Looking for a German Style Mentor

[Big Monk]

This thread is an example of why advocacy for LODO techniques sometimes crosses the line from interesting and useful information to annoying. The OP didn't ask for advice on LODO, he asked about making German-style lagers. Controlling oxygen is surely part of the answer, but not the whole thing or even most of what he needs. Yet within a few posts, all we're talking about is LODO. Eventually, the thread got moved to LODO.

Sometimes, we need to leave a little air, a little space, for other conversation to happen, perhaps. That's just my opinion, of course.

And I'm not anti-LODO, I think controlling oxygenation is important in brewing. I am relatively rustic in my brewing and do not follow the LODO techniques on the hot-side, but am somewhat careful on the cold side. I admire those who have the time, equipment, space, and inclination to pursue LODO thoroughly. One of my best homebrewing buddies is one of those folks and makes excellent beer. I also admire who slant yeast cultures and pursue other aspects of this hobby that help them make excellent handmade beer.

I think for the most part we are just very passionate about low oxygen brewing. I saw a very well received and conducted discussion up until about Post #15. OP was engaged and interested and frankly, seemed like he had already read up on and implemented some of the equipment modifications we suggest.

Do you have a point in that maybe the speed in which we bring the topic up squashes other types of conversation? Maybe, but I don't see why not. We have so many positive interactions that to boil down discussion of low oxygen brewing to just the contentious ones is a bit of an unfair shake.

I will say that the often negative turn these threads take (not prompted by us) is what drives people off, not discussion of advanced brewing techniques. There are plenty of threads where people propose and discuss opposing viewpoints on techniques for a specific kind of beer. I'd like to get to the point where a thread where discussing low oxygen brewing is looked at more as a viable brewing technique discussion and less like a trainwreck waiting to happen, or worse, a moderator nightmare and locked thread.

 

[Die_Beerery]

Thank you for your detailed reply, I appreciate it (in all honesty really).
Please, I hope it is clear to you that by no means did I mean that EVERYTHING you learned or did in 20 years is "fake".
In my very last post you quoted, I also stated that I really found your info on YOS useful, for example.
The one and only thing I attempted to question was whether most bavarian commercial breweries do de-aerate their water for the brewhouse or not. That is probably only a minuscule fraction in your impressive body of work.

They do, whether they tell you they do or not. As we all know, they are very tight lipped about nearly everything. I do know it is the very foundation of recreating the flavors on smaller systems.

Just for giggles, ask your guy about their brewing water. Because I know for another fact they are using RO/ion exchangers. Curious to hear his take on this one.

Also If you need a bunch of DA water for cold side, why would you get a separate tank (storage space is a HUGE premium for these breweries)? You would just get a big DA tank and use it for everything. IT just makes more sense.

 

[Die_Beerery]

So if industrial bottled beer is "authentic" German beer, as some here suggest, is beer from small, non-industrial brewers that don't bottle their beer "un-authentic"?

No, it's not unauthentic, its just not our target demographic.

What I'm asking is: What exactly is the target flavor? Is that flavor achieved by brewing methods alone, or are there other factors to consider?

The large ones all have a very specific underlying flavors, namely a malty fresh lingering grain flavor (like chewing on fresh grain), non cloying clean flavors.

Can a home brewer with limited time for brewing and limited resources for equipment come close to an authentic flavor?

100%, this is the whole reason we have the site, step by step is here:
http://www.lowoxygenbrewing.com/

 

[Brewbuzzard]

I close on a 20 acre farmette the end of June. I'll have my own dedicated winery/brewery and 4 sources of water on the property. A natural spring fed 2 acre pond stocked with fish, a deep ass huge rain water fed cistern, a deep fully functioning well and municipal water, RO filtered.

Wife wants a root/storm cellar right off the bat. I said sure, I'll dig you one no problem, as long as you will share it with my wines & lagers I'm going to dig it out in a north facing hill good 8' x 12' and at least 8' deep. Then lay in drain tile and pour it all in concrete.

That sounds like heaven. Have fun.

This thread is an example of why advocacy for LODO techniques sometimes crosses the line from interesting and useful information to annoying. The OP didn't ask for advice on LODO, he asked about making German-style lagers. Controlling oxygen is surely part of the answer, but not the whole thing or even most of what he needs. Yet within a few posts, all we're talking about is LODO. Eventually, the thread got moved to LODO.

Sometimes, we need to leave a little air, a little space, for other conversation to happen, perhaps. That's just my opinion, of course.

And I'm not anti-LODO, I think controlling oxygenation is important in brewing. I am relatively rustic in my brewing and do not follow the LODO techniques on the hot-side, but am somewhat careful on the cold side. I admire those who have the time, equipment, space, and inclination to pursue LODO thoroughly. One of my best homebrewing buddies is one of those folks and makes excellent beer. I also admire who slant yeast cultures and pursue other aspects of this hobby that help them make excellent handmade beer.

Well said and duly noted.

 

[Brewbuzzard]

Vale, I'm sorry but we can not converse until you answer my questions I have asked you multiple times. I feel you are purposely avoiding them at this point.

I have an idea, why don't you LODO people start a thread on LODO and get off this one. I am interested in LODO but it's not the subject of this conversation. It could be a small part but it has consumed the thread and taken all the fun out of it. Then maybe Jeff can get what he asked for.

 

[Big Monk]

I have an idea, why don't you LODO people start a thread on LODO and get off this one. I am interested in LODO but it's not the subject of this conversation. It could be a small part but it has consumed the thread and taken all the fun out of it. Then maybe Jeff can get what he asked for.

This is an unfortunate position. He was having a nice, engaged conversation up until about Post #15. He even asked a number of times for the BS to stop so he could continue that conversation. How we end up looking like the bad guys here is beyond me.

 

[Brewbuzzard]

This is an unfortunate position. He was having a nice, engaged conversation up until about Post #15. He even asked a number of times for the BS to stop so he could continue that conversation. How we end up looking like the bad guys here is beyond me.

I'm with you brother. Sad and funny at the same time.

 

[h22lude]

This thread is an example of why advocacy for LODO techniques sometimes crosses the line from interesting and useful information to annoying. The OP didn't ask for advice on LODO, he asked about making German-style lagers. Controlling oxygen is surely part of the answer, but not the whole thing or even most of what he needs. Yet within a few posts, all we're talking about is LODO. Eventually, the thread got moved to LODO.

Sometimes, we need to leave a little air, a little space, for other conversation to happen, perhaps. That's just my opinion, of course.

And I'm not anti-LODO, I think controlling oxygenation is important in brewing. I am relatively rustic in my brewing and do not follow the LODO techniques on the hot-side, but am somewhat careful on the cold side. I admire those who have the time, equipment, space, and inclination to pursue LODO thoroughly. One of my best homebrewing buddies is one of those folks and makes excellent beer. I also admire who slant yeast cultures and pursue other aspects of this hobby that help them make excellent handmade beer.

I think you have it all backwards. You are blaming the low oxygen guys for the thread turning this way simply because low oxygen was mentioned. I know this is cliche but that is like blaming the woman for being raped because she was wearing a bikini. When did it turn negative? When Bilsch mentioned low oxygen or post #15 that was unrelated to helping OP? What is more unrelated to German brewing, low oxygen or post #15? What would help OP recreate the typical German grain pop in his beers, low oxygen or post #15?

 

[Yooper]

Closed due to personal remarks and attacks.