Looking for a German Style Mentor

[Die_Beerery]

Would you also include the likes of e.g. Augustiner, Tegernseer, Ayinger, Weihenstephaner, etc. into this category?

Yes.

Do you know if those are also implementing low oxygen procedures?

Of course, thats who we try and emulate doing the things we do.

 

[Die_Beerery]

Thanks for the list! I couldn't get the Kunze link (to vlb) to work.

Fixed, thanks.

 

[Big Monk]

Which German breweries would you consider as "Macro"?
Would you also include the likes of e.g. Augustiner, Tegernseer, Ayinger, Weihenstephaner, etc. into this category?
Most of these highly respected bavarian breweries I wouldn't consider as Macro personally, and they are producing Helles Lager as their core beer style. Do you know if those are also implementing low oxygen procedures?

Yes.

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

Yes.

Of course, thats who we try and emulate doing the things we do.

Alright, I get it, thanks.
It's just that I wasn't able to associate a brewery like e.g. Weihenstephan to the word "Macro".
But yeah, it makes sense, even Weihenstephan is an industrial brewery with a fairly large production and distribution. I know that and other bavarian breweries quite well (besides their inner workings, that is) as I spent 4 years of my life at Freising-Weihenstephan....but NOT at the brewing faculty, otherwise I would probably know a bit more on the specific subject at hand .

 

[Jeff...]

What recipe and specific ingredients did you use?
Also, what was your process?
What beers are you comparing it to?

I've tried a number of recipes including extract in the beginning. But this is as far as I got with recipe tweaking before deciding I'm missing something important in my technique(s) and asking for a mentor.

Please don't laugh at the recipe. I need help and I know it.

 

[Bilsch]

IMO.. Munich, Pilsner and caramunich or carahell are the only malts you should need to make a good bock. Any more and you just muddy the flavor. The most important ingredient is process.

 

[Jeff...]

IMO.. Munich, Pilsner and caramunich or carahell are the only malts you should need to make a good bock. Any more and you just muddy the flavor. The most important ingredient is process.

That's was kind of the first all-grain attempt. Besides I used carmel 80 instead of caramunich or carahell.

 

[Brewbuzzard]

I am for the most part a traditional German brewer. I've been Brewing excellent German bier for years and have won many awards in very large competitions. Now that my arm hurts from patting myself on the back, I have to say I've never tried the complete LODO brewing method. But it is common brewing knowledge that hotside aeration is BAD. We all or should try to eliminate it wherever possible. Don't splash in the MLT, stir the mash gently, sparge gently, don't splash on the transfer to the BK, etc. I've even thought of using a blanket of CO2 in my MLT. So it stands to reason LODO is a good thing and nothing to get uptight about. If you don't want to use it fine.

On the water side of the discussion I just installed an RO DI system in the brewery because I was tired of buying and carrying 40 gal of water every brew day. Some mentioned Munchen water. I never try to match water from any one region because no water is perfect for every bier. Instead I build the water that's best for the given style I'm brewing at the time. I would imagine the German brewers do the same.
prost

 

[Jeff...]

I am for the most part a traditional German brewer. I've been Brewing excellent German bier for years and have won many awards in very large competitions. Now that my arm hurts from patting myself on the back, I have to say I've never tried the complete LODO brewing method. But it is common brewing knowledge that hotside aeration is BAD. We all or should try to eliminate it wherever possible. Don't splash in the MLT, stir the mash gently, sparge gently, don't splash on the transfer to the BK, etc. I've even thought of using a blanket of CO2 in my MLT. So it stands to reason LODO is a good thing and nothing to get uptight about. If you don't want to use it fine.

On the water side of the discussion I just installed an RO DI system in the brewery because I was tired of buying and carrying 40 gal of water every brew day. Some mentioned Munchen water. I never try to match water from any one region because no water is perfect for every bier. Instead I build the water that's best for the given style I'm brewing at the time. I would imagine the German brewers do the same.
prost

Practical knowledge right there. I'm starting to feel really good about asking for help. I've already learned so much in a very short time, I can't begin to thank you all enough. I hear all the time from friends and family "all you got to do is ask" well... I'm glad I did.

