Looking to get back into extract brewing for the time being

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Sansnom

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Hello all,


I had to stop brewing for personal reasons a while back and I am looking to get back into it, but my current situation (living area) isn't really workable with the 3 vessel all grain method I was accustomed to. Basically I don't really have anywhere to put a propane burner and such to make it work. This leaves me with a regular stove top to do either 3 gallon all grain batches or potentially some extract batches. Because a 3 gallon all grain batch still takes most of the time needed to make a regular sized batch and only nets you 3 gallons, I was leaning towards making some extract brews.

Like most people, I started with extract. I actually started with the pre-hopped tins and that never... worked out so well, but anyway.

I did make the occasional extract batch with my old gear, I would do a full volume boil with all the extract in at the start, I never thought much of it. The beer was actually pretty decent, but I did notice that my extract brews were darker and they did have a bit of a caramel taste to them, no matter how fresh or light the extract was.

So, now that I'm working with a burner that can't boil the full volume needed to make a 5 gallon batch, I'm faced with boiling a smaller amount and topping up in the fermenter. From my research, I have found a lot of people talking about "late extract additions", where you add a portion of it at the end to keep the gravity of the boil lower to prevent excess darkening and to reduce any nasty flavours that comes with it. So, this has me thinking and I have a few questions that I haven't been able to answer through searching goolge, so I figured I would ask you folks:

When doing a partial boil, will adding 50% of the extract at the start and the other 50% towards the end of the boil result in a comparable brew to one done with a full volume boil?
Will adding less than 50% at the start and adding even more at the end, say 25% at the start and 75% at the end show even more improvement?

This also begs the question, what about boil length? If you were to assume that extract has already been boiled once, if you choose to do a full boil, whether it's with late addition or not, that's 60 minutes + what ever length of time it was boiled by the producer of the extract. That's a lot of boiling! So, what about reducing the boil time? Does shortening the boil time of an extract batch result in any improvement? What if you shortened it to 30 minutes?


I'm just trying to figure out the best way to make extract beer with what I currently have. Any advice would be appreciated.
 
I'm thinking boil length here merely is for best utilisation of your hops. Boiling the extract isn't really necessary, consider the pre hopped kits you can buy... no boil whatsoever other than a few liters to get the liquid dissolved.
 
Mini mash. I made a mash tun out of a 2 gallon cooler that has worked for up to 5 pounds of grain. Typically the grain bill for a mini mash is 2-4 pounds. I'll use this to make about a 2.5 gallon, hour boil with hop additions. That gets added to the bucket with all the extract, mix, top off with chilled tap water to 5.25 gallons and pitch.
 
eta: rather than a single response, I'll post a number of more focused ideas.

This leaves me with a regular stove top to do either 3 gallon all grain batches or potentially some extract batches.

Partial boils (half the ingredients / half the water) with late additions (half the DME / half the water) is a common approach to "stove top" brewing.

All all-extract approach can is described well in How to Brew, 4e.

A partial mash approach can be found in Homebrew Talk topics back in 2008 (Easy Partial Mash Brewing (with pics)).

Water "chemistry" with a partial mash doesn't appear to be covered by spreadsheets, but it's not complicated if using RO/distilled water.
  • Setup good mash conditions by using the mash related information at Water Chemistry – How to Build Your Water – Bertus Brewery, "Brewing Water Chemistry" sticky here at Homebrew Talk, or the books Brewing Better Beer & Modern Homebrew Recipes.
  • The DME will provide minerals that many/most/(all?) water spreadsheets won't understand, so maybe start with 1/2 or 1/3 or the 'flavor' salt additions then 'dial it in' by experimenting with minerals 'in the glass' on the first batch.
 
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@dmtaylor 's "Excellent Extract Tips ..." (from a early 2021 post)

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I've read that 90% of the bittering from the hops occurs in the first 30 minutes and I've been pretty satisfied with the bitterness I get from that. I'm not a commercial brewer who has an accountant watching to see that I get the best return on my investment. If my beer wasn't satisfactory to me, I could add another 10% hops to gain the bittering.

