Local Brewpub kind of sucks...

[Revvy]

Off topic, have any of you been to Mountain Town Station/Brewery in Mt. Pleasant?

http://www.mountaintown.com/Brewery/

Marybeth and I are going to be around ALma College part of Saturday, and I was thinking of maybe checking this place out. I don't know if we'll get to do it, but I'm curious.

 

[mc_eric]

Oh yeah, I used to live in mount pleasant. MTS is OK, but all their beers tasted a bit off to me. It's been quite a while since I've had any though, maybe they've gotten better. I bought a sixer of their wheat beer (Mount Pleasant Brewing co., it's the same beer as mountain town), and I absolutely hated it. Seriously the only time I've had a micro that I thought was completely undrinkable. The other beers are a lot better than that though, but, IMO, not as good as they could be. They do a blackberry stout that's actually quite nice (that might be a seasonal thing, though, but I definitely saw a sixer in the store recently).

Mountain Town does have fantastic food though. If your gonna be in mount pleasant, it'd be worth it to go just for the food alone. Awesome burgers/ribs/brisket sandwich.

 

[HenryHill]

I have seen it work better to slowly work up to the point of judgment or comparison of work by first seeing what is going on-in this case as suggested, a tour of their facility and maybe a look-see at an actual brewday.

From that perspective, you can say what YOU DO, and if he has it in him, he will consider the topic and decide if that is something he should maybe be doing. In other words, present info as YOUR METHOD without any comparison whatsoever, and LET HIM THINK IT'S HIS IDEA TO DO THAT OR NOT.

I've worked with more narcissists than not, and no matter how you couch an idea, there is a built-in denial or refusal, if not outright hostility, to any idea different than theirs. If you sincerely care enough to take the time to try to help the guy make a better beer, than choose carefully the approach style, as good intentions are more often than not unappreciated.

We know what we know by being open-minded and seeking out information, advice and feedback. He hasn't asked you, (or maybe not been given the opportunity to ask you) and as such has maybe shown he doesn't care what you think. He may also think that their isn't someone locally available who could relate to his task, and so feels alone in this. His particular personality is all-important in these efforts.

 

[david_42]

As far as approaching the brewer, it might be worth your time. There was a local brewpub that had 5-6 beers on tap and they all tasted the same and not in a good way. I made some inqueries. I got the brush off (by the way, they brewed AG). Talking to other brewers in the area, they had gotten the same reaction. That place close a couple years ago.

Many brewpubs use extract to avoid the disposal problems associated with spent grain. You can't just dump it into the sewer or make a "7-barrel at a time" compost heap in the parking lot.

 

[Beerrific]

Guys get out of the AG vs Extract Snobbery here, MANY more commercial brewing places use extract than you all might think. Just like some breweries ALSO use dry yeast on this planet.....We wouldn't have access to extract or yeast or malted barely even, if there wasn't FIRST a commercial use for it.

Maybe you call it snobbery, but if I go into a place that calls themselves a brewery, I expect and always assume they are all grain. If I later find out they are not, I kind of curious to why...
Are they just looking to make a quick buck? (there are some really terrible extract 'systems' out there that are only designed for places to make money, not great beer.)
Not enough space?
Working on the capital to expand?
Brewer not experienced enough? (see quick buck reason)
Owners just don't care?

But, if the beer is good, who cares? I will still drink it if it is good. But, in my limited encounters with places that brew extract, I taste the beer (certain syles) and can tell.

IMO, if a brewery hires a brewer and does extract there has to be a reason. Any formally educated or experienced brewer is going to want to be all grain unless there are extenuating circumstances.

To me it is almost like a restaurant shipping in frozen soup or pre-prepared entrees that they dress up on the plate.

A hypothetical:
"Homemade chili for sale"
"Oh, cool, say, what kind of tomato sauce do you use?"
"Oh, we buy this pre-made chili base stuff."
"Oh, what kind of meat do you use."
"This pre-made bagged stuff from Sysco."
"So you just mix that stuff together."
"No man, we add our own special spices and let it simmer for hours. That is what makes it chili."