I have a lot of studying to do, thanks to Die_Beerery and I mean that sincerely. Not that I'll comprehend even a fraction of it. But it's crazy how much, I've packed into my brain already. I've read of several misconceptions already, that I've corrected in my thought process.

Little story... My son in law came over this evening and of course there's always home brew on tap. I said go and get you a beer. I told him that I have Sazzy German Pilsner, Notty Blonde Ale and a German Kölsch. He said he wanted the Blonde ale. After he raves about how good the blonde ale was. I said try a little of the pilsner. So he went for another quart of brew.

He took a drink and his eyes lit up. He said Holy **** you brewed this? Yes I did son, it was perhaps the most intimidating of all the beers, I've brewed yet. He said why is that? Because there is no where to hide your mistakes in a pilsner. Each and every one of your mistakes from grain to glass shows up in the final beer. He said well you did a excellent job on this beer. He may think so, but I can taste my mistakes in the beer. This taught me a valuable lesson... I guess we who brew, are our own worst critics. Here's a picture of my dumb luck German Pilsner. That I put so much love and care into.

It felt very odd adding in 4 ounces of Sazz hops to wort, throughout the boil. But based on the alpha acid contents of 2.8, it's what was needed for 25.5 IBU. and... it worked out well. Pilsner is such a simple recipe but at the same time, there is no where to hide any of your mistakes. So at least for me it's a very intimidating beer to brew.

 

[Jeff...]

I've even thought of using a blanket of CO2 in my MLT.

This thought has also crossed my mind, but only a few days ago. I believe I could pull this off actually. All it would take is a couple more holes in the lid of my Rubbermaid 10 gallon cooler mashtun. One to purge O and one to add CO2. I might need to make a gasket for the lid, if I we're going to pressurize it. But I don't think I would go anymore than a couple PSI honestly. Has anyone done this before? Am I thinking correctly or am I an accident waiting to happen?

 

[TheMadKing]

I've been doing LODO stuff now for....maybe 2 1/2 years. Your advice above is spot on. People who haven't done it and have doubts should try it and see if they can perceive a difference.

There is one, at least it's been obvious in my own brewing.

However, that's not the end of the story. Whether someone LIKES the result is a different deal entirely. They may not.

I've done a Pilsner with flavor that is like a punch in the mouth of Pilsner flavor. It is impressive, and I took it as a sign that I had conquered much--not all--of the LODO methodology.

But here's the thing: I didn't care for it that much. I have a super-taster friend who thought it was terrific, but me? No. I'm not a huge fan of punch-in-the-mouth pilsner flavor. Pretty much like how I'm not a fan of Belgians. I-just-don't-care-for-the-flavor-that-much.

*****************​

I do a dark lager (Darth Lager!). It's my flagship beer. Done with LODO techniques, the dark flavors overwhelm the flavor palette (yeah, palette, not palate). It just isn't what I wanted, and it's not what made that beer my house beer. Too much....whatever.

I've tried toning down the recipe, reduced the amount of dark malts (choc wheat and choc malt) to relatively small amounts, and it STILL is overwhelming when using LODO stuff.

So I "regressed." I brewed Darth using non-lodo techniques. No pre-boiling. No mash cap. Nothing out of the ordinary. Guess what? It's BACK! The beer I loved, and made over and over again, is back. I still have a half-keg of "Heavy" Darth on tap, but it just doesn't work as well....for me.

But....I've used LODO stuff with an Amber which was magical. So it remains a part of my repertoire, and for good reason.

***************​

I've done this LODO thing long enough now that I can offer some conclusions, based on my own experience and no one else's: there is definitely an effect and at times it's stunning. At other times, it produces a beer that's still....impressive....but one I don't necessarily want to drink.

In the end, people should ignore LODO techniques if it's not their thing, but they also shouldn't dismiss them as a figment of imagination. The result is not a figment.

