Looking for a German Style Mentor

[Die_Beerery]

Sorry if my tone bothered you but I do tend to loose my cool when I have to repeat myself for the N-th time only to have the same arguments brought up over and over again ad infinitum.


I would either publish a peer reviewed paper that proves my assertion or quote an already published paper that proves my assertion. I would not make the claim "Swimming for four minutes burns more calories than walking a mile" and then quote a paper that proves that jumping 13 times burns more calories than walking a mile and then argue that this proves my assertion too. Ok the simile is a bit forced but hopefully you get the gist.
So, do your homework and publish a complete result and then we might be in business. It does not have to be peer reviewed, just present conclusive results using proper methodology and that would be enough. Until then you have no conclusive proof but your own blind faith and I'm really not interested in that kind of thing.

Ok, fair enough. Can you answer this part?

How do you validate claims in your everyday life? How does ones experiences play into claims? Are these( experiences) valid to you?

For instance... lets say you try and push a cube shape though a circle hole, but it doesn't work. You then put it though a square hole and it goes though. Thats science as well, and I do not know if a peer reviewed paper needs be written to prove it.

 

[Jeff...]

What do you mean? Oxidizing effects from what?

Using Star-San

 

[Die_Beerery]

Using Star-San

I think where we are going with this is that starsan foams, and foam is bubbles of air. So using a lower foaming sanitizer would/should/could have less bubbles and less potential oxidation, when say purging a keg for a closed transfer.

 

[corax]

To prove the effectiveness of your methods and the lack of serious side effects you'd need analytical capabilities that are well beyond your (the collective you) means. So, unless you have a full lab that includes a suitable HPLC column at your disposal and know what and how to measure all your data, while perhaps interesting to look at, is utterly inconclusive.

Do you demand this stringent a level of supporting data for all techniques discussed among home brewers? How about the techniques you employ in your own brewing – do they really have hard QA data backing them up at the homebrewing level, or do you just take them for granted because they always seem to give satisfactory results?

 

[Jeff...]

I think where we are going with this is that starsan foams, and foam is bubbles of air. So using a lower foaming sanitizer would/should/could have less bubbles and less potential oxidation, when say purging a keg for a closed transfer.

Thank you ^^^ what he said ^^^

 

[Bilsch]

I really starting to feel like I'm just pointlessly banging my head against a wall with no results.

I totally agree with you on this point. Maybe it’s time to give your head a rest.

 

[Jeff...]

Would iodophor (IO-Star) be better than Star-San? Speaking to oxidizing beer, in a closed and purged transfer scenario?

I've been thinking of switching out sanitizers anyways.

IO-Star - low to no foaming.
Star-San - big bubbles no troubles.

 

[Bilsch]

And this is the N-th time I have heard this piece of misinformation mentioned which, again, does not make it right.
The square cube law affects heat loss, it has nothing to do with hot side oxidation (or cold side, for that matter). Feel free to prove otherwise.

Square cube law simply describes an objects volume in relation to its surface area. It has many applications beyond heat transfer. You need to read past the first paragraph on Wikipedia.

 

[Bilsch]

Would iodophor (IO-Star) be better than Star-San? Speaking to oxidizing beer, in a closed and purged transfer scenario?

I've been thinking of switching out sanitizers anyways.

IO-Star - low to no foaming.
Star-San - big bubbles no troubles.

No need to switch as they both have utility. Also it’s good to alternate sanitizers.

 

[Vale71]

Square cube law simply describes an objects volume in relation to its surface area. It has many applications beyond heat transfer. You need to read past the first paragraph on Wikipedia.

I already know the false argument you're going to bring to support your position and already know how to fully debunk it but please do humor me and enlighten me as to why you think the square cube law would mitigate hot side aeration in a brewhouse.

 

[Vale71]

Do you demand this stringent a level of supporting data for all techniques discussed among home brewers? How about the techniques you employ in your own brewing – do they really have hard QA data backing them up at the homebrewing level, or do you just take them for granted because they always seem to give satisfactory results?

