Looking for these caps....

[Dave Sarber]

Bought some Arizona microbrewery beer today (Oak Creek Brewery, Sedona, Az), and I really like their caps. Did a quick online search for this cap, no joy. Sent the brewery an email, with no reply yet. Anybody know of a source for these?

 

[day_trippr]

Taking a glance at their web site I expect the caps were made to their design specification - that's not a generic cap.
And if there's a trademark involved they have to protect it, so I doubt you'll find it from any legit supplier...

Cheers!

 

[bobeer]

agreeing with day_tripper here... I'm sure that's a copyrighted design. Plus, if you were to enter any beers with a cap like that into a bjcp competition (if that's your thing) I think it would be disqualified.

There's lots of caps on amazon and other places online. Plus there's a site where you can create your own design. https://www.grogtag.com/bottle-caps

 

[Dave Sarber]

Can that cap be copyrighted? It's the central element in the Arizona State flag, so has been public domain since about 1912?
Also, I've never entered a beer in competition (yet), are there guidelines for the caps?

 

[CodeSection]

Can that cap be copyrighted? It's the central element in the Arizona State flag, so has been public domain since about 1912?
Also, I've never entered a beer in competition (yet), are there guidelines for the caps?

Correct, the Arizona flag is in the public domain. It cannot be copyrighted or trademarked. The cap above is the Arizona flag that has been shifted over so that it is not centered on the cap. It is not a "design" issue.

 

[day_trippr]

[shrug] Pretty much anything can be trademarked, the question is whether the trademark is defendable.
And that test only comes if someone challenges the trademark...

Cheers!

 

[CodeSection]

[shrug] Pretty much anything can be trademarked, the question is whether the trademark is defendable.
And that test only comes if someone challenges the trademark...

Cheers!

Nope, not federal or state flags....or their images.

 

[NTexBrewer]

I’ve used grogtag.com to make custom caps and they look great. I’m guessing it should be easy to make custom caps similar to what you saw.

Most beer competitions require/want silver caps. So if you bottle a beer with your custom Arizona caps just cap 3 to 6 bottles with silver caps so you have some to enter into competitions.

 

[Dave Sarber]

I normally use the silver caps with a black sharpie to put a batch number on it. Or black caps/silver sharpie. I think the Az flag caps would be nice on bottles for gifting.

 

[CodeSection]

...I think the Az flag caps would be nice on bottles for gifting.

They would be nice. I googled and found another website that prints bottle caps (bottlemark.com). I was able to upload the AZ flag and position it anyway I wanted. Looked nice.

Now the downside. The cost per cap was $0.17. Even when I tried raising the production up from 60 to 60,000 caps, the cost remained at $0.17. Perhaps their website could not handle that larger quantity and you have to call in for a quote.

Never-the-less, for me it is far cheaper to use different color caps I can buy either online or from my LHBS that cost $0.016 - $0.017 each. I rather take the cost difference and apply that to the cost of a nice label.

Maybe you will find better pricing....

 

[Dave Sarber]

Yup, that's pretty expensive! Might be worth it for a very special brew, but I'll keep looking for a better price.

Meanwhile, I'm on my second six pack of this beer, and I'm saving all the caps. Removing the caps with the "edge of table" method to eradicate bottle opener dimples.

I guess it's kind of lame to buy beer just for the caps, but I also get bottles. In my defense, it is fairly tasty beer!

 

[Dave Sarber]

 

[AJinJacksonville]

A bit off topic...but Oak Creek Canyon is an absolutely amazing place to visit. Not sure that the brewery was there the last time my wife and I went...but it's making me 1) want to go back to Oak Creek Canyon and 2) drink a brown ale right now...

 

[day_trippr]

Nope, not federal or state flags....or their images.

Right. Except that cap is not an obvious copy of any federal or state flag, so...

Cheers!

 

[CodeSection]

Right. Except that cap is not an obvious copy of any federal or state flag, so...

Cheers!

Lol. Give it up. You are not able to get a trademark or copyright on an official image of a federal or state flag on a cap or anything else. It doesn't matter what the image is printed on. Please provide a link that shows a trademark or copyright exists on such an image to support your position....there is none.

 

[day_trippr]

Calm thyself downeth, son. There's no point in your panties bunching over this.

I'm just saying that the cap design is not a copy of an actual flag, and likely could be protected from unauthorized exploitation.
I have no idea if the brewery actually maintains a trademark or active copyright on it or not. Do you?

Cheers!

