London ESB - FG at 1.022

[safcraft]

Hi,

I would appreciate some advice, as its only the second time using this yeast.
I made a first batch with the Danstar London ESB yeast that went as planned, but the second one not so much. I knew this yeast was known to under attenuate, but I planned ahead.

Batch 1 - English Bitter
90% Pale + 10% Crystal
Mash : 50C for 20min, 62 for 30min, 67 for 30 min, mash out at 77C.
Fermentation started at 18C, let it rise to 21C for 3 days then lowered to 19C.
FG was 1.016 , my goal was achieved, as I wanted . OG was 1.046
I used 2 packs of YEAST !!

Batch 2 - NEIPA
80% Pale + 6% Wheat + 7% Oats + 7% Carapils
Mash : 50C for 10min, 61 for 30min, 66 for 30 min, mash out at 77C.
Fermentation started at 18C, let it rise to 19C but kept it there for 7 days.
FG is at 1.022 , too high. OG was 1.061
I used only 1 pack of YEAST !!I had nothing else

Maybe I should used 2 packs. Maybe I should let it rise to 21C like the other one.
Now it seems STUCK. What to do?
This is a NEIPA, so LOADS of hops. It is now on the 3rd Dry Hop , each had 60g of hops.
I don't want bottle bombs , but I don't want to DRY the beer with Nottingham or similar.
I don't mind the sweetness because I know the 350g of hops will balance it.

Should I just bottle it? Can I accept 62% attenuation as final ?
Decisions....it is smelling Wonderfull when I open the fermenter to drop more hops on it!

 

[ESBrewer]

These two batches are much the same in terms of attenuation. If you need more attenuation, you should make a more efficient mash or cut down specialty grains. Rousing the yeast and increasing temps could probably give you a point or two. Why use a protein rest in these beers as it will lead to some denaturation of (beta)amylases? Single step would probably make the wort more fermentable than two distinct saccharification steps. You could go with just 60-90mins at 64.0-65.5°C.

For now, I would see how the beer tastes at 1.022 and then make some changes to the next batch if you think that it is beneficial.

 

[safcraft]

You are right...attenuation is similar.
My goal in 2 rests was have a more fermentable wort...you say I did the opposite?
How would you make a 2 step mash with max fermentability?

 

[ESBrewer]

As said, I would not do a two step mash, because single step, given that it is long enough and in the beta range (but high enough to retain a bit of simultaneous alpha activity to produce substrates for beta amylase), can make a highly fermentable wort. The optimum for fermentability would be something like 63-64°C only and maybe for full 2hrs, but I don't think you need to go so far to get it work for you. I don't think you can gain anything with two distinct saccharification steps, the enzymes should really work together, but you should favor the stability of beta and give it more time because beta is a bit slow when the activity of alpha is not at its top. And I also think that the 50°C does no good in this beer, although this is based on solely what I have read and not on what I have done. Usually, rest at this temperature would be for beers that are very high in unmalted things but I don't think this brew is so high in those that you would benefit enough (losing some valuable beta activity all the time).

 

[FVillatoro]

Hi,

I would appreciate some advice, as its only the second time using this yeast.
I made a first batch with the Danstar London ESB yeast that went as planned, but the second one not so much. I knew this yeast was known to under attenuate, but I planned ahead.

Batch 1 - English Bitter
90% Pale + 10% Crystal
Mash : 50C for 20min, 62 for 30min, 67 for 30 min, mash out at 77C.
Fermentation started at 18C, let it rise to 21C for 3 days then lowered to 19C.
FG was 1.016 , my goal was achieved, as I wanted . OG was 1.046
I used 2 packs of YEAST !!

