Looking for advice on removing ceiling fan

[SteveH aka shetc]

So the ceiling fan in the bedroom doesn't have a remote? Maybe some clues in the way those switches are wired?

Wellllllll, that's the room directly above so I was checking that based on Deadalus' suggestion - I'll need to open the switch cover and have a look. The bedroom next to it (but not directly overhead) has the same cockamamie in-wall remote control set up as my office.

 

[SteveH aka shetc]

So what do you have in the ceiling? You said the switch is live, but if it really is a switch to nowhere that seems like a bad idea. That red wire has to go somewhere, and without knowing where I wouldn't want to energize it.

Yeah, it's a mystery - I have to make a decision about it eventually, which probably involves paying a pro to check it. I don't think it is worth getting something routed to the ceiling from the switch as I can buy a "smart" fan.

 

[mac_1103]

I have to make a decision about it eventually, which probably involves paying a pro to check it.

If it really doesn't do anything except energize a wire that is capped off somewhere else, then you should be able to just remove it and cap that red wire and... nothing will happen.

 

[Deadalus]

There doesn't happen to be a red wire tucked up inside the ceiling light box by chance?

Three wire (with the red wire on the switch) is usually used for either two controllable hots for independent light/fan power or as part of a three-way switch circuit (which this doesn't appear to be).

Yeah. It's probably 14/3 wire, can't see the insulation. Minor clue is that it enters the box from the bottom. The junction box looks like old work with tabs that turn with 2 screws. Any wire from the ceiling box would most likely run across the ceiling and then down the wall bay to the junction box. They might have just used the bottom clamp to be on the same side as the other wire coming in. You could probably get the junction box to come out some and see which direction the wires go. It's a small clue though, they could just duck right through a stud.

If the red wire is tucked in the ceiling box you would have the correct wires for a fan and light. No need for that radio switch to begin with, somewhat confusing why they had it. An issue you are going to have is that you have a double gang box. The newer fans that have the remotes are great for when you have pull chains and only one switch (or none if I am reading @day_trippr correctly). If neither wire in the wall goes to the ceiling you will have a blank switchplate over that box. You have to leave it accessible, you can't wall over it since there are live wires inside.

 

[Deadalus]

If you didn't need to use the wall junction box, you could trace incoming power back to the next junction box and disconnect it there. It could be coming in on either line. Then you could remove the junction box as it wouldn't be live and fix the hole in the wall. That might create a code issue later as far as lighting for a room however. I know a switched outlet for a lamp qualifies, overhead with a switch, probably a pull chain, but not sure about a remote by itself.

 

[PCABrewing]

So the ceiling fan in the bedroom doesn't have a remote? Maybe some clues in the way those switches are wired?

That looks like (similar) to the unit that I had.
The part in the wall with the buttons was actually a receiver.
You could set the speed at the wall plate or via an obviously missing remote that transmitted to the wall unit.

 

[mac_1103]

The part in the wall with the buttons was actually a receiver.

Wouldn't the part in the wall be the transmitter? The receiver is the plastic thing in the fan housing in the other photo in #23. My WAG is that this fan was originally wired with two switches like the one in the room above and someone added the remote kit later. But why they wouldn't just eliminate both switches when they did that is a mystery.

 

[FloppyKnockers]

Just for completeness, below is a snapshot of the switch wiring. I just went upstairs to check the bedroom that is above my office. That bedroom has 2 wall switches to control a fan and its lights. Here's the ironic part: the bedroom has the same fan/light fixture as my office, and, for some reason, the freaking ring is not secured in place, so I could have figured out how to loosen the one in my office

For the office, I guess the easiest solution is a "smart" fan that controls both fan and lights via a remote or voice assistant. The wall switch to nowhere is annoying - is it a possible hazard?
View attachment 851108

Get yerself one of these do-dads. It has been a lifesaver for me. It's great for tracing electrical wire, data cables, testing data cables. I had an outlet above my fireplace that was dead. Traced the line back to an outlet that wasn't hooked up for whatever reason... Stupid, former home owners and the ones before them, and the ones before them.

