Looking for a pump to replace my March 809 Pump

[EinGutesBier]

Today is a sad day. I couldn't brew today because my 809 has officially kicked the bucket (tested it before brewing, thank God) and efforts to clean the impeller, etc. has made no appreciable difference. I've only had the darn thing for a year. Just to clarify, the application for this pump is for my Shirron plate chiller. I've found a lot of possible replacements for my March 809 and my search has me running all around the internet with no clear choice. I'm hoping you can help me make an educated decision. Aside from manufacturer and model, I'm mostly concerned about getting a new pump, with enough power for my chiller, in a reasonable time frame.

I'm looking at the Little Giant 3-MD-MT-HC right now. It's runs at 500 GPM and 1/25 HP. This leaves me with a couple questions. First, is this usable in a homebrewing application? Second, do you folks have any alternative suggestions to the Little Giant (not March, please!) Finally, I'm trying to figure out if there are any reputable retailers out there that some of you may have dealt with prior. Thank you all in advance, I appreciate your help!

 

[Catt22]

I've been using a Little Giant Little Giant 3-MD-MT-HC pump for more than six years with zero problems:

http://www.drillspot.com/products/72471/Little_Giant_3-MD-MT-HC_Magnetic_Drive_Pump

 

[EinGutesBier]

I've been using a Little Giant Little Giant 3-MD-MT-HC pump for more than six years with zero problems:

http://www.drillspot.com/products/72471/Little_Giant_3-MD-MT-HC_Magnetic_Drive_Pump

Would you recommend it for use in a Shirron? Or is it only suitable for transferring?

 

[samc]

Walter from March Pumps is on HBT. Why not ask him about fixing what you have? Might be a low/no cost solution.

 

[EinGutesBier]

Walter from March Pumps is on HBT. Why not ask him about fixing what you have? Might be a low/no cost solution.

I appreciate the head's up. He already responded to my wife when she was commenting about the circumstance with the pump. We were hoping his advice to clean the impeller and all that good stuff would fix it. Unfortunately, it turned freely and smooth before and after the cleaning. Bugger still didn't work, so I'm looking for a replacement. In any case, he did offer to check it out if we ship it to him, which we might do just for giggles. In the mean time, I still gotta brew! :rockin:

 

[Catt22]

Would you recommend it for use in a Shirron? Or is it only suitable for transferring?

The LG pump is an all purpose home brewing pump and, IMO it should work well with the Shirron or most any chiller.

 

[BigBadMikey]

Can't you just replace the pump head? I bought a spare to have on hand just in case of a problem.

 

[EinGutesBier]

Can't you just replace the pump head? I bought a spare to have on hand just in case of a problem.

Maybe I'm just being a pessimist or something along those lines, but I guess I'm disappointed that the pump has already failed after a year of use. About half that year, it had been working fairly poorly to anyway. I'm not out to smear the manufacturer of March pumps, but I'm saying my experience hasn't been very positive. My opinion is instead of putting more parts into something that never worked terribly well for me (and appears to be mechanically sound after inspecting it), I may as well just put that money toward something that has a better chance of meeting my needs. I haven't really seen any negative press about the Little Giant, so it seems like a good way to go.

 

[BigBadMikey]

The problems that I have encountered have been due to my own mistakes.
I have let the pump run dry, which resulted in the pump squeaking badly.
However, the pump still worked. I have also had problems with air getting into the system because I did not have adequate sealing. Since I have done a better job at sealing lines (proper clamping) and proper priming, I have not had any problems. In my estimation, the 809 is a good product if treated properly. Good luck with the little Giant.

 

[FishFace]

Check brushes on pump, not sure on March if they are accesible. Most motors stop IMHO because brushes wear down.

 

[Catt22]

Check brushes on pump, not sure on March if they are accesible. Most motors stop IMHO because brushes wear down.

It's extremely unlikely that the motor brushes are worn down or otherwise not functioning properly. We typically only use these pumps for very short durations and even then, only occasionally. These pumps are designed for and fully capable of continuous operation.