Since the longer you boil extract the darker it gets, that 30 minute boil should help.
 
When doing a partial boil, will adding 50% of the extract at the start and the other 50% towards the end of the boil result in a comparable brew to one done with a full volume boil?

At it's extreme, one can boil hops either a very low OG wort or in water, then add the rest of the extract at the end of the boil.
 
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When I did extract, I did get better results, not just color, but overall flavor etc, when I went to split additions - roughly half at the beginning, half around 20 minutes left - that one wasn't as precise.
|As far as getting back into the game, there's nothing wrong with smaller batches, depending on how many people you have assisting in the consumption.
 
I haven't actually done what I'm about to talk about, but I intend to try it on my next batch. Since adding DME to boiling wort creates a messy cloud and since I needn't actually boil the DME, I'm going to dissolve a late addition in a gallon of cold water I add to the 1 1/2 gallon boil after the boil is poured into my fermenter. (I add the rest of the water downstairs in the basement-it's a matter of my age and basement stairs.)
 
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D. B., I do extracts with specialty grains. I steep the grains in 2 gallons of water 15 to 20 minutes and remove, bring to boil, then do hops additions for desired times. I then remove from heat and add extracts. Cool a little, add chilled water to get to pitch temp and volume. This works for me and makes tasty beers.
 
Thanks, D. Actually what I am trying to avoid is adding dry malt extract to hot liquid as it creates a cloud of sticky dust. So I'm gong to try adding it already dissolved in cold water. But you encourage me. :mug:
 
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Wow, thanks for all the replies!


I hadn't thought of a mini mash, I'm definitely going to give that a try when life is a little less busy! I'm going to give a full extract batch a try first, I'm going to do a 30 minute boil and do late addition and see how it goes. Thanks again for the advice guys!
 
@Sansnom Most anything I would normally add has already been covered by the many excellent suggestions above.

There are a few things I suggest trying If you are short on time or just want to build up a pipeline quickly.

1. I highly suggest 20 minute partial extract/half volume boils. You will need to adjust your hops to account for the shortened boil.

2. If working with DME; take some of the initial boil volume around 100f and add half your DME to this, stir then add it back to the boil. If helps keep DME from sticking to the bag or the kettle bottom.

3. Have pre-chilled, nearly frozen water ready for post boil to help chill and add volume. Add your remaining DME prior to chilling or enjoy chewing malt clumps.

4. Have fun bro, your making beer!
 
Since adding DME to boiling wort creates a messy cloud [...], I'm going to dissolve it in a gallon of cold water
In my "hop sampler" - style batches (1 gal water, 1 lb DME), I've added DME just before 'flame-on' using an electric wire whisk. It works.

With these batches, watching the wort while it heats was interesting. With a "hop sampler" batch, add the DME at 'flame-on', add the hops at the start of the boil. For some brands, at around 150-180F, I will see what looks like "hot break". For other brands, nothing. This is one of a number of things that cause me to treat brands of DME differently - and to be cautious about some "forum wisdom" attributted to 'extract'.

For those choosing to add the DME at the start of the boil, Briess (at their homebrewing site) also talks about making a slurry in a side pot and adding the slurry to the boiling water/wort (see the home brew FAQs section on the main page).

The site has a fresh look, (looks like Munich DME is no longer listed), and is worth a fresh look for anyone actively brewing with extracts.
 
Briess (at their homebrewing site) also talks about making a slurry in a side pot and adding the slurry to the boiling water/wort (see the home brew FAQs section on the main page).
And yet they're still adding it to the boil. I am quite used to dissolving DME in unheated water, except I've always done it in my brew pot. (It dissolves quite nicely while I'm steeping grains.) What I am going to try is just adding dissolved dme after the boil as part of the initial cool down, as opposed to a regular late addition. Since a less concentrated wort is more efficient in hop utilization, I may try some 30 minute boils in the future as @RM-MN suggested.
 
