instruments. They have all the parts you need to setup something simple. I haven't personally used their PID controller, but many on this board have and most speak well of it. You could start with one of their project boxes and add the components mentioned in one of the above posts.

 

[jkarp]

I'm slowly planning adding an element to my kettle to use as a HLT/BK
I want it to have some way to control the temperature for strike/sparge water, but also want to be able to crank it up for a boil. What kind of controller do I need?(I can't find a good guide for my needs. The electric Brewery is far to complex and a built in heat stick is too simple)

Check out my CB20 build. It's got a PID driven kettle and isn't too tough to build. You can score all the electric bits between Home Depot and Auber.

 

[Thundercougarfalconbird]

Could I use this
http://morebeer.com/view_product/10958//The_Graham_Box_Control_Unit
or this
http://morebeer.com/view_product/16664//Ranco_Digital_Two-Stage_Temperature_Controller_-_Wired
to turn on an element in my MLT to maintain temps?

 

[jkarp]

Could I use this
http://morebeer.com/view_product/10958//The_Graham_Box_Control_Unit
or this
http://morebeer.com/view_product/16664//Ranco_Digital_Two-Stage_Temperature_Controller_-_Wired
to turn on an element in my MLT to maintain temps?

Yes, as long as the element draw is under 15A at 120V or 8A at 240V.

 

[Thundercougarfalconbird]

would that be viable?(tho granted less effective than herms/rims)
and finally would this element be acceptable?
http://www.amazon.com/dp/B000LE89H6/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20
I can't find the spec's for the amps, but I feel like this element would produce enough heat to maintain mash temps

 

[Walker]

Maybe I missed something, but the controllers thundercougarblahblahblah linked to are not going to be suitable for controlling a boil strength, which is one of the things he stated he wanted in the OP. You need pulse width modulation for that, and the Auber PIDs are probably the best way to go to get mash/sparge temp control as well as boil strength control in a single unit.

 

[jkarp]

Maybe I missed something, but the controllers thundercougarblahblahblah linked to are not going to be suitable for controlling a boil strength, which is one of the things he stated he wanted in the OP. You need pulse width modulation for that, and the Auber PIDs are probably the best way to go to get mash/sparge temp control as well as boil strength control in a single unit.

I was simply answering exactly what he asked:

Could I use this
http://morebeer.com/view_product/10958//The_Graham_Box_Control_Unit
or this
http://morebeer.com/view_product/16664//Ranco_Digital_Two-Stage_Temperature_Controller_-_Wired
to turn on an element in my MLT to maintain temps?

Of course, a PID solution is going to be a hell of a lot cheaper and more accurate, but what he's asked COULD be done. Many here have in fact used Rancos / Johnsons for HLT control (Pol's rig comes to mind.)

 

[Walker]

I was simply answering exactly what he asked:

Yup. I had missed that he was asking about those JUST for the MLT temp control.

 

[EarthBound]

thundercougarblahblahblah

That made me laugh. Out loud.

 

[Thundercougarfalconbird]

Yup. I had missed that he was asking about those JUST for the MLT temp control.

Yea I thinking I would use the element to aid in the boil if the kettle doubles as a BK, but it wouldn't be the sole heat supply

 

[Thundercougarfalconbird]

Sorry I keep reviving this thread. I just figure better to post here than to start a new thread every time I have a question.
I happened upon this,
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f51/rims-dummies-114997/
Is it really as simple as this? Could I remove the RIMS function but use the concept behind the diagram(PID, Thermocouple, Solid State Switch) and a larger element, install them in my kettle, and follow the diagram?
Like so,

The element and themocouple would of course be lower but I didnt wanna mess up the diagram.(also I'll be using a bigger element)

In the diagram I see the 115 VAC HOT and NEU. Im a little confused, are these just the appropriately sized black/red wires that end up in the outlet. And if so are the ends simply enclosed in a 3 prong plug?
Are the circles in the diagram places where the wires would be soldered together? And are the places where wires cross without the circle simply overlapping?
Also, I notice by the pump was a switch correct?I moved it, would the placement be appropriate/necessary?
Would it be best to buy a project box, install the switch, PID, and solid state switch.
Can I install more than one element into a single PID or do I need multiple?(if so I may hardwire a second element and only use it for boils)
Finally, I feel like there should be a ground somewhere, uh...where?

 

[wilserbrewer]

Do realize that w/ an electric HLT set up wired as above, in order to achieve automated temp control, you will likely need to either stir or recirculate w/ a pump. Merely placing a probe and a controlled element in a vessel will not give the intended results unless the liquor is moving and evenly heated.

 

[jkarp]

With all due respect Thundercougarfalconbird, I'm hesitant to reply as it's not clear you've even got a full grasp on brewing systems, let alone electric ones. Yes, that diagram is essentially accurate, but nobody needs a PID controlled kettle on its own. One could be used as part of a larger system, like my CB20, which I previously linked for you.

I'd suggest spending some time reading the very detailed electric system build threads here on HBT. I'm sure several are right below in the Similar Threads box. Once you've done some reading, you'll have a better handle on how the different brewing systems work (RIMS, HERMS, Brutus, no-sparge, etc.) and you'll better undersand the +/- of each as well as how folks have applied electricity in them.

 

[Thundercougarfalconbird]

Yea I understand the need to recirculate wort, I figure if I have an element in my kettle nothing stops me from stirring it without much heat loss. I've been reading pretty constantly for a few months now, including the CB20 thread,various RIMS/HERMS threads, and have been touching on brutus. I suppose these builds are sort of all or nothing, beyond my means and space.
I can't afford a pump nor a complete rig,nor is propane an option. But am unhappy with my coolers ability to maintain mash temps. My solution to this would be to introduce an element to maintain temps better than my cooler set up. This would essentially be just an automated MLT.(for the price of going to a round cooler with false bottom I could build the electric MLT, and the electric MLT just seems more accurate)
I suppose I'll get outta you guys hair then

 

[jkarp]

That background definitely helps. Might be best to start with what exactly is wrong with your cooler. I can hold a mash temp w/in 2 deg for 90 minutes in my 5 gallon cooler. No recirculation, no heat.

I can almost guarente introducing a heat source to a MLT without a mechanism to spread that heat through the mash won't be a satisfactory solution. If the PID temp sensor is up in the mash, the wort around the element will be boiling before the PID picks up the change. If the sensor is down near the element, the wort at the bottom will be at the desired temp but who knows what your mash will be doing. This is why we all invest in pumps. Believe me, if there were a better way, we'd be all over it as pumps are a PITA and expensive.