Might be great chili, who knows. But, why not make it all (within reason) from scratch when you have the facilities to do so?

I know you can go into the whole "brewers buy grain malted," etc. etc. But given that buying an all grain brewpub system is readily accessible in both equipment and know-how to run it, it just seems strange not to.

 

[Homercidal]

Off topic, have any of you been to Mountain Town Station/Brewery in Mt. Pleasant?

http://www.mountaintown.com/Brewery/

Marybeth and I are going to be around ALma College part of Saturday, and I was thinking of maybe checking this place out. I don't know if we'll get to do it, but I'm curious.

I've been to MTS a couple of times and the food is really good. The beer is ok. I haven't had any that were BAD, but only a couple that I thought were better than average.

The production brewery location is a converted building that I think used to be a tire shop or some such. It's a small bar with a brewery in back of the bar. They have overhead doors on the front wall that they can open when it's warm. I think they are open to tours if you get there when they are working. I went right after they opened and as soon as a second wait person came in I got a tour (They needed someone to watch the bar.)

And they are just a bar. The BREWPUB location, Mountain Town Station is a cool place with a train depot built in. Last time we went a train pulled up and people got off and walked right through the eating area because that is the unloading area.

Again, nice food, but average beer IMO. *disclaimer - I have not tried their raspberry beer because that is not my thing, but many people say it's very good.

 

[Shooter]

Last summer I went to visit my parents up north and was excited to go to a local bar that I never knew brewed their own beer. I anxiously ordered the sampler, while my wife sipped on a kriek, she's not a big beer drinker. EVERY one had an off taste, might have been a fermentation issue, but I expect it was due to chlorine/chloramine in the water. At first I thought it might be the lines, but the only taps with the problem were the ones that had the house beer.

Is this a place you wouldn't go back to if they don't improve the beer? If so, what do you have to lose bringing it up? If you do it in the right way and they improve, everyone benefits. If not, well, no loss on your part. In my case, I probably wasn't going to be going back to this place anyway. So, rather than piss anyone off, I just drank my beer and went on my merry way.

 

[Homercidal]

Back to the main topic. I "think", based on the couple of discussions I've had with the brewer, that the restaurant happened to know this guy and wanted him to brew beer for them so they could be a brewpub. I know that they offer tastings and whatnot for beer and wine, and offer some of the best stuff from the area.

But I don't believe the brewer has had any formal brewing education or a lot of experience. He's a microbiology major. I'm not sure how much experience he's had in homebrewing, but I think he was brewing for less than a year before joining on.

I just think that with his setup he could be making much better beer. Cleaner tasting and more to style.

 

[Beerrific]

Sounds to me that they thought it sounded like a cool thing. But did not have or want to spend the money to do it right. Hopefully they can turn it around for they have to shut down and/or sully the restaurant's reputation forever.

IMO, hiring a homebrewer as a brewer is a huge mistake. I know a lot of homebrewers that make great beer and really know what they are doing, but I could not trust them to know how run a brewing operation.

 

[Homercidal]

Last summer I went to visit my parents up north and was excited to go to a local bar that I never knew brewed their own beer. I anxiously ordered the sampler, while my wife sipped on a kriek, she's not a big beer drinker. EVERY one had an off taste, might have been a fermentation issue, but I expect it was due to chlorine/chloramine in the water. At first I thought it might be the lines, but the only taps with the problem were the ones that had the house beer.

Is this a place you wouldn't go back to if they don't improve the beer? If so, what do you have to lose bringing it up? If you do it in the right way and they improve, everyone benefits. If not, well, no loss on your part. In my case, I probably wasn't going to be going back to this place anyway. So, rather than piss anyone off, I just drank my beer and went on my merry way.