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DME can be put in the cool wort, at the time of pitching. It will dissolve perfectly. It is when the wort is boiling that it clumps and makes the homebrewer frustrated.

Getting half of the density with DME added in the fermenter would work, just as if one were adding sugar. DME will not sit on the bottom, it will be dissolved.

The problem with this technique is the recalculation of hopping because one has to hop for the entire volume and hop extraction is not linear for what I know. But maybe one can hop with twice the hops at the same density of the recipe which one is executing (i.e. if you add 50% of the volume in the fermenter, you also add 50% of the DME to the fermenter, and you boil half the DME and half the water, getting the same density and the same hop extraction).

Hop pellets give almost 100% of their bitterness in 30 minutes boiling, which means that at 7 or 8 minutes 50% of the bitterness is released. That means that, if you are executing a beer for which "blondness" is important, you can actually boil for 7 minutes with 2x the pellets.

The result will be half DME which wasn't boiled at all and half the DME which was boiled for only 7 minutes, giving an average boiling of 3,5 minutes.

I never executed this kind of recipe but I know this as a theoretical possibility.
 
If I'm following what you wrote, How to Brew, 4e covers how to handle hop additions / IBUs when "stove top" brewing (half the water/extract at start of boil & half at the end of the boil).

I am looking at it now. There is an interesting nomograph at pag. 65 of the 2006 edition (I don't know if it's the 4th edition).

The problem I see is how the hop quantity influences the hop extraction. Just like a higher gravity of the wort makes the extraction more slow and difficult, so it might be that a higher quantity of hop "saturates" the wort and makes the extraction more difficult. I don't see this really considered in Palmer, although it is probably not a concern if I am interpreting right this snippet:

The utilization is influenced by the vigor of the boil, the total gravity of the boil, the time of the boil, and several other minor factors.

The "saturation" of bittering substances in the wort should at most be comprised among the "other minor factors", and if that is correct, doubling the bitterness should work well in bittering half the volume and then adding an equal volume of unbittered wort (water and DME) after boiling (caeteris paribus).
 
If you are just returning to homberewing and haven't been following along in the last few years, a lot has changed. I'm not sure if you still have all your old equipment, in which case you might just stick with 3 vessel brewing when you are able again.

The concept of BIAB has really taken off. I started that way before migrating to 3 vessel. There are tons of 110v electric units that can work in a small living space. You might want to check some of them out and see if that is a good fit for you when you are interested in all grain again.
 
Actually Palmers probably covers what I was saying in this snippet:

To increase your utilization, and thereby use less hops, you can boil your hops in a lower gravity wort using (for example) half of the total malt extract in the recipe. The other half of the extract can be added at the end of the boil to pasteurize it before cooling the wort and diluting it to the recipe gravity in the fermenter.

I presume he is talking about bittering for the entire batch in half the volume, although at first glance he seems to be talking about lowering the malt in an equal volume to favour extraction.
 
There is an interesting nomograph at pag. 65 of the 2006 edition
It might be interesting to validate the nomograph against the IBU data in BBR's November 1, 2018 - IBUs vs Wort Gravity and Hop Stand Temps podcast.

The data is useful by itself - as it seems to show that pellet hops "get to work" quickly - which is different than the classic Tinseth IBU formula (which was based on whole hops). FWIW, I have not idea how well recipe software takes this into account.
 
The data is useful by itself - as it seems to show that pellet hops "get to work" quickly - which is different than the classic Tinseth IBU formula (which was based on whole hops). FWIW, I have not idea how well recipe software takes this into account.

That was discussed recently in another thread.
Basically, cones give 90% of their bitterness in 60', and 100% in 90'.
Pellets give 90% of their bitterness in 30' or so, what is "one hour" for cones is "half an hour" for pellets.