 

[Deadalus]

Wellllllll, that's the room directly above so I was checking that based on Deadalus' suggestion - I'll need to open the switch cover and have a look. The bedroom next to it (but not directly overhead) has the same cockamamie in-wall remote control set up as my office.

So what I was thinking is that maybe someone branched off an outlet for power upstairs and routed a line to the ceiling downstairs.

However, I'm not convinced your three wire (red, black, white) from the wall switch does not run to the ceiling. You don't use three wire except as needed, which is either to a ceiling fan or a three way switch as mentioned. For the line in the ceiling, were you able to get a look to a point where the outer insulation of the complete wire was visible? I'm thinking maybe they clipped the residual red wire off back to the entrance to the box or even further. If you can expose that wire back to the outer insulation, you might see that it is 14/3. @mac_1103 suggested a closed off three way switch but simplest answer is that three wire was for the ceiling. Also there is a single pole light switch on that wire, not a three way switch. The black and the white wire from the three wire are connected to what I think is the line power. With the power on, you could check the black and white wires in the ceiling for power. Then turn the power off, and I am assuming you have the correct breaker for both the ceiling and wall, disconnnect the black and white in the three wire, then you could tape all the wall wires with electrical tape, turn on the power and see if the ceiling wires have power. If they don't you just disconnected them and you know where that three wire goesl The switch couldn't have affected the ceiling fan because it's pigtailed into the power (so live) but the switch was turning off the red wire, not the black one.

That radio switch is Hampton Bay as well, it did not come separate. It was likely part of the ceiling fan you took out. I image searched your switch and found other references to it but nothing revealing. Other people were stumped too!

 

[mac_1103]

suggested a closed off three way switch but simplest answer is that three wire was for the ceiling.

Yeah, but I changed my mind later and guessed that it was originally separate switches for the light and the fan.

there is a single pole light switch on that wire, not a three way switch

Good catch. OP says the switch doesn't do anything, but I suppose it's possible that he just hasn't figured out what it does yet.

 

[Deadalus]

Yeah, but I changed my mind later and guessed that it was originally separate switches for the light and the fan.

Good catch. OP says the switch doesn't do anything, but I suppose it's possible that he just hasn't figured out what it does yet.

I just wanted to give you credit for it, it was plausible.

It's a simple switch, it might have worked the light part of the before this current one. The lights are just on or off. I put dimmers on mine but as far as the pull chains, the fan is what has multiple settings, the light pull chain is just on or off typically. If the red wire is further back though cut off, there may not be enought slack left to use it if it doesn't reach into the junction box. They might have cut it and taped it just to get it out of the way or spiraled it around the other wires but further back. I think it's up there!

 

[mac_1103]

If the red wire is further back though cut off, there may not be enought slack left to use it if it doesn't reach into the junction box. They might have cut it and taped it just to get it out of the way or spiraled it around the other wires but further back. I think it's up there!

I think you're probably right. So why the hell did they leave the switch in the box? And connected to a hot to boot.

 

[Agent]

However, I'm not convinced your three wire (red, black, white) from the wall switch does not run to the ceiling. You don't use three wire except as needed, which is either to a ceiling fan or a three way switch as mentioned.

TBF, I'm pretty sure I've laid a run or two of unnecessary three wire because Menards doesn't sell Romex in 6 packs and efficiency doesn't matter when you've already saved $6k+ in electrician labor.

And I snipped the red lines to minimize the confusion. But it's amazing what can be made to work in a pinch.

 

[whoaru99]

Wire snippers should have their snippers snipped off.

I'd suggest instead leave a normal length in the box but label it unused/for future use if it's a concern.

 

[whoaru99]

BTW/FWIW, since three conductor cable and switches came up, for new work/new circuits, many switch locations now and have for a while required a neutral wire. Thus, need 3 wire w/ground cable even if it's just a simple hot side switch loop.

Old/existing installs are grandfathered to allow the grounding wire to carry a tiny amount of current for electronic/smart type switches that need a neutral connection.

The newer Code rule requiring three wires is to get that current off the grounding wire and onto the grounded wire (aka neutral) where it belongs.