 

[Dave Sarber]

Here is the Az State flag. Have had no response from the brewery at this point.

 

[CodeSection]

Calm thyself downeth, son. There's no point in your panties bunching over this.

I'm just saying that the cap design is not a copy of an actual flag, and likely could be protected from unauthorized exploitation.
I have no idea if the brewery actually maintains a trademark or active copyright on it or not. Do you?

Cheers!

You see that is where you are wrong. The image on the cap IS an official image of the Arizona flag that is positioned on the bottle cap. It doesn't matter that the image is not centered.

You spreading bad info helps no one here. Again, you cannot trademark or copyright a federal or state flag image, regardless what is it printed on or how it is positioned on something. Again, please provide a link showing a trademark or copyright was issued for a federal or state flag image on a bottle cap, t-shirt or anything. There is none.

Lastly, I'm not upset and don't why you would think so. It seems you keep trying to save face by repeating yourself while I'm trying to set the record straight and educate. I only ask that you provide a link that supports your inaccurate posts that shows a trademark or copyright that has been issued for a federal or state flag image. Rather than reposting wrong info, just post the link I've been asking for. It's as easy as that.

 

[CodeSection]

Here's another image of the Arizona flag...

 

[Dave Sarber]

^^^Color is better in your image. I'm not trying to start a fight, just wondering about it being possible to copyright that image.

I do notice a subtle difference between the image I posted and the image you posted, look at the top point of the star, in the flag you posted the top point is centered in the red stripe. While on the image I posted, the point is on the edge between 2 stripes?

Another thing, the image I posted says it is the "official Arizona State flag". I counted the stripes of the pic I posted, and it is not correct. There are supposed to be 13 stripes, and mine has 14, the right hand stripe is yellow, and incorrect. Probably made in China.

 

[CodeSection]

^^^Color is better in your image. I'm not trying to start a fight, just wondering about it being possible to copyright that image.

I do notice a subtle difference between the image I posted and the image you posted, look at the top point of the star, in the flag you posted the top point is centered in the red stripe. While on the image I posted, the point is on the edge between 2 stripes?

Another thing, the image I posted says it is the "official Arizona State flag". I counted the stripes of the pic I posted, and it is not correct. There are supposed to be 13 stripes, and mine has 14, the right hand stripe is yellow, and incorrect.

As you ended up pointing out, your flag image that you posted is not that of an official Arizona flag. As you will see, the Arizona flag image I posted is the official flag as can be seen when googled and even at az.gov. Just to be clear, the image on the bottle cap IS the official image of the Arizona state flag.

 

[Dave Sarber]

Now for differences between the flag and the cap...
The l/h and r/h points of the star on the cap are centered in the yellow stripes, while on the flag, the points end at the border between the red and yellow stripes. Is this enough difference to make it copyrightable (is that a word)?

 

[CodeSection]

Now for differences between the flag and the cap...
The l/h and r/h points of the star on the cap are centered in the yellow stripes, while on the flag, the points end at the border between the red and yellow stripes. Is this enough difference to make it copyrightable (is that a word)?

Not in the least. Slight printing differences are just that. Anyone trying to take that position will be turned down on any application for any trademark or copyright protection. Just won't happen and hasn't happened.

I'm sure there are some here (maybe only one) that will say "see, there is a design difference." They will be wrong. But, in the end if someone wants to waste time and money to try to trademark or copyright an official federal or state flag, so be it. It is their time and their money to spend. Their applications will be rejected. At least they will give the people at the offices a good laugh and story to tell.

 

[Dave Sarber]

Well, I'm going to go ahead and get some of those caps made, using the correct image that you posted. If Oak Creek tries to sue me, I will point out that my image is correct and theirs isn't. I won't even try to get it copyrighted!

 

[CodeSection]

Well, I'm going to go ahead and get some of those caps made, using the correct image that you posted. If Oak Creek tries to sue me, I will point out that my image is correct and theirs isn't. I won't even try to get it copyrighted!

There is no basis for anyone to sue....none. Any such action would be easily tossed. Besides, they know they have no trademark or copyright. Below are some links and info you may find interesting. If you search, you will only find they trademarked their name. I even searched for the member's names.....nothing. BTW, you could not get it trademarked or copyrighted either...