Batch 2 - NEIPA
80% Pale + 6% Wheat + 7% Oats + 7% Carapils
Mash : 50C for 10min, 61 for 30min, 66 for 30 min, mash out at 77C.
Fermentation started at 18C, let it rise to 19C but kept it there for 7 days.
FG is at 1.022 , too high. OG was 1.061
I used only 1 pack of YEAST !!I had nothing else

Maybe I should used 2 packs. Maybe I should let it rise to 21C like the other one.
Now it seems STUCK. What to do?
This is a NEIPA, so LOADS of hops. It is now on the 3rd Dry Hop , each had 60g of hops.
I don't want bottle bombs , but I don't want to DRY the beer with Nottingham or similar.
I don't mind the sweetness because I know the 350g of hops will balance it.

Should I just bottle it? Can I accept 62% attenuation as final ?
Decisions....it is smelling Wonderfull when I open the fermenter to drop more hops on it!

I'm thinking you are talking about the Danstar London ESB dry yeast? If so, you achieved an attenuation of 64% on the bitter and 63% on the NEIPA - this is on target for that yeast.

From experience, I never got past 68% attenuation and that was mashing at 145 and pitching rehydrated yeast per their instructions. All other batches have been 65% with a 145 degree mash.

What you can do , if you want to keep using that yeast, is to start adding sugar to the boil to increase the gravity and the sugar will ferment fully and give you a lower attenuation then going all malt. Many British brewers have been doing this for a long time with yeasts that attenuate low.

 

[ESBrewer]

When u go low with the mash temp, you need more time to obtain the possible benefits in fermentability. If you stick to 1 hr you are actually expected to see a drop in attenuation when temperature goes below the sweet spot of 66°C. A great mistake for a brewer who expects to see more attenuation with low temperature, completely forgetting the second factor from the equation! This is very obvious if you dig in the mashing studies and experiments. Even if you just think what is going on in the tun and how enzymes work (there is not much use for enzymes without their substrates). Most of the brewers who can only see xx% attenuation with certain yeast are mashing for "standard" 1 hrs only, no matter what kind of beer or temperature. Even with this yeast, you can easily spot higher attenuation batches brewed by homebrewers, even if they did not mash especially low. Most of the time they only tell the temperature, no times or anything.. but 65% seems to be an average value for an average 1 hr mash protocol.

 

[safcraft]

Great feedback Thanks !
I love the flavor this yeast has thrown in to the equation on the Bitter so i will be using it again. It is not sweet, its spot on for an ESB.
Also, i do not think i want more attenuation on a 1.050 beer, but if i do a 1.070 i will plan to mash longer and lower like you said so i can achieve below 1.020 FG.

Cheers !

 

[FVillatoro]

When u go low with the mash temp, you need more time to obtain the possible benefits in fermentability. If you stick to 1 hr you are actually expected to see a drop in attenuation when temperature goes below the sweet spot of 66°C. A great mistake for a brewer who expects to see more attenuation with low temperature, completely forgetting the second factor from the equation! This is very obvious if you dig in the mashing studies and experiments. Even if you just think what is going on in the tun and how enzymes work (there is not much use for enzymes without their substrates). Most of the brewers who can only see xx% attenuation with certain yeast are mashing for "standard" 1 hrs only, no matter what kind of beer or temperature. Even with this yeast, you can easily spot higher attenuation batches brewed by homebrewers, even if they did not mash especially low. Most of the time they only tell the temperature, no times or anything.. but 65% seems to be an average value for an average 1 hr mash protocol.

Awesome bit of information! Would you happen to have the links/sources for the sub 66°C mashes requiring longer mashing times to increase fermentability? Sounds like an awesome read!

Thank you

 

[beersk]

I had this happen on a few batches recently, one of them was with this Danstar ESB yeast... I ended up dumping in a teaspoon or more of Amylase Enzyme into the fermenter and made sure to keg them fore they got much below 1.010. Worked out pretty nicely. But I definitely am not sure about using this ESB yeast again, and I have another pack in the fridge. Might try to blend it with S-04 or something for kicks.