 

[SteveH aka shetc]

I think you're probably right. So why the hell did they leave the switch in the box? And connected to a hot to boot.

I taped a stick to an old smart phone, pushed the phone though the hole in the ceiling, and took some video. There are only white romex cables up there.

 

[mac_1103]

There are only white romex cables up there.

Still could be 14/3.

 

[whoaru99]

And, AFAIK, the color coded jacketing to identify "Romex" types didn't come into play until the early 2000s timeframe.

 

[PCABrewing]

Wouldn't the part in the wall be the transmitter? The receiver is the plastic thing in the fan housing in the other photo in #23. My WAG is that this fan was originally wired with two switches like the one in the room above and someone added the remote kit later. But why they wouldn't just eliminate both switches when they did that is a mystery.

That could be, it;s been 18 years since I replaced it. In my case there would be two transmitters, the one in the wall and the one on the nightstand.

 

[Deadalus]

I think you're probably right. So why the hell did they leave the switch in the box? And connected to a hot to boot.

Homeowner/handyman/brother-in-law did a replacement ceiling fan for the original setup. The second two people might not have expected the radio feature. Note the ceiling receiver had a set of unused, labelled wires, which in my guesswork, should have been used. Original ceiling fan likely had two switches, with one left so there wasn't a blank or in case of future replacement. Shouldn't have left it live!

 

[Deadalus]

I taped a stick to an old smart phone, pushed the phone though the hole in the ceiling, and took some video. There are only white romex cables up there.

Three wire is more rounded vs 2 wire. Three wire uses bare metal staples typically, whereas 2 wire uses a plastic strap with two small nails. The full metal staples can be used on 2 wire, and installers may not use the correct staples either, if at all, so no guarantee. However, your three wire in the wall box has either white or light gray insulation. It can be seen on the lower clamped wire in your picture.

 

[whoaru99]

Looking at the picture of the wall box and light switch, the 2-wire cable that appears to go up out of the box is wired live. That seems to coincide with needing to use the pull chain to turn the ceiling fan light on/off. That could be easily disconnected to confirm it's the ceiling feed.

The 3-wire cable with the red appears to come into the box from below. That's not an absolute guarantee it is from below but I think it's a new consideration to explore.

Sometimes there are switched and/or split wired duplex receptacles where one outlet is live and the other is switched. Those are not immediately obvious unless you've actually used it. Have you checked for that possibility (and rather than what's above, what's below that might be on that switched leg)?

 

[SteveH aka shetc]

Homeowner/handyman/brother-in-law did a replacement ceiling fan for the original setup. The second two people might not have expected the radio feature. Note the ceiling receiver had a set of unused, labelled wires, which in my guesswork, should have been used. Original ceiling fan likely had two switches, with one left so there wasn't a blank or in case of future replacement. Shouldn't have left it live!

If you are referring to this photo then the 3 bottom wires are attached to the fan/light fixture.

 

[SteveH aka shetc]

The 3-wire cable with the red appears to come into the box from below. That's not an absolute guarantee it is from below but I think it's a new consideration to explore.

Sometimes there are switched and/or split wired duplex receptacles where one outlet is live and the other is switched. Those are not immediately obvious unless you've actually used it. Have you checked for that possibility (and rather than what's above, what's below that might be on that switched leg)?

I used this tester on both outlets in each receptacle - they all work but none are controlled by the wall switch.

 

[Deadalus]

If you are referring to this photo then the 3 bottom wires are attached to the fan/light fixture.
View attachment 851257

OK my bad, I thought that was a separate set and maybe why all the functions didn't work but you capped them off. The labels were hard to read. There was a programming step mentioned for Hampton Bay ceiling fan radio controllers, may have not been programmed fully or was out of whack then.

 

[SteveH aka shetc]

Well, guys and gals, I think there isn't much more to this thread.

1) It looks like there is a hot red wire from the wall socket to who knows where. If I have understood your comments correctly then I can ignore as it is probably capped off somewhere. I am anal retentive so I might just have to get a pro electrician out to look at it. I will leave the switch in the wall though I'll probably patch the hole for just the single switch (anal retention in action).