Oak Crek Brewing Co, LLC

https://apps.azsos.gov/apps/tntp/se.html

https://ecorp.azcc.gov/BusinessSearch/BusinessInfo?entityNumber=L02506383

I doubt they would have tried get it copyrighted. Had they, they would have been rejected. Plus, the application fee is high. If you want to pay the search fees, the link below will take you to the page you need. Go to the lower right corner.

https://www.copyright.gov/rrc/

 

[mongoose33]

Calm thyself downeth, son. There's no point in your panties bunching over this.

I'm just saying that the cap design is not a copy of an actual flag, and likely could be protected from unauthorized exploitation.
I have no idea if the brewery actually maintains a trademark or active copyright on it or not. Do you?

Cheers!

I think OP should move out of Arizona and that would settle this dispute pronto!

 

[day_trippr]

Now now. I don't have a problem being incorrect wrt what defines a non-protectable image. While I've suspected one could get away with a lot when it comes to such matters that itself could be off base. My actual limited IP experience is with utility patents, a whole different arena...

Cheers!

 

[Dave Sarber]

I think OP should move out of Arizona and that would settle this dispute pronto!

Nope, that just ain't happenin!

 

[CodeSection]

Now now. I don't have a problem being incorrect wrt what defines a non-protectable image. While I've suspected one could get away with a lot when it comes to such matters that itself could be off base. My actual limited IP experience is with utility patents, a whole different arena...

Cheers!

Nice!

Moving off topic, a while back I started a thread and asked if it was possible to cold crash or use gelatin when using priming sugar and bottling. I was told at my LHBS not to try it as there would not be enough yeast left for priming.

You may not remember posting to my thread, but you said not to worry and that it may take another week to prime. So, I ended up buying a chiller and used it the first time alittle more than two weeks ago. I had intended to cold crash at 36F for two days. However, life and work got in the way and I ended up cold crashing for a week.

I'm concerned that there may not be enough yeast to properly prime. What are your thoughts? What are your suggestions on the length of cold crashing times? Thanks.

 

[day_trippr]

Quite the segue

I can't recall crashing that long, I almost always go just 48 hours, 3 days tops, but unless you're exceptionally fastidious about racking to a bottling bucket you're going to pull enough yeast off the top of the cake to condition a light to normal gravity beer, never mind what's still suspended in the crashed beer. That's even more likely if you're the type that mixes primer solution into the primary fermenter and bottles directly.

When I was still bottle conditioning I always used a bucket and will confess if I got a particularly clean transfer I'd go back and scoop a full tablespoon off the cake and added it in with the priming sugar for good luck

Cheers!

 

[CodeSection]

Well, I followed my regular process which involved dumping some yeast through the 2" bottom dump valve into a 2" sightglass before racking the beer into the bottling bucket. When I have about two gallons in the bucket, I add the priming sugar. I never thought of adding a tablespoon of yeast to the bucket if needed. Good idea.

I guess I will find out in about two weeks. I'm going to wait three weeks before I crack open the first bottle. I'm brewing later tonight and will definitely stay with 48 hours on cold crashing that batch. Thanks for responding

 

[day_trippr]

Did you use a soda bottle as an early indicator of the conditioning progression?
I always thought that was a brilliant idea that can cut down the "not quite ready" problem...

Cheers!

 

[CodeSection]

Did you use a soda bottle as an early indicator of the conditioning progression?
I always thought that was a brilliant idea that can cut down the "not quite ready" problem...

Cheers!

No, I don't know what that process is. If I were to guess, would it be to fill a soda bottling when bottling just like the other glass bottles and the after awhile squeeze it or take a sip out of it to determine if it is carbonated well enough? Something like that?

I think there was a thread about plastic beer bottles somewhere. I'll have to look.

EDIT: It was months ago I read something about plastic bottles. Well I didn't have to look far as there was a post on them that was started just today. So it is a squeeze test for feel of hardness. Got it. Now I need to buy some plastic soda bottles to use later....

 

[CodeSection]

@day_trippr, opened up my first bottle of that batch that I cold crashed for a week. After three weeks of conditioning, the carbonation and taste was spot on! The glass lasted less than five minutes....

Even though everything turned out ok, I will cold crash for 48 hours with my current batch that is fermenting.

@Dave Sarber, did you follow through with the caps? Do you have any pictures to share?

 

[Dave Sarber]

@day_trippr, opened up my first bottle of that batch that I cold crashed for a week. After three weeks of conditioning, the carbonation and taste was spot on! The glass lasted less than five minutes....

Even though everything turned out ok, I will cold crash for 48 hours with my current batch that is fermenting.

@Dave Sarber, did you follow through with the caps? Do you have any pictures to share?

Not yet...