losing the lacto wars

[Owly055]

My current strategy is soaking one fermenter in a clorox solution for several days, after which I will expose it to intense UV for several days. The spigot has been boiled, and will be boiled briefly again before installing it. The last stage before using it will be starsan of course. The clorox will be rinsed heavily by simply hosing the fermenter out several times, then sticking the hose in the ferementer and leaving it in for a few hours running over in the yard. It's been soaking in bleach for 3 days now, but weather really is not conducive to finishing the job.

H.W.

 

[Owly055]

My second and larger fermenter was just drained today after two weeks. The brew 4Cs IPA was around 60 IBUs, and I monitored it daily for signs of sourness. My taste buds did not detect any sourness, though this fermenter was not aggressively sterilized. I did however pasteurize the brew after racking it out of the fermenter.
This suggests that the high IBU hop additions suppressed the infection as this brew was pitched on a yeast cake that I later discovered to be from an infected brew. Needless to say I will not be using harvested yeast again for awhile, and my procedure will be designed to prevent this kind of spread.

This fermenter will get the clorox and UV treatment also............


H.W.

 

[broadbill]

Are you fermenters made of plastic? UV will destroy them, especially if it is exposed for a long time and/or exposed to high intensity sources.

 

[Owly055]

Are you fermenters made of plastic? UV will destroy them, especially if it is exposed for a long time and/or exposed to high intensity sources.

They are plastic, and I am aware of the sensitivity of plastics to UV, but I'm not overly concerned.


H.W.

 

[gometz]

I would suggest replacing the plastic fermenters, no need to risk more ruined batches.

One thing stuck out to me, doesn't Star San work by lowering the pH? To me that would indicate that it wouldn't harm lactobacillus since lacto should be able to survive pretty low pH environments. Would using Iodophor possibly work?

 

[broadbill]

I would suggest replacing the plastic fermenters, no need to risk more ruined batches.

One thing stuck out to me, doesn't Star San work by lowering the pH? To me that would indicate that it wouldn't harm lactobacillus since lacto should be able to survive pretty low pH environments. Would using Iodophor possibly work?

StarSan also has a surfactant with antimicrobial properties. If Star San wasn't effective against lacto it wouldn't be a commercially viable product. Lacto is pretty much public enemy #1 in brewing.

 

[Owly055]

I would suggest replacing the plastic fermenters, no need to risk more ruined batches.

One thing stuck out to me, doesn't Star San work by lowering the pH? To me that would indicate that it wouldn't harm lactobacillus since lacto should be able to survive pretty low pH environments. Would using Iodophor possibly work?

I refuse to use glass, as the only option I'm aware of is the carboy, which I have a real dislike for, and is only available in large size. That leaves stainless steel. I have fermented in stainless steel stock pots before, but the lid is an issue, though not an insurmountable one. I'd love to have one of those cute 7 gallon Brewtech conicals, but I like to make smaller brew sizes. My 5 gallon Big Mouth Bubbler is really larger than I want, yielding 4 gallons ultimately....... and of course it's plastic. I like clear fermenters, which is why I've gone the way I have. Walmart ice tea dispensers have served me very well for most of my 120+ brews. I do expect to win in the end. At the moment, I have a very powerful UV light , one designed for industrial use, the kind you wear goggles with suspended inside my small fermenter, which was recently removed from the clorox bath. After about 10 hours of exposure, I'll drop it in Starsan for a day, then brew in it.

Your point about lacto and starsan is an interesting one. I don't think iodophor is ideal for plastics due to staining. It also has a very short working life... just a few hours. The clorox is very cheap, and I don't have a water issue as I am on a good well, so I can rinse literally for hours at insignificant cost.

H.W.

 

[Owly055]

StarSan also has a surfactant with antimicrobial properties. If Star San wasn't effective against lacto it wouldn't be a commercially viable product. Lacto is pretty much public enemy #1 in brewing.

My understanding was that the surfactant was regarded as inert and served only to create suds and coat surfaces. That said, your point about Starsan having to be able to kill lacto is a good and valid one.

H.W.

 

[IslandLizard]

My understanding was that the surfactant was regarded as inert and served only to create suds and coat surfaces. That said, your point about Starsan having to be able to kill lacto is a good and valid one.

H.W.

Aside for the beneficial wetting and foaming action, the surfactant's sanitizing job is accomplished by lowering surface tension, which ruptures the cell walls of the microorganisms and kills them. The mechanism may be, by making the cell walls permeable they can soak up water through osmosis, then they explode. The acid also prevents growth of most molds and bacteria.

 

[Owly055]

Aside for the beneficial wetting and foaming action, the surfactant's sanitizing job is accomplished by lowering surface tension, which ruptures the cell walls of the microorganisms and kills them. The mechanism may be, by making the cell walls permeable they can soak up water through osmosis, then they explode. The acid also prevents growth of most molds and bacteria.

Interesting........ This is exactly the opposite of the mechanism whereby honey or salt are anti bacterial. This is an osmosis effect also, with the strong solution outside the cell walls causes osmosis, dehydrating the cells.


H.W.

 

[Jawbox0]

My thought, rule out the fermenters. Pick up a 5 gallon bucket and lid from any home improvement store, or Walmart, and sanitize. Don't add a spigot. Do your normal no-boil procedure, and dump it in hot, the HDPE can do 140-160 easy. Cool it down, use a dry yeast, and ferment.