2) For the fan/light fixture, I can buy one with voice-assisted/remote control unit so that at least the fan and lights are controlled from 1 source.

I really do appreciate all your help!

 

[mac_1103]

1) It looks like there is a hot red wire from the wall socket to who knows where. If I have understood your comments correctly then I can ignore as it is probably capped off somewhere. I am anal retentive so I might just have to get a pro electrician out to look at it. I will leave the switch in the wall though I'll probably patch the hole for just the single switch (anal retention in action).

Don't ignore it. Right now you have a switched red wire that quite possibly terminates somewhere in a wall or ceiling. That is a potentially dangerous situation. Disconnect it from the switch and cap it off. Disconnect the hot from that switch too and remove it. If the ceiling box is still hot then a new fixture should work off the remote. You can leave the disconnected switch in the box if you want - it will now be a switch both to nowhere and from nowhere. However, this will still be a code violation since you need a switched fixture or outlet somewhere in the room. So I would try disconnecting the two remaining black wires from each other and capping them separately. If only one is hot when you turn the breaker back on, then you can connect them to a single pole switch for the ceiling fixture and just leave it in the on position all the time so that the remote controls everything and the whole thing is to code.

Disclaimer - I am not an electrician; I don't play one on TV; In fact, I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

 

[BongoYodeler]

Well, guys and gals, I think there isn't much more to this thread.

1) It looks like there is a hot red wire from the wall socket to who knows where. If I have understood your comments correctly then I can ignore as it is probably capped off somewhere. I am anal retentive so I might just have to get a pro electrician out to look at it. I will leave the switch in the wall though I'll probably patch the hole for just the single switch (anal retention in action).

2) For the fan/light fixture, I can buy one with voice-assisted/remote control unit so that at least the fan and lights are controlled from 1 source.

I really do appreciate all your help!

When I replaced my ceiling fan (it had a fan/outlet wall switch), I bought one of these trough Etsy,

https://www.etsy.com/listing/956759327/for-ashby-park-remote-holder-light?ga_order=most_relevant&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_search_query=ceiling+fan+remote+holder&ref=sr_gallery-1-2&content_source=d1ff1352a6567c9b643a72e6e453a3e85040320d%3A956759327&organic_search_click=1

 

[SteveH aka shetc]

When I replaced my ceiling fan (it had a fan/outlet wall switch), I bought one of these trough Etsy,

https://www.etsy.com/listing/956759327/for-ashby-park-remote-holder-light?ga_order=most_relevant&ga_search_type=all&ga_view_type=gallery&ga_search_query=ceiling+fan+remote+holder&ref=sr_gallery-1-2&content_source=d1ff1352a6567c9b643a72e6e453a3e85040320d%3A956759327&organic_search_click=1

Nice! Thanks

 

[SteveH aka shetc]

Don't ignore it. Right now you have a switched red wire that quite possibly terminates somewhere in a wall or ceiling. That is a potentially dangerous situation. Disconnect it from the switch and cap it off. Disconnect the hot from that switch too and remove it. If the ceiling box is still hot then a new fixture should work off the remote. You can leave the disconnected switch in the box if you want - it will now be a switch both to nowhere and from nowhere. However, this will still be a code violation since you need a switched fixture or outlet somewhere in the room. So I would try disconnecting the two remaining black wires from each other and capping them separately. If only one is hot when you turn the breaker back on, then you can connect them to a single pole switch for the ceiling fixture and just leave it in the on position all the time so that the remote controls everything and the whole thing is to code.

Disclaimer - I am not an electrician; I don't play one on TV; In fact, I didn't even stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

I'll disconnect the red for the moment, and get an electrician to see if they figure out what is going on. Thanks!

 

[whoaru99]

I'll disconnect the red for the moment, and get an electrician to see if they figure out what is going on. Thanks!

Personally, if you're calling in an electrician I'd leave it alone for him.

The wire should dead with the switch off. Tape the switch in the off position in the mean time if it's a big worry.