Gordon Strong, Brew Better Beer, gives a table at page 66 in which he details the equivalent extraction times for cones and pellets.

I think Tinseth equations are all based on cones and in general IBU and AA measures etc. are all based on cones.

For pellets, half the time gives the same extraction, until all that is extractable is extracted.

For partial extraction, half cone time is roughly the pellet time.

Considering that 1/4 of the time normally gives 1/2 of the bitterness, in rough terms 15 minutes of cones give 50% of bitterness than 60' of cones, and 7,5 minutes of pellets give 50% of 30 minutes of pellets which in turn equates 60' of cones.

That said, I am too humble a homebrewer to waste time with bitterness calculations: I execute recipes and will in case adjust them.

Those equivalences are useful if one wants to adopt a recipe which considers cones and only has pellets on hand, etc.

In the case of the OP, where reducing boiling time is important because extracts are already boiled once, the use of pellets is useful and maybe doubling the hop and halving the boiling time might be beneficial to the taste, albeit not to the purse.
 
Hello all,


I had to stop brewing for personal reasons a while back and I am looking to get back into it, but my current situation (living area) isn't really workable with the 3 vessel all grain method I was accustomed to. Basically I don't really have anywhere to put a propane burner and such to make it work. This leaves me with a regular stove top to do either 3 gallon all grain batches or potentially some extract batches. Because a 3 gallon all grain batch still takes most of the time needed to make a regular sized batch and only nets you 3 gallons, I was leaning towards making some extract brews.

Like most people, I started with extract. I actually started with the pre-hopped tins and that never... worked out so well, but anyway.

I did make the occasional extract batch with my old gear, I would do a full volume boil with all the extract in at the start, I never thought much of it. The beer was actually pretty decent, but I did notice that my extract brews were darker and they did have a bit of a caramel taste to them, no matter how fresh or light the extract was.

So, now that I'm working with a burner that can't boil the full volume needed to make a 5 gallon batch, I'm faced with boiling a smaller amount and topping up in the fermenter. From my research, I have found a lot of people talking about "late extract additions", where you add a portion of it at the end to keep the gravity of the boil lower to prevent excess darkening and to reduce any nasty flavours that comes with it. So, this has me thinking and I have a few questions that I haven't been able to answer through searching goolge, so I figured I would ask you folks:

When doing a partial boil, will adding 50% of the extract at the start and the other 50% towards the end of the boil result in a comparable brew to one done with a full volume boil?
Will adding less than 50% at the start and adding even more at the end, say 25% at the start and 75% at the end show even more improvement?

This also begs the question, what about boil length? If you were to assume that extract has already been boiled once, if you choose to do a full boil, whether it's with late addition or not, that's 60 minutes + what ever length of time it was boiled by the producer of the extract. That's a lot of boiling! So, what about reducing the boil time? Does shortening the boil time of an extract batch result in any improvement? What if you shortened it to 30 minutes?


I'm just trying to figure out the best way to make extract beer with what I currently have. Any advice would be appreciated.

All that is accomplished by boiling malt extract is isomerizing hop Alpha Acids. How much extract to add when is all about hop utilization. The idea is for the wort density of your partial boil to be the same as it would be if you were doing a full boil. Here's the easiest way to do a late extract addition:

  1. Fill your kettle with 3 gallons of water
  2. Time how long it takes to boil off 0.5 gallons to get to a total volume of 2.5 gallons.
  3. Adjust your starting volume for your extract batches based on your boil-off rate. On my old electric stove it was 0.5 gallons per hour. I would start with three gallons and boil off to get down to 2.5 gallons.
  4. Add half of your extract before the boil, and the other half at flameout.
  5. Stir for 15 minutes for extract to dissolve and sterilize.
By boiling your hops in half of your batch volume with half of the extract, the density of the wort is going to be the same as the density of the full batch. I made a ton of extract and BIAB partial-mash brews with this way.
 
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