If I were ever to claim that a revolutionary technique I've invented and perfected will bring never-before-heard-of improvements to homebrewed beer then yes, most definitely. As it stands I'm not the party making such claims here so I don't see what point you're trying to make?

 

[Big Monk]

I think where we are going with this is that starsan foams, and foam is bubbles of air. So using a lower foaming sanitizer would/should/could have less bubbles and less potential oxidation, when say purging a keg for a closed transfer.

Thank you ^^^ what he said ^^^

Yeah, sorry about the brain fart!

It's been a long time since I've used StarSan or thought about sanitizing in relation to what we talk about.

 

[Lupulus]

I already know the false argument you're going to bring to support your position and already know how to fully debunk it but please do humor me and enlighten me as to why you think the square cube law would mitigate hot side aeration in a brewhouse.

Sorry, are you questioning why a pro brewhouse of x100 the size of a homebrew setup would suffer less aeration than a homebrew setup?

 

[corax]

As it stands I'm not the party making such claims here so I don't see what point you're trying to make?

Simply that demanding HPLC data for a homebrewing technique strikes me as extreme. YMMV.

From what I've seen of it, their data seem solid, their methodology transparent, and their limitations made explicit. I agree that their conclusions require the assumption that low DO achieved by their methods produces the same results as low DO acheieved by professional/research methods – and it's fair enough if you find that to be an assumption too great to make.

But I think there have been quite a few "revolutionary" claims made about homebrew techniques over the years that have had much less supporting evidence, and yet were received much less skeptically. The myriad techniques involving NEIPA come to mind. And for all I know, you're equally or more critical of those. If so, carry on.

 

[Lupulus]

We can all agree that hot-side oxydation causes quality issues and those have been rather extensively documented. Unfortunately they don't match up with what the Lodo crowd here is claiming but whatever... It's the jump from "hot-side oxydation can be an issue" to "all German breweries brewing good beer implement full O2 mitigation hot side" that's still completely unsubstantiated. I understand that is what you like to believe but that doesn't make it true by default...

First, thanks for conceding that HSA does cause quality issues and that those have been documented. That has been most of what has been discussed.
As for "all German breweries brewing good beer implement full O2 mitigation hot side", I don't have the evidence required to support this statement, but I would make an educated guess it's approximately correct for light-colored lagers.
There can be exceptions, but as I mentioned above, they are likely to be rare given the ubiquitous lack of cold storage in Germany.

I freely admit there are classic beers --that many would consider good beers-- that use traditional (non-LODO) methods. Uerige comes to mind. These breweries generally don't package (notable exception that comes to mind: Uerige packages the Doppelsticke, and it doesn't hold up well IMHO).

Thanks for the stimulating discussion and prost!

 

[Die_Beerery]

Ok, fair enough. Can you answer this part?

How do you validate claims in your everyday life? How does ones experiences play into claims? Are these( experiences) valid to you?

For instance... lets say you try and push a cube shape though a circle hole, but it doesn't work. You then put it though a square hole and it goes though. Thats science as well, and I do not know if a peer reviewed paper needs be written to prove it.

Still patiently awaiting an answer, thanks.

 

[Bilsch]

I already know the false argument you're going to bring to support your position and already know how to fully debunk it..

Oh cool, that saves us both time.

 

[Lupulus]

YOU HAVE ZERO DIRECT PROOF THAT ANY OF YOUR METHODS POSITIVELY AFFECT BEER STABILITY OF HOMEBREWED BEER AND YOUR CLAIMS TO THE CONTRARY ARE UNSUBSTANTIATED AND THEREFORE FALSE UNTIL PROVEN OTHERWISE.

You are trying to be clever, thinking that if you use the word "homebrew", you would invalidate all available research.
Unfortunately, you just demonstrated your knowledge of brewing research is extremely limited.
Almost all brewing research is done at a "homebrew" scale, generally in pilot systems of 50 to 200L.
If you think about it, who would brew 30 hL of two or more beers to test an experimental treatment.