But really, why should anyone care what I do in brewing? Or you do? My family still loves me. I have beer *I* like on tap. My bank account neither shrinks nor grows based on others' preferences.

And what the heck--it's not that hard to try it and produce discernable results. @bassmann2003 has shown exactly how to do that in the quoted post. You don't need expensive equipment to give it a shot. You may or may not like what it does, but then you can decide if the fiddling is worth the result.

Good luck to all with this, and let's hope we can get back to more civility here.

Everything he said, OP.

I have made several (less than successful) attempts at LODO brewing. It has definitely improved märzen recipe and the process has become part of the recipe within the limitations of my system. But otherwise I have not seen a great change, likely due to being unable to keep my DO low enough. I'm pretty happy with my beers though, they are pleasing to most and I like to think they are above average for homebrew so I don't feel great pressure to make changes other than for the joy of brewing.

That said, I have made many changes to my brewery to decrease oxygen on the cold side, and I am careful on the hot side, but not (shall we say) fully committed. These changes have been nothing but beneficial to all my beers.

Mongoose when do I get to buy you a beer and chat? We seem to agree on too many things

 

[Brewbuzzard]

This thought has also crossed my mind, but only a few days ago. I believe I could pull this off actually. All it would take is a couple more holes in the lid of my Rubbermaid 10 gallon cooler mashtun. One to purge O and one to add CO2. I might need to make a gasket for the lid, if I we're going to pressurize it. But I don't think I would go anymore than a couple PSI honestly. Has anyone done this before? Am I thinking correctly or am I an accident waiting to happen?

I don't think you need a gasket or any pressure. CO2 is heavy and should sink. Also any pressure might add to the chance of a stuck mash.
I also have done several decoction mashes so if you have any questions I should be able to help. Now I Know this might fly in the face of LODO but it does add so much malty goodness plus aiding in clarity, etc.

 

[Jeff...]

I don't think you need a gasket or any pressure. CO2 is heavy and should sink. Also any pressure might add to the chance of a stuck mash.
I also have done several decoction mashes so if you have any questions I should be able to help. Now I Know this might fly in the face of LODO but it does add so much malty goodness plus aiding in clarity, etc.

I may take you up on that offer. Thanks

 

[Jeff...]

I don't think you need a gasket or any pressure. CO2 is heavy and should sink. Also any pressure might add to the chance of a stuck mash.
I also have done several decoction mashes so if you have any questions I should be able to help. Now I Know this might fly in the face of LODO but it does add so much malty goodness plus aiding in clarity, etc.

No your right... No need to pressurize MLT. CO2 will displace O since it is heavier. I actually remember this when I was a kid (long time ago).

 

[Bilsch]

This thought has also crossed my mind, but only a few days ago. I believe I could pull this off actually. All it would take is a couple more holes in the lid of my Rubbermaid 10 gallon cooler mashtun. One to purge O and one to add CO2. I might need to make a gasket for the lid, if I we're going to pressurize it. But I don't think I would go anymore than a couple PSI honestly. Has anyone done this before? Am I thinking correctly or am I an accident waiting to happen?

Gas purging your mashtun is more complicated then you'd imagine and somewhat expensive because of the gas consumed in multiple pressure/vacuum cycles. Best to forget about that and just concentrate on the chemical oxygen scavengers. Metabisulfite works wonders.

 

[Bilsch]

I don't think you need a gasket or any pressure. CO2 is heavy and should sink. Also any pressure might add to the chance of a stuck mash.
I also have done several decoction mashes so if you have any questions I should be able to help. Now I Know this might fly in the face of LODO but it does add so much malty goodness plus aiding in clarity, etc.

Unfortunately the CO2 blanket theory is not correct. Gasses are bouncing around their container with great energy and will mix as opposed to settling out based on density. This is good though because if stratification were the case, oxygen breathing inhabitants of the surface of the earth would be dead.

 

[madscientist451]

That's was kind of the first all-grain attempt. Besides I used carmel 80 instead of caramunich or carahell.