 

[FVillatoro]

I had this happen on a few batches recently, one of them was with this Danstar ESB yeast... I ended up dumping in a teaspoon or more of Amylase Enzyme into the fermenter and made sure to keg them fore they got much below 1.010. Worked out pretty nicely. But I definitely am not sure about using this ESB yeast again, and I have another pack in the fridge. Might try to blend it with S-04 or something for kicks.

I blended The Danstar ESB yeast with US-05 at a 50/50 pitch on a 1.070 OG beer mashed at 154 and it attenuated to 75%. The beer formulation was not good (bad recipe) but the attenuation was great.

 

[Iseneye]

Your first brew had the second step just at gelatinazation temperature (62 degrees). Your second brew was below 62 so was a wasted step (you effectively did a 30 minute 66 degree mash).

 

[safcraft]

Your first brew had the second step just at gelatinazation temperature (62 degrees). Your second brew was below 62 so was a wasted step (you effectively did a 30 minute 66 degree mash).

Well, i follow rules that others have studied, probably better than me.

If most barley starch gelatinizes in the 138–145 °F (59–63 °C) range, then the usual range for a single infusion mash 148–162 °F (64–72 °C) should work fine. Obviously, this was something that brewers originally figured out by trial and error.

If you’re looking to brew a dry beer, an initial rest in the 140–145 °F (60–63 °C) will help, but the starch may not be fully gelatinized at that temperature, so a “finishing” rest in the 148–152 °F (64–67 °C) should be employed to finish the mash. (If you want to be doubly sure, employing a mash out — raising the grain bed temperature to around 168 °F (76 °C) — would also be a good idea.)

http://beerandwinejournal.com/starch-v/

 

[Iseneye]

Well, i follow rules that others have studied, probably better than me.

If most barley starch gelatinizes in the 138–145 °F (59–63 °C) range, then the usual range for a single infusion mash 148–162 °F (64–72 °C) should work fine. Obviously, this was something that brewers originally figured out by trial and error.

If you’re looking to brew a dry beer, an initial rest in the 140–145 °F (60–63 °C) will help, but the starch may not be fully gelatinized at that temperature, so a “finishing” rest in the 148–152 °F (64–67 °C) should be employed to finish the mash. (If you want to be doubly sure, employing a mash out — raising the grain bed temperature to around 168 °F (76 °C) — would also be a good idea.)

http://beerandwinejournal.com/starch-v/

Fair enough. I had previously contacted the Malthouse that supplies my grains and they advised gelatinization for their grains is 62 degrees so perhaps took that out of context.

 

[ESBrewer]

For 1 hr mash, have a look at Figure 11 that shows how 66°C gives maximum fermentability. Also notice that something like 62-63°C gives only slightly lower attenuation/fermentability (higher final gravity) values at the 60min time point. On top of the figure, Kai Troester makes an essential side note that is not shown by this specific time series:

Note that all experiments were done as 60 min mashes and that the lower efficiency at the lower mash temps can be accounted for by mashing for a longer time.

To convince yourself about the effects of time, just have a look at how enzymes work in general and how amylases get deactivated in heat. A simple presentation of the mashing process can be found on his site, too. Especially pay attention to how enzymes work and how their activity is regulated/limited by heat.

Shortly, enzymes have been studied in detail for centuries and amylases do not differ much from enzymes in general. The hotter the enviroment the shorter the time needed to denature and inactivate the enzymes (even a few degrees can mean a lot when we get near certain temperature where the three dimensional structure of the enzyme gets labile). Practically, you would always get a highly fermentable wort if you give enough time for the mash reaction GIVEN THAT THE ENZYMATIC ACTIVITY COULD BE PRESERVED. The reactions catalyzed by a single amylase molecule tend to be faster at higher temperatures, though, until the enzyme structure gets destroyed by heat. Beta amylase, which is especially critical for the production of fermentable stuff (although not very effective on its own) gets almost completely inactivated in 40-60mins at 66°C (a lot of scientific papers on this) and after that the benefits of going longer at 66°C are somewhat limited. So mashing and especially fermentability (the completeness of the reactions) is a question of balance between stability of amylase enzymes and the reaction rate. If you mash low, reactions tend to be slow, but this way u can considerably extend the time that enzymes remain in stable working conformation. At certain temperature range, where the enzymes remain reasonably active (60-64°C), this is going to pay off long term, given that you don't stop the reactions prematurely by mashing out or boiling the wort yourself.