 

[stevehaun]

Does the motor run with the head removed? If yes, then you probably still need to clean the head more. In brewing applications, beerstone builds up in the pump. I have used mine for at least 8 years and it has locked up several times. If you give the pump head and parts an overnight soak in an acidic solution - Star San would work well, it should take care of your problem. I now flush my pump with an acid rinse when I am cleaning my plate chiller and I no longer have this problem.

 

[stevehaun]

One other thought, if your problem results from beerstone build up, it will happen to the replacement Little Giant pump as well

 

[FishFace]

Bosch told me the same thing about their dryer. I have changed the brushes twice. Not saying that is the thing, but if the motor doesn't turn at all? Well then no power to electromagnets, break in wire, or brushes not making contact. I doubt its the windings. But as said earlier, if it works sans head then clean away.

2¢

 

[WalterAtMarchPump]

Check brushes on pump, not sure on March if they are accesible. Most motors stop IMHO because brushes wear down.

Our motors dont have brushes...you would typicly find those on a DC motor. If you have a motor that is pluging into 115v outlet and has brushes then you still have a DC motor, but they have whats called a triac or triode inside that allows it to work properly with AC power.

-Walter

 

[PhoebeAnn]

I had a March 809 pump with a 24VDC motor in a solar water heating application that lasted about 3 years. By then the brushes had worn to the point where the interior of the motor was filled with carbon. I took the motor apart, cleaned out the carbon, reassembled it, and it worked fine until a week ago. Meanwhile, I tried to find a replacement set of brushes, to no avail. Bottom line, according to a couple of distributors, is that the brushes on a March DC motor (this one, anyway) are not available, even though they are replaceable if you're motivated. I've been trying to find a generic brush that could be made to work, but so far no joy.

This time I replaced the motor with a non-March brushless motor. I thought about replacing the DC motor with an AC motor, but it would complicate the control system, which varies the speed of the motor proportionally to the intensity of the sun.

 

[PhoebeAnn]

I just found a website which claims to have brushes available; however, they were expensive enough that 2 brush changes (i.e., about 6 years in service) justify replacing the motor with a brushless, which claims 50,000 hours MTF.

 

[WalterAtMarchPump]

The brushes for the Owosso motors would be part# 0809-0173-1000 and have a list price of $26 If you have an older Rae Corp motor then the part number would be 0809-0138-1000 and have a list price of $66 since that motor is NLA and we have very limited supply of the brushes since the company no longer makes them.
The biggest issue with the solar guys is that most hook them up straight to the solar panels and let it go.....a 12v solar panel can have swings as much as 18v on a bright sunny day...and 24v panels can swing upwards of 30v. When you put more voltage into a brush type motor the RPM of the motor increases and you dramatically shorten the brush life. These little motors are rated for about 15k hrs of life running at their designed voltage. The other issue with the motors that have the serviceable brushes, is if they are not caught in time at the end of the brush life, you can damage the rotor area where the brushes come in contact....if that is damaged then each brush you place in there to replace with will wear even faster then the previous one because the damage on the rotor is acting like sand paper against the brush.
As for brushless motors....we do have those versions as well for the 809's....but keep in mind that a brushless motor has circuitry onboard to operate the motor....go to high outside its operating window and you can fry the motor.....drop below that window and they will start to switch on/off as the circuits charge up and discharge...

-Walter

 

[PhoebeAnn]

Thanks, Walter, for that explanation, which nobody was able to provide to me previously. I don't know my motor's manufacturer -- all I have is the March p/n 0809-0102-1300, and a date sticker of 15/03/06. It claims to be a 24V motor, and the peak open-circuit voltage of the solar panel claims to be 17.3, so I don't think there's an overvoltage issue, although I wonder if the constant undervoltage might cause problems. The commutator looked like new, when I cleaned it up last year.

This year it's another story. The brushes apparently wore down to the last 1/16" or so, then everything went south pretty quickly. The brush springs apparently got loose, the commutator is deeply gouged, and of course there's carbon debris all over. I'm wondering if the "pros" that installed my system (in November 2006) had rebuilt a motor themselves and used off-brand brushes -- I've replaced a lot of brushes in a lot of motors and generators, and have never seen commutator wear this bad or this much loose carbon.