The beer you remember from you trip to Germany may (or may not) be using malts that are not available in the US. Some breweries have their own proprietary malts made for them. I'd skip the C-80 and use caramunich.
Try Substituting Weyermann pale malt for the Pilsner. Some say that substituting UK malts like Marris Otter for the pilsner provides a good flavor combination. The floor malted bohemian and the Weyermann Barke malts might also have the flavors you are looking for. I've seen some recipes a combination of pilsner and pale malt or even 99% Barke Munich.
You can also try scaling back your recipe to 4 gallons, ferment in a corny keg with the dip tube shortened and push the beer to a purged keg in a closed transfer and see if that helps.

 

[Robert65]

Unfortunately the CO2 blanket theory is not correct. Gasses are bouncing around their container with great energy and will mix as opposed to settling out based on density. This is good though because if stratification were the case, oxygen breathing inhabitants of the surface of the earth would be dead.

What's more, if you were able to seal and completely gas purge your entire system (which as @Bilsch noted is unnecessary,) you would definitely want to use an inert gas like nitrogen, not CO2, which would go into solution and start messing with your chemistry. This, to me, is truly one of the beauties of doing low oxygen brewing on our scale. A couple of pinches of magic dust and a cheap cake pan, for instance, can do what the big guys need elaborate, costly engineering solutions to accomplish. OTOH, if elaborate engineering is really your bag, be my guest.

 

[passedpawn]

Gas purging your mashtun is more complicated then you'd imagine and somewhat expensive because of the gas consumed in multiple pressure/vacuum cycles. Best to forget about that and just concentrate on the chemical oxygen scavengers. Metabisulfite works wonders.

Which is exactly why brewing on the space station and moon is the next big thing. NoDO. (well, the temperatures and lack of atmospheric pressure present opportunities/challenges, but that's for another topic).

 

[Die_Beerery]

Which is exactly why brewing on the space station and moon is the next big thing. NoDO. (well, the temperatures and lack of atmospheric pressure present opportunities/challenges, but that's for another topic).

While I know this is tongue in cheek, the reality is, many staling mechanisms happen without the presence of oxygen. So, while you can rule out air in this instance, it's only one of the many places you need to not only be conscious of, but be actively mitigating.
Which is another factor that, decoction has fell out of favor.

 

[Bilsch]

Next best to the moon would be a big purged glove box that fits your system. No meta no mashcaps. Man you could stir and splash, hell even use a drill mounted paint mixer as a mash paddle!
I like it.

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

Next best to the moon would be a big purged glove box that fits your system. No meta no mashcaps. Man you could stir and splash, hell even use a drill mounted paint mixer as a mash paddle!
I like it.

And think about the cold side: fermenting, dry hopping, transferring and kegging or bottling in such a bubble...a dream. Wonder why no one of the homebrewing gear manufacturers has thought about such a thing yet. I would buy it immediately if I had the cash and the space and no family and no wife.

 

[Bilsch]

And think about the cold side: fermenting, dry hopping, transferring and kegging or bottling in such a bubble...a dream. Wonder why no one of the homebrewing gear manufacturers has thought about such a thing yet. I would buy it immediately if I had the cash and the space and no family and no wife.

Don't think I haven't thought about it because I already have one of these 200L dewars to bleed into the glove box to hold the purge.

But not counting the one time cost of the glovebox which could be easily built from aluminum panel.. the real kicker is the cost to fill the cylinder every 30 days with an inert gas like N2 or argon, because that is the max time till the liquid gas bleeds away, and you cant stop it. Also the full cylinder weighs 600 lbs. so not easy to send out for refills. Using compressed gas would be 4 times the cost making that even more crazy. So it could be done but in the end, probably cheaper to fly to Munich every couple months for a beer run.

 

[Pappers_]

IMO.. Munich, Pilsner and caramunich or carahell are the only malts you should need to make a good bock. Any more and you just muddy the flavor. The most important ingredient is process.