Also, the use of "you have zero direct proof", "your methods", "your claims" in your wording is incorrect.
Nobody owns the research. They are not "his methods", or "her claims" or "my proof". Research is published, and if you wish to question it, read it, evaluate it, write to the editor of the journal and question the authors of the research.

In summary, please go read the evidence and if you have something to question, let us know and we can discuss it.

Prosit!

 

[Jeff...]

Yeah, sorry about the brain fart!

It's been a long time since I've used StarSan or thought about sanitizing in relation to what we talk about.

No worries

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

Good morning everybody,

It's a wonderful rainy day in Central Europe!

I'll allow myself just one more comment, then I am definitely out of this, and I'll let @Vale71 continue on his quest alone (I seriously admire your endurance, but I also doubt you will ever get anything out of it...and I'm also of the opinion like many others here that you should sometimes tone your wording down a bit )

I find it odd that no one requested to see at least the full e-mail exchange I had with this person at Weihenstephan (which I offered to do in post #113).
Then on the other hand, some people here are very quick to question either my ability to articulate the right questions in German, that one can also understand, or my ability to translate from German (fyi German is my main working language, although not my mother tongue).
Or this person telling me the truth.
Or insinuating that must have been the wrong person to answer such questions (i.e., this brewer is not really at Weihenstephan...seriously man??).
Or even I just made up the whole thing.

This for me is telling of the fact that these people simply do not want to be confronted with evidence that might question some of their hard-earned convictions (and I do not doubt a second you work really hard and put a lot of commitment in what you are doing! You know, I learned a lot from you in that other thread where you presented evidence that yeast can be extremely effective at picking up O2 given the right conditions).

If someone presents me with evidence I was wrong, I will be the first to admit it. @Bilsch if you remember from that other thread, I immediately admitted I had posted some less than well educated BS about "Herbstoffe"

 

[madscientist451]

I freely admit there are classic beers --that many would consider good beers-- that use traditional (non-LODO) methods. Uerige comes to mind. These breweries generally don't package (notable exception that comes to mind: Uerige packages the Doppelsticke, and it doesn't hold up well IMHO).

I've never been to Germany, at this point, it doesn't look like I'll ever make it over there, so the only examples of real German beer I can try come from multi-national industrial brewers.
So if industrial bottled beer is "authentic" German beer, as some here suggest, is beer from small, non-industrial brewers that don't bottle their beer "un-authentic"?
What I'm asking is: What exactly is the target flavor? Is that flavor achieved by brewing methods alone, or are there other factors to consider?
Can a home brewer with limited time for brewing and limited resources for equipment come close to an authentic flavor?

 

[Big Monk]

Good morning everybody,

It's a wonderful rainy day in Central Europe!

I'll allow myself just one more comment, then I am definitely out of this, and I'll let @Vale71 continue on his quest alone (I seriously admire your endurance, but I also doubt you will ever get anything out of it...and I'm also of the opinion like many others here that you should sometimes tone your wording down a bit )

I find it odd that no one requested to see at least the full e-mail exchange I had with this person at Weihenstephan (which I offered to do in post #113).
Then on the other hand, some people here are very quick to question either my ability to articulate the right questions in German, that one can also understand, or my ability to translate from German (fyi German is my main working language, although not my mother tongue).
Or this person telling me the truth.
Or insinuating that must have been the wrong person to answer such questions (i.e., this brewer is not really at Weihenstephan...seriously man??).
Or even I just made up the whole thing.

This for me is telling of the fact that these people simply do not want to be confronted with evidence that might question some of their hard-earned convictions (and I do not doubt a second you work really hard and put a lot of commitment in what you are doing! You know, I learned a lot from you in that other thread where you presented evidence that yeast can be extremely effective at picking up O2 given the right conditions).