You know, it "could" be something in the water. I'm not that familiar with Big Rapids local supply. I am now curious to find out more.

I would likely go back if I were snubbed. My wife likes their food and they do have a good selection of fine Michigan Beers in the bottle. I'd probably even keep trying their beer in the hope that they correct whatever it was that was doing wrong. But if they can improve the beer, I'd probably go more often and would feel that I could recommend them to others. I just can't do that at this time.

And they may be open to comments. The server didn't even mention the Belgian Brown when listing their beers. When I asked about it she said they were not sure if there was something wrong with it. I even got a free sample in order to give my opinion. I am not that familiar with most Belgian styles, so it wasn't until I got my Cream Ale and it had the similar flavor that I thought there was something def wrong with it.

What sucks for them is to have people not saying "This beer tastes funny." Or even if they get a few comments and eventually decide there is something not right, it's a bunch of work and money to try different things to correct it. That is why I think they need some more experienced brewers giving them advice. And I am not sure if the upper management/owners are aware of any issues. For all I know (and I don't), this guy may be trying to hide his problems and won't want someone sticking their nose in. Or maybe he does.

Last thing I want is a job as brewer over there. I just want to improve the beer for the beer's sake.

 

[samc]

A well run business is usually open to comments and critique of the operation. I've often spoke to management about food, drinks & service. Last time I did so they rewarded me with a gift card for dinner for my family. They were more than happy to hear from me about the issues as most people just don't come back rather than complain.

extract vs. ag in a small operation if done properly can insure easily repeatable results at a lower cost due to saved labor/time.

 

[HenryHill]

Still in business.

"This CPA and engineer researched what business would fill a niche needed in Port A. They came up with an affordable family friendly restaurant with beer and pizza and apparently were not wrong."

"Brewery owner, June Petitt, is pictured here with daughter Catie, son Robert and the restaurant greeter.
Catie came all the way from the brewery mecca Milwaukee, Wisconsin, to help with the family business."




https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f19/local-brewpub-just-opened-they-suck-71220/

http://www.portabrewing.com/

http://www.addabrewpub.com/

"A unique feature of our system is that it greatly enhances your food business. If you make your own pizza dough or dinner rolls, our malt and the pure yeast produced from each brew will make your sales soar."

 

[rayg]

So I went to a local brewpub to sample a beer or two while waiting for the kids to finish their dance classes. I've been to this place a couple of times and have never been wowed. This last time I started seriously asking myself why I'm wasting my money on their beer, when they also carry a very nice selection of regional beers (then I asked myself why I'd pay pub prices for something that I could probably buy at the beer store for 1/2 price)!

That's pretty odd: you don't like their beer, or their prices, but you keep
going, and now feel compelled to diss them here. Why not just not go
and forget about it?

Anyway, they had something called a "Belgian Brown", which was described by the brewer once as having all Belgian malts. The waitress thought that he used Belgian yeast as well. I don't know. I felt a slickness on the tongue and it had an odd aroma that I would not associate necessarily with Belgian beers.

It's just a commercial name for their beer. Whether or not it's like a
Belgian ale you had somewhere once is probably irrelevant to them.

Then they had a Cream Ale, which was too heavy, too sweet, and too strong IMO.

AHBA standards are completely arbitrary and are based on what were
originally brand names anyway. I can imagine any malty/sweet ale
including dark ales being called "cream ales" by brewers.

Not to mention the fact that what doesn't taste good to you may be
great for others. They'll go out of business soon enough if their product
is that bad.

They brew in 20 gallon boil kettle and ferment in 40 gallon fermenters, IIRC. They brew extract.

Maybe I'm becoming a bit of a snob, but IMO it should not be too hard to hit SG using extract, and fermentation control OUGHT to be the most important thing a brewer can focus on (besides sanitation obviously) if they are going to sell their beer. I'm not tasting that in the beer.