Now have a look at another figure by Kai, Figure 6 (attenuation part) in this experiment. It shows us that when mashing at 67°C, which is a bit on the high side and beta gets almost inactived in an hour, he is still able to get 2.5% more attenuation by extending mash time from 1 hr to 2 hrs. Also notice that at 72°C (even higher, beta amylase gets inactived very soon and we will practically rely on alpha) the difference between 1 hr and 2 hrs is much less, roughly 1.5% only. Now that we know that beta activity is preserved by mashing low and that beta is very important for the production of fermentables, it is easy to see that the same trend would continue if the experiment is done at, say, 63°C. Between 1hr and 2 hrs, under Kai's conditions we would see an increase in fermentability that would definitely be higher than 2.5%. A linear trend would give us maybe 3.5% more attenuation at 2hrs, but in fact it is expected that gains could be quite a bit higher because at 67°C there will be almost zero beta activity between 1-2hrs but at 63°C the beta activity could be considerably higher, because four degrees can be quite important for the stability of enzymes in general and beta activity is expected to rise exponentially at 1hr mark when we go down in temperatures (just see Kai's explanation on enzymes). And there would be small gains even after 2 hrs.

If you still don't believe that longer times at low temperature are the key to produce more fermentable wort, you should really try it yourself under controlled circumstances (=by not changing grain bill, pH etc., just changing temperature and time only). The effect of time is very obvious because of the nature and behaviour of enzymes in general and there are definitely studies and experiments from breweries etc that have had a look at the time in more detail (even in-depth books have been written on this topic), but the data is here and there and I am not keeping a reference database of scientific mash publications because I just gather all the information in my brain for my personal hobby purposes. Just trying to encourage you to try it yourself instead of disapproving, I could add some common wisdom:

Dave Green in BYO magazine:

One noteworthy aspect to this is that starch molecules can be very long. If you want beta-amylase as your primary starch converter, then your mash will need a long rest in its optimal range. A 1–2 hour rest in the 140–145 °F (60–63 °C) range is, in fact, one way for brewers produce a highly-fermentable wort for drier beers.

From my experience, I only know that using WLP002 I can reach attenuation levels almost 10% higher than the average numbers given by White Labs when mashing just 90mins at around 64°C. Haven't really tried London ESB, but it is obvious that you can get some more by extending mash time, especially if you cut the temperature sligthly.

 

[Miraculix]

Great read, thanks for the detailed information.

Let me add what I read when reading in a German brewing forum.

Those guys almost always do at least two temperature rests, one for the beta, one for the alpha to get the remaining starch into something sweet and then the mash out of course, so actually three steps. Often they do even more... I found it a bit ridiculous tbh , but it looks like it would actually make sense.

The guys there create a highly fermentable wort by either, mashing 2h around 61, as you also suggested, or by mashing half an hour at 61 and then 30-60 min at 66 followed by 20 min or so at 72, alpha only. The first step let's the beta get what it can without losing much of it due to high temp, the second rest brings then the alpha in as well and still keeps the beta from denaturing too early, so it can chew on the longer sugars created by the alpha. Finally the 72 c step is then the point where the alpha can get what is left over but the beta will soon be gone at this temp.

Sounds reasonable to me, but never did a multi temp test.