If someone presents me with evidence I was wrong, I will be the first to admit it. @Bilsch if you remember from that other thread, I immediately admitted I had posted some less than well educated BS about "Herbstoffe"

In the interest of giving you a fair shake, and to put to bed the idea that we selectively turn a blind eye to things contrary to what helps us, why don’t you post up the whole exchange. Keep in mind that these threads get a little intense sometimes, and I doubt anyone meant to call into question your intent or personal integrity or aptitude.

It could simply be that they don’t have the degassing equipment at the research brewery. We have contacted personnel at enough of the large scale breweries we often mention, and asked enough pointed questions about thier specific systems, to know that they do have the equipment to deoxygenate water.

Again, these threads get prickly sometimes, so if you got some residual blowback, I apologize.

 

[Die_Beerery]

Good morning everybody,

It's a wonderful rainy day in Central Europe!

I'll allow myself just one more comment, then I am definitely out of this, and I'll let @Vale71 continue on his quest alone (I seriously admire your endurance, but I also doubt you will ever get anything out of it...and I'm also of the opinion like many others here that you should sometimes tone your wording down a bit )

I find it odd that no one requested to see at least the full e-mail exchange I had with this person at Weihenstephan (which I offered to do in post #113).
Then on the other hand, some people here are very quick to question either my ability to articulate the right questions in German, that one can also understand, or my ability to translate from German (fyi German is my main working language, although not my mother tongue).
Or this person telling me the truth.
Or insinuating that must have been the wrong person to answer such questions (i.e., this brewer is not really at Weihenstephan...seriously man??).
Or even I just made up the whole thing.

This for me is telling of the fact that these people simply do not want to be confronted with evidence that might question some of their hard-earned convictions (and I do not doubt a second you work really hard and put a lot of commitment in what you are doing! You know, I learned a lot from you in that other thread where you presented evidence that yeast can be extremely effective at picking up O2 given the right conditions).

If someone presents me with evidence I was wrong, I will be the first to admit it. @Bilsch if you remember from that other thread, I immediately admitted I had posted some less than well educated BS about "Herbstoffe"

Hey, I’m going to try and be short and to the point here while hopefully being very professional.

“Convictions” is a hard sell. I could flip this and say the same for you. Your convictions that this aha gotcha moment is rocking our foundation, but it’s not and here’s why.

Not only, have I seen said equipment with my own eyes, it’s discussed in the coursework I have done at TUM, and at the institute of brewing and distillling. I know master diplo brewers from W, from Paulaner, Ayinger, bitburger, Stiegl, and countless others.

I have a reference page that I have shown in this thread that has hundreds of resources, I have a thousand more sitting in a google drive that I have not released yet. I have done countless blind tastings with groups, and folks from Germany.

I know for a fact Lupulus has also met and talked with students from W, and even met my idol Narziß.

I have brewed thousands of batch’s of beer, from home 5 gallon to 60bbls, where I have tried and implemented a myriad of different processes and techniques. My only bias is that I set out to create the best beer I possibly can in my personal and professional life. The overarching net effect is this. The less oxygen I have in the beer from start to finish, the more it resembles fresh German Beer you would sample and and take out of the lagering tank on a tour of the major facilities. I prefer that flavor, and people literally hire and pay me to reproduce that very thing for them.

So stop and look at this from my point of view. I have 20 years of personal/professional brewing experience including some professional schooling, read thousands of hours of professional and scientific literature, I’m a member of brewingscience.de, masterbrewers of the americas, and the ASBC, lastly have had (literally) thousands of people try these methods and report success.

One day someone on a homebrew forum comes and says I have an email from a guy that says otherwise, so everything I have learned in those 20 years is “fake”. It’s a hard sell you have to admit.

Since the inception of this I have been the only one asked for resources and information (as referenced earlier by people) and I have done nothing but put it forth. I have yet to see people like Palmer, or the bru crew put forth a shred of evidence for any of their claims. But I guess that’s a battle for another day.

I do thank you for taking time out of your day, and thanks for the information to consider.
prosit

 

[Brewbuzzard]

I close on a 20 acre farmette the end of June. I'll have my own dedicated winery/brewery and 4 sources of water on the property. A natural spring fed 2 acre pond stocked with fish, a deep ass huge rain water fed cistern, a deep fully functioning well and municipal water, RO filtered.