Irregardless (one of my favorite non-words), this motor is trash. If I could replace it on the pump body with a March brushless motor, I'd appreciate knowing the part number. The replacement motor (a Laing D5 Solar) appears to be working fine, but I like to have spares. Also, I miss the noise the March made -- it was just audible in the house and served as a pleasant reminder that we were making "free" hot water. The Laing is almost too quiet to hear. If the brushless motor/pump combination makes more noise, I'd prefer it.

 

[WalterAtMarchPump]

The brushless motors are very quiet...you may or may not hear it depending on how its mounted....wont be anywhere near the noise the brush type make.
If you wanted one of our brushless motors i would suggest you buy the 809-PL version in brushless. Buying the complete pump would end up being cheaper then buying just the motor assembly as the distributors get different discount rates on complete pumps as opposed to just parts. That way you just unbolt the pump head off the assembly and install it on your current pump head an you will have spare parts available should anything happen to go wrong. Now if you have the brass pump head then obviously you wont use the plastic housing and the o-ring from the plastic unit as they are different on the brass....but the reast of all the parts are the same.

-Walter

 

[PhoebeAnn]

Sounds good; I'll look into that. I've got the BR brass pump head and an 809-058-10 polysulfone front housing. Thanks for the help.

 

[Denny330]

solarbrewtalk.com? Now back to your regularly scheduled beer programming....

Did you get the pump running? Can you turn it by hand? Does the motor spin freely without the pump head on? Is the on/off interlock satisfied? How about the power available interlock?

 

[PhoebeAnn]

Did you get the pump running? Can you turn it by hand? Does the motor spin freely without the pump head on? Is the on/off interlock satisfied? How about the power available interlock?

No, the old pump is trash. The commutator is too deeply gouged to be turned down on a lathe. Absent the debris (and brushes), the motor spins freely. I have no idea what interlocks you're talking about.

 

[Denny330]

I have no idea what interlocks you're talking about.

Why am I not suprised?

I was talking about the OP asking about his BEER pump on a BEER forum that is using one of, if not the most common, varieties of pump within our little cottage industry. I am planning on forking out over 450$ on AC (not DC) March BEER pumps in the next two weeks to pump BEER. If there is a problem that the OP is encountering I would like to know.

Any DC motor that has brushes will tell you to periodically clean the machine and replace the brushes in the manual. I am not suprised AT ALL that your commutator is eaten to hell if it took you three years to look at the pump. Brushed DC pumps are not "run to failure" machinery. They need periodic maintenance (not at 36 mo) to be cleaned (carbon causes grounds) and replacement (the pig tails are imbedded into the brushes- at 1/16" you are riding the pigtails, it wouldn't matter how strong the brush clips are). People who do not have backgrounds in electrical maintenance will read what you said, and (incorrectly) assume that they need to look at their brushes on their pumps, which is not true. I do not want to see "I NO HAZ BRUSHES WHERE FND THEM ?" posts for the next 5 years because of one off topic post.

Now PLEASE (!) can we get back to our regularly scheduled BEER programming?

 

[PhoebeAnn]

People who do not have backgrounds in electrical maintenance will read what you said, and (incorrectly) assume that they need to look at their brushes on their pumps, which is not true.

I think maybe you meant "....that they do not need to look...", but I get your point.

Any DC motor that has brushes will tell you to periodically clean the machine and replace the brushes in the manual.

Nowhere in the manual for my pump did it mention that periodic inspection of the brushes was required, and replacement brushes are not listed in the spare parts list. I called March and 3 distributors when I had the original problem, and it wasn't until Walter was kind enough to reply to me on this forum that I found they were in fact available. By then, it was too late.

I do not want to see "I NO HAZ BRUSHES WHERE FND THEM ?" posts for the next 5 years because of one off topic post.

The OP's original problem was that his 809 pump had "kicked the bucket", and the thread title is "Looking for a pump to replace my March 809 Pump". I naively thought that since I had the same problem, I was on topic, and might find some guidance in this forum. In fact, one Member advised to check the brushes (I had already done that). Walter then said that March motors "don't have brushes", but once we established that I did indeed have a DC motor (with brushes) he was very helpful.

I apologize for pumping water instead of beer. I will be happy to help anyone with a similar problem fnd [sic] their brushes if they post in this thread, so you can ignore any such posts.