 

[ESBrewer]

^ I agree that making two steps probably will work just fine, but I do not believe that it is necessary to play around with the temperatures and theories that much. Higher initial temperature will speed up gelatinization and it will help beta to gain more substrate early on (because of initial alpha activity), but two steps will have more beta activity later on. So it is a question of balance again. It is quite obvious that if you mash 30min(61°C)+30min(66°C) you will have more beta activity left after 1 hr than if you mash at 66°C for one hour. Thus, there would definitely be further gains, even using this method, if you would increase the time past 1hr. So if safcraft wants to use two saccharification steps, he could probably do 61+66 or 62+65, or wahtever and just increase the overall saccharification times (and probably leave the protein rest away). So yes, I think it should work, but I rather do a single temperature because it is nice to keep things as simple as possible and it should be enough to reach a certain goal.

 

[Miraculix]

I think the main question remaining is, is beta able to convert the starch into sugar on it's own or does it need the alpha to "pre-chop" the long starch molecules into smaller ones to access it.

I read both, that beta is only able to chop off branches of the starch molecule, but cannot convert the whole thing on its own and I also read that, given enough time, the beta will do the job alone.

Which one is correct? If the beta is not able to do it alone, maybe the alpha is already active enough to pre-chop the starch into pieces at 61c, if it gets enough time.

Some question marks remaining...

 

[ESBrewer]

It is not an on-off situation and alpha is certainly somewhat active at 61°C (and below) for sure, but the reactions take place much slower than in the middle of the "alpha range". In fact, as starch hydrolysis is a spontaneous process there will be some breakdown even without these enzymes, but it will be all too slow to be useful in the absence of enzymes.

 

[Miraculix]

And then of course, gelatinization comes also into play. Is 61 high enough to keep the enzymes fed with starch that is actually available for them to chew on?

I know it is not on off, my question was formulated a bit wrong. It should have been, is there significant alpha activity, significant enough to keep the beta busy at 61?

Or is it not necessary for the alpha to keep the beta busy, because the beta munches on the longer starches itself without the alpha "pre-digestion" being necessary?

So much necessities

 

[safcraft]

Interesting reading, very interesting !
I like the part where not only we are talking about efficiency % when changing mash schedules, but also playing with the attenuation of a particular yeast.
I want to believe that different yeast behave differently . One yeast may need a longer and lower mash in order to decompose the wort in something they can chew on (and as such reach high% attentuation). Other yeasts are probably so hungry and string beasts that whatever the mash schedule, they will chew it all !!
London ESB Yeast from Danstar seems to be "picky" and probably can reach higher attenuation with a 2h mash , i will try that next time !
On the other hand, Nottingham yeast can chew whatever you throw with the same mash schedule.
Saison yeasts even more!

 

[ESBrewer]

Yes it is complicated and impossible to know all the details about what is happening in the mash tun. Fortunately, some very general concepts are enough to make it a beer

As a side note I recently saw a three step approach (high gravity) where mash was 1.5hrs at protein rest or maybe ferulic rest temp + 1.5hrs 60°C + 1.5 hrs ~70°C + mash out if I remember correctly and it resulted in a catastrophically low attenuation. This is probably because much of the beta was killed by the initial rest and the remaining activity did the job so slowly (lack of alpha activity) at 60°C that during the alpha step there was no more beta and alpha harvested just some more unfermentables. This is an example when we see some complicated theories and protocols, then change some critical factors and end up with a big problem. Mashing for 4.5 hrs at any single temperature between 60-66°C would have definitely resulted in much more fermentable outcome...in fact one hour at 66°C would have done it in that case.

 

[Miraculix]

@safcraft
I think the biggest difference between Nottingham and London esb is that Nottingham can metabolize maltotriose and London cannot. Therefore, if you want higher attenuation, you want to lower the maltotriose amount in the wort!