Wife wants a root/storm cellar right off the bat. I said sure, I'll dig you one no problem, as long as you will share it with my wines & lagers I'm going to dig it out in a north facing hill good 8' x 12' and at least 8' deep. Then lay in drain tile and pour it all in concrete.

That sounds like heaven. Have fun Jeff

 

[Pappers_]

This thread is an example of why advocacy for LODO techniques sometimes crosses the line from interesting and useful information to annoying. The OP didn't ask for advice on LODO, he asked about making German-style lagers. Controlling oxygen is surely part of the answer, but not the whole thing or even most of what he needs. Yet within a few posts, all we're talking about is LODO. Eventually, the thread got moved to LODO.

Sometimes, we need to leave a little air, a little space, for other conversation to happen, perhaps. That's just my opinion, of course.

And I'm not anti-LODO, I think controlling oxygenation is important in brewing. I am relatively rustic in my brewing and do not follow the LODO techniques on the hot-side, but am somewhat careful on the cold side. I admire those who have the time, equipment, space, and inclination to pursue LODO thoroughly. One of my best homebrewing buddies is one of those folks and makes excellent beer. I also admire who slant yeast cultures and pursue other aspects of this hobby that help them make excellent handmade beer.

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

One day someone on a homebrew forum comes and says I have an email from a guy that says otherwise, so everything I have learned in those 20 years is “fake”. It’s a hard sell you have to admit.

Thank you for your detailed reply, I appreciate it (in all honesty really).
Please, I hope it is clear to you that by no means did I mean that EVERYTHING you learned or did in 20 years is "fake".
In my very last post you quoted, I also stated that I really found your info on YOS useful, for example.
The one and only thing I attempted to question was whether most bavarian commercial breweries do de-aerate their water for the brewhouse or not. That is probably only a minuscule fraction in your impressive body of work.

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

In the interest of giving you a fair shake, and to put to bed the idea that we selectively turn a blind eye to things contrary to what helps us, why don’t you post up the whole exchange.

Thanks. I'll need to ask that person whether he agrees on this, then sure, I could do that.
It's one thing to forward an e-mail to someone, it's quite another to publish that e-mail openly on an internet forum.

 

[Big Monk]

Thanks. I'll need to ask that person whether he agrees on this, then sure, I could do that.
It's one thing to forward an e-mail to someone, it's quite another to publish that e-mail openly on an internet forum.

Just to reiterate, this isn't a gotcha for you. Far from it. There is a high degree of confidence that given what we know about the brewhouses at many of these facilities, through first hand accounts of seeing the equipment, etc. that degassing is taking place. It could very well be that this admittedly expensive equipment is not utilized at the research level brewery.

That means both sides of this sub-discussion are likely correct.

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

Just to reiterate, this isn't a gotcha for you. Far from it. There is a high degree of confidence that given what we know about the brewhouses at many of these facilities, through first hand accounts of seeing the equipment, etc. that degassing is taking place. It could very well be that this admittedly expensive equipment is not utilized at the research level brewery.

That means both sides of this sub-discussion are likely correct.

Yes, but with the difference that this person was referring not just to the research brewery, but to other broader sense commercial breweries as well: "also ich kenne keine Brauerei, die Ihr Wasser für das Sudhaus entgast" --> "I am not aware of any brewery that degasses their water for the brewhouse". He did though confirm that degassed water is being used in the cold side (filtration and filling).

 

[Vale71]

Yeah, I'm sure it's very likely that the head of the research brewery at Weihenstephan has no idea what goes on in the commercial brewery run by the very same entity and literally located next door to him. As opposed to some guys on the Internet claiming to know intimate details about that operation and basically every other operation in Germany. It's totally believable, really.

I'm sorry if my sarcastic tone offends you but you're really, really making it too hard to resist the temptation. I mean, come on, just give up, will you?