As with most beers and brewing, I think this is half right - yeast (ingredient) and it's management (process) are the single most important aspect of brewing. This is perhaps even more important for lagers. Tend to yeast and fermentation and you are at least 80 percent to your goal.

 

[Bilsch]

As with most beers and brewing, I think this is half right - yeast (ingredient) and it's management (process) are the single most important aspect of brewing. This is perhaps even more important for lagers. Tend to yeast and fermentation and you are at least 80 percent to your goal.

Totally agree with this. Although I consider yeast health/management part of process.

 

[Jeff...]

I close on a 20 acre farmette the end of June. I'll have my own dedicated winery/brewery and 4 sources of water on the property. A natural spring fed 2 acre pond stocked with fish, a deep ass huge rain water fed cistern, a deep fully functioning well and municipal water, RO filtered.

Wife wants a root/storm cellar right off the bat. I said sure, I'll dig you one no problem, as long as you will share it with my wines & lagers I'm going to dig it out in a north facing hill good 8' x 12' and at least 8' deep. Then lay in drain tile and pour it all in concrete.

 

[Pappers_]

I close on a 20 acre farmette the end of June. I'll have my own dedicated winery/brewery and 4 sources of water on the property. A natural spring fed 2 acre pond stocked with fish, a deep ass huge rain water fed cistern, a deep fully functioning well and municipal water, RO filtered.

Wife wants a root/storm cellar right off the bat. I said sure, I'll dig you one no problem, as long as you will share it with my wines & lagers I'm going to dig it out in a north facing hill good 8' x 12' and at least 8' deep. Then lay in drain tile and pour it all in concrete.

That sounds fantastic!

 

[Jeff...]

That sounds fantastic!

It will be nice...

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

After reading a few of these German brewing and LODO discussions, I felt compelled to write an e-mail to the Faculty of Brewing Sciences and Beverage Technology of TUM at Weihenstephan, in an attempt to see it a bit clearer for myself. They were kind enough to reply. Here in summary what they had to say about the subject:

- HSA is real (no surprises here).

- They would not state it clearly, but you can read between the lines that the usual suspect Bavarian breweries (Weihenstephan & Co.) are not degassing their brewing water. While this is also a possibility for breweries, they said that in most cases structural constructions in the brewhouse are cheaper and sufficient for taking care of HSA.

- These structural constructions and process steps involve e.g. the Vormaischer, filling vessels from below, and specific designs for the stirring elements and pipes. All this is well known to most of you, of course.

Please note that through this post I am not trying to debate against LODO at the homebrewing level. I kind of see the point that if you want to achieve the same low levels of hot-side O2 ingress as those industrial breweries through our minuscule and low-tech setups (with way higher surface-to-volume ratios) you might need to resort to water de-aeration, antioxidants and so forth.

 

[Die_Beerery]

After reading a few of these German brewing and LODO discussions, I felt compelled to write an e-mail to the Faculty of Brewing Sciences and Beverage Technology of TUM at Weihenstephan, in an attempt to see it a bit clearer for myself. They were kind enough to reply. Here in summary what they had to say about the subject:

- HSA is real (no surprises here).

- They would not state it clearly, but you can read between the lines that the usual suspect Bavarian breweries (Weihenstephan & Co.) are not degassing their brewing water. While this is also a possibility for breweries, they said that in most cases structural constructions in the brewhouse are cheaper and sufficient for taking care of HSA.

- These structural constructions and process steps involve e.g. the Vormaischer, filling vessels from below, and specific designs for the stirring elements and pipes. All this is well known to most of you, of course.

Please note that through this post I am not trying to debate against LODO at the homebrewing level. I kind of see the point that if you want to achieve the same low levels of hot-side O2 ingress as those industrial breweries through our minuscule and low-tech setups (with way higher surface-to-volume ratios) you might need to resort to water de-aeration, antioxidants and so forth.

I can say with 110% certainty, they are degassing water at both W locations for a fact. It's common knowledge, hell even SN degases their water, wet mills, and whatnot.. The rest you say is correct.