 

[Miraculix]

Yes it is complicated and impossible to know all the details about what is happening in the mash tun. Fortunately, some very general concepts are enough to make it a beer

As a side note I recently saw a three step approach (high gravity) where mash was 1.5hrs at protein rest or maybe ferulic rest temp + 1.5hrs 60°C + 1.5 hrs ~70°C + mash out if I remember correctly and it resulted in a catastrophically low attenuation. This is probably because much of the beta was killed by the initial rest and the remaining activity did the job so slowly (lack of alpha activity) at 60°C that during the alpha step there was no more beta and alpha harvested just some more unfermentables. This is an example when we see some complicated theories and protocols, then change some critical factors and end up with a big problem. Mashing for 4.5 hrs at any single temperature between 60-66°C would have definitely resulted in much more fermentable outcome...in fact one hour at 66°C would have done it in that case.

Good example. I think it shows that beta also gets denatured during lower temps, so it is crucial to optimize the rest lengths accordingly. But.... Why does somebody want to do an hour and a half long protein rest?? Must have been by mistake?

I am also thinking about doing a two step mash with a high alpha step at 72c to get all the starch I can, chilling the mash down to the first step afterwards again and reintroducing about 20% fresh base malt to bring in new beta to chop all those longer sugars created by the higher alpha rest.

Just for curiosity.

 

[safcraft]

I am also thinking about doing a two step mash with a high alpha step at 72c to get all the starch I can, chilling the mash down to the first step afterwards again and reintroducing about 20% fresh base malt to bring in new beta to chop all those longer sugars created by the higher alpha rest.

Just for curiosity.

Now that would be something interesting to chew on.
As a side note, i do not know if i "want" more attenuation out of London ESB all the time. For now, i would say i am happy with 65% for a simple bitter, but not happy if i wish to brew a heavy gravity one.
I think my next strong IPA will be something like 1.080 with a 2h rest at 66C. Then go from there whatever the ESB yeast does with it...

 

[Miraculix]

Now that would be something interesting to chew on.
As a side note, i do not know if i "want" more attenuation out of London ESB all the time. For now, i would say i am happy with 65% for a simple bitter, but not happy if i wish to brew a heavy gravity one.
I think my next strong IPA will be something like 1.080 with a 2h rest at 66C. Then go from there whatever the ESB yeast does with it...

No. Don't do that. You either do half an hour at 61 and then 40 min at 66, or you do 2h at 61.

2h at 66 would destroy the beta within the first hour and you would be left with slow working alpha.

 

[Miraculix]

Now that would be something interesting to chew on.
As a side note, i do not know if i "want" more attenuation out of London ESB all the time. For now, i would say i am happy with 65% for a simple bitter, but not happy if i wish to brew a heavy gravity one.
I think my next strong IPA will be something like 1.080 with a 2h rest at 66C. Then go from there whatever the ESB yeast does with it...

Oh, and just to add, I also really like the esters of this yeast. I brewed a historic ipa with it which was really really nice. Didn't measure fg though, still have a few.bottles, will do this on Sunday.

 

[safcraft]

No. Don't do that. You either do half an hour at 61 and then 40 min at 66, or you do 2h at 61.

2h at 66 would destroy the beta within the first hour and you would be left with slow working alpha.

Noted. I agree the 2h rest at 61. The other mash schedule of 61+66 is already tried , so i can compare.

 

[ESBrewer]

Interesting to see where it ends up with 2 hrs at 61 degrees.

 

[Miraculix]

Interesting to see where it ends up with 2 hrs at 61 degrees.

I agree! I will do three different schedules with the same grain bill and hops next week, maybe I will also use this yeast, if I still have a pack in the fridge, which I should.

 

[beersk]

I blended The Danstar ESB yeast with US-05 at a 50/50 pitch on a 1.070 OG beer mashed at 154 and it attenuated to 75%. The beer formulation was not good (bad recipe) but the attenuation was great.

Oh good idea and glad it worked. I think I will do the same on the next batch I want to use an English yeast for. Thanks for the info. That leads me to wonder if basically the US-05 took over and did all the work.