If they can't brew a good beer with extract, they won't be able to do it
with all grain, since the extract is exactly the same thing as what you
get out of a mash. In fact, it's probably better since all grain requires
attention to a lot more variables and most beginners don't do well at it.

I know he's talked about some equipment upgrades, but I REALLY want to talk them into going AG. Yes it will add a bit of complexity to their brewing calculations, and some additional time during the brew day, but I honestly think they will get a cleaner tasting beer than what they are doing now.

If it were me, I'd reply: "Sure, if you're willing to pay the salaries of all
those extra man-hours needed to do it."

Ray

 

[Germelli1]

Homer, you a$$hole, I am the brewmaster of this struggling pub and now I am in tears!


just kidding...offer advice and leave it up to them to take it or leave it!

 

[StoutattheDevil]

Get em Revvy!!'

 

[malkore]

Extract only seems expensive until you consider what additional equipment (and space) a brewpub needs to mill, mash, lauter and sparge all that grain.

And then worry about grain dust contaminating the fermenter/bright tanks.

Granite City is another chain restaurant/pub that doesn't do AG, but instead has the wort shipped in and then its fermented on site.

 

[PorterIdontknowher]

Extract only seems expensive until you consider what additional equipment (and space) a brewpub needs to mill, mash, lauter and sparge all that grain.

And another good reason to go Extract... time...

If the person doing the brewing has another role at the restaurant, 3 hours to brew can fit between the tail end of the lunch crowd and the start of the dinner crowd. Add another hour and a half plus for all-grain and that isn't as easy.

Also, time=money. LME is $2 a pound at Morebeer for what would be bulk for a homebrewer but small for a brewery. $0.65/pound for base malt would be reasonable for similar quantities from a similar vendor. At 70% efficiency that's $0.93/pound for somewhat equivalent wort. Say your brewer costs you ONLY $20/hour including benefits. Assume an extra 1.5 hours on a brew day to do all grain. You break even at using 28 pounds of extract.

Now at larger quantities both grain and LME get cheaper, but still if you're a small place with a 1 barrel system, if you're paying someone to brew, extract vs. all grain is (based on the back of the envelope) a close call financially.

 

[passedpawn]

When my wife makes a cake, she starts by opening a box. That's OK by me, but if I go into a cake store I expect them to open a bag of flour.

[ ... Passedpawn dons his flameproof suit ... ]

 

[JNye]

When my wife makes a cake, she starts by opening a box. That's OK by me, but if I go into a cake store I expect them to open a bag of flour.

[ ... Passedpawn dons his flameproof suit ... ]

is a brewery and a brewpub the same? not really, one produces beer explicitly, the other dabbles. certainly some brewpubs are more serious about the beer then others, but there are many that produce beer simply for the hype factor of "brew pub" or "craft beer".

Homer, just make friends with them. It'll all work itself out if you start the relationship off on a positive note.

 

[Homercidal]

That's pretty odd: you don't like their beer, or their prices, but you keep
going, and now feel compelled to diss them here. Why not just not go
and forget about it?

Their beer prices aren't that bad, and I'm not dissing them, just the beer they make, and only because it's not good. The reason I don't want to forget about them is because I have pride in my community and would like to see a local brewpub succeed. Not to mention it's a long drive to anywhere else with craft beer.

It's just a commercial name for their beer. Whether or not it's like a
Belgian ale you had somewhere once is probably irrelevant to them.

I've had many Belgian Ales, and the off flavors I've tasted before were not like the other, this is true. But it's not a commercial name for their beer, it's a description of the style. I don't think the name is the problem. I think the problem is the beer is not right.

AHBA standards are completely arbitrary and are based on what were
originally brand names anyway. I can imagine any malty/sweet ale
including dark ales being called "cream ales" by brewers.

Not to mention the fact that what doesn't taste good to you may be
great for others. They'll go out of business soon enough if their product
is that bad.