At this point, if you infect, it's your boil process, fermentation space, or your serving procedure. Otherwise you *know* it's the fermenters and can do that battle.

If you choose not to do that, eliminate variables as much as possible. Pitch dry yeast, use new vinyl tubing, etc.

 

[BGBC]

My thought, rule out the fermenters. Pick up a 5 gallon bucket and lid from any home improvement store, or Walmart, and sanitize. Don't add a spigot. Do your normal no-boil procedure, and dump it in hot, the HDPE can do 140-160 easy. Cool it down, use a dry yeast, and ferment.

At this point, if you infect, it's your boil process, fermentation space, or your serving procedure. Otherwise you *know* it's the fermenters and can do that battle.

If you choose not to do that, eliminate variables as much as possible. Pitch dry yeast, use new vinyl tubing, etc.

Would not recommend doing no chill in a non food grade bucket, like the homer buckets

 

[Jawbox0]

Would not recommend doing no chill in a non food grade bucket, like the homer buckets

Most also sell food grade buckets.

 

[stpug]

Aside for the beneficial wetting and foaming action, the surfactant's sanitizing job is accomplished by lowering surface tension, which ruptures the cell walls of the microorganisms and kills them. The mechanism may be, by making the cell walls permeable they can soak up water through osmosis, then they explode. The acid also prevents growth of most molds and bacteria.

I've read similar by S. cerevisiae (on hiatus) over on the AHA forum. Essentially, the surfactant (Dodecylbenzenesulfonic acid) is the sanitizing agent of Star San, and the lowered pH of the solution (provided by phosphoric acid) simply prevents multiplying of yeast and bacteria. As he further describes, the surfactant is effective against anionic or negatively-charged cells only (bacteria); not effective against ionic or positively-charged cells (molds, yeast). He describes it's mode of action as simply being able to permeate the bacteria's cell walls and disrupting (wreaking havoc) cellular function - that is, of course, as long as the star san can contact the bacteria (biofilms come into play here). In addition, I've read elsewhere, that star san does not have a highly effective cleaning mechanism and cannot dissolve biofilms which makes it a poor "cleaner"; whereas, bleach does have a high cleaning mechanism and CAN dissolve biofilms making it an excellent cleaner (and sanitizer too). In comparison, iodophor is effective against both anionic and ionic organisms making it a more robust sanitizer but still a poor cleaner. Peracetic acid (of which a lightweight version can be easily homemade) is both an excellent sanitizer and cleaner, as well.

So, as I currently understand it, star san is effective against most bacteria as long as the bacteria is not protected by a biofilm. All other possible beer spoilage organisms are not affected by star san - simply restrained until pH increases.

As for me, while I find the information extremely valuable, I still use star san as my primary sanitizer for most purposes. When it comes to cleaning sour-beer contaminated equipment I use boiling bath of oxyclean solution, followed by star san. Probably better would be to quarterly (or semi-annually) put my equipment through a bleach and/or iodophor bath to provide more robust protection against long-term, slow-growth contamination.

None of this is verbatim; it's all para-phrased and any mistakes on the regurgitation of information are my fault.

Cheers!

Edit: To test the theory of star san being ineffective against yeast (yes, yeast); simply harvest a half-jar of some yeast from your next batch and fill the other half with star san. Shake it up and give it some time in the fridge. On your next brewday, pour a quart/gallon of your freshly chilled wort into a test fermenter and then add your acid-washed yeast (i.e. star san yeast) and watch it ferment away.

 

[m00ps]

Lacto is pretty much public enemy #1 in brewing.

 

[broadbill]

er...uh....well....Lacto is Public Enemy #1 if you don't want it there. Another story if you want it in there.

My point was StarSan wouldn't be a commercially viable product if it wasn't effective on Lacto.

 

[gometz]

er...uh....well....Lacto is Public Enemy #1 if you don't want it there. Another story if you want it in there.

My point was StarSan wouldn't be a commercially viable product if it wasn't effective on Lacto.

Good point. Guess I didn't think about it enough.

 

[Owly055]

I seem to have whipped the problem using several days of bleach soak followed by about 8 hours of intense UV exposure...... keeping my fingers crossed.

H.W.

 

[Mainer]

I'm currently losing the lacto war from the other side. I pitched a Berliner Weisse and I can't get the lacto to do anything. It's just a crappy wheat beer.

 

[brewfun]

Normal pasteurization temps for milk are 160 for a very brief time period.

162 for 15 seconds to be precise. And milk then gains a shelf life of two weeks. Just a few days, if left at room temperature.

Lactobacillis is killed well below that temp.

Not if it spores, as genus of Bacillus do. In spore form, bacillus are highly resistant to harsh environments, including cleaners and sanitizers. Commercially, caustic cleaners for bacillus sensitive environments must be >12 pH and acid sanitizers <4.2 pH. Temperatures of >160F for >15 min are co-recommended. If you're not cleaning in this range, then its less effective than you now seem to need.

Since it is a recent phenomenon, I'd suggest that you are suppressing contaminants but not eliminating them in your no-boil method. You might also be creating selective conditions for souring organisms that will present as more rapid and obvious souring over time.