To be clear, I'm going by BJCP descriptions. I think it misses on a few points. And you make it sound like I WANT them to go out of business, which is completely untrue. I really want them to succeed.

If they can't brew a good beer with extract, they won't be able to do it
with all grain, since the extract is exactly the same thing as what you
get out of a mash. In fact, it's probably better since all grain requires
attention to a lot more variables and most beginners don't do well at it.



If it were me, I'd reply: "Sure, if you're willing to pay the salaries of all
those extra man-hours needed to do it."

Ray

I agree that AG requires attention to more variables, but it's not that much harder. And I think that brewing AG allows you more freedom to make the wort what you want it to be, instead of having to work around what the extract company has created. They may not be willing to invest in the time and equipment that going to AG entails. I know that is not the root problem. I think that if they modified the extract brewing process they could do much better. I suppose I was speaking about AG too early, since I really don't know what they have for process. For all I know it could be the water, or they are not using their chemicals properly.

As far as man-hours, it would be worth it to spend a couple of more man-hours brewing decent beer, than to continue losing customers, and reputation selling sub-par beer, don't you think?

 

[rayg]

As far as man-hours, it would be worth it to spend a couple of more man-hours brewing decent beer, than to continue losing customers, and reputation selling sub-par beer, don't you think?

Not if the extract has nothing to do with it.

Ray

 

[buzzkill]

Homer, you a$$hole, I am the brewmaster of this struggling pub and now I am in tears!


just kidding...offer advice and leave it up to them to take it or leave it!

now thats some funny $h!t

 

[vandeg]

I've lived in Big Rapids for 4 years (went to Ferris) and recently moved back down to Grand Rapids, I've seen the restaurant there and heard great things about the food but never knew they brewed. Then again it could just be something new.

Back on track, you asked about the water supply, it is all city water. I know Schuberg's next door has it and so do all the Ferris dorms. When I lived in a apartment I was lucky enough to have a filter on the tap, I was brought up on well water and can taste chlorine easily. Though whenever I wanted decent brew in Big Rapids friends would hook me up or go out and buy a 6pk at Grunst Brothers which has the widest variety I've seen in that area.

Though I'm glad to hear that a brew pub opened there, if they had decent brew at a fair price all sorts of students would go there. But I fear that the new Buffalo Wild Wings and the Gate will be a favored due to the cheap light beer and the fact that people up there just drink to get wasted...

 

[HenryHill]

Homer, I totally understand wanting your local brewery to brew fabulous beer and you see that they aren't and know that they probably fairly easily could be; trust me, I feel your pain. I get it. I get it.

My local brewery, which I need not name, used to make fabulous beer and was starting to attract a lot of attention. Then a brewer left, then another, then another. Now the brewer is a kid who just happens to work there, because his dad happens to work there, and his grandfather. He follows the recipes, does what he is supposed to and when there are taste issues, it is always his fault, all for 11 bucks an hour. While no one doesn't make a mistake, most are easily traced to sanitation problems in the cellar department, should they bother to look. But it's easier to blame him and step on his wage at the same time, rather than to find where the issue is and make sure it doesn't happen again. The current brewer is just there for a job now and not happy, and not being paid nearly enough to keep him for long. He has no real incentive to fight the system to make the beer better, for all the head banging on the wall he could do, the owner is consistently lessening the grain bills, lessening the flavor/aroma additions, and dramatically lessening the dry hopping.

So the owner is his own worst enemy; the morale is as bad as any place could be, and while economic conditions depress pub business and off site sales, the reaction to those issues is an exacerbation of those very issues, with the result a continuing spiral of poor customer experience, and lower sales.

Sure I could say something, sure I could back it up, sure I could present it positively, proactively, and politely, but the fact of the matter is, he don't want to hear, he is never wrong, and I have been thru the 'Who are you to tell me how to run my business' when I was younger, and I figure I am not the going to be the one ever again, unless I'm asked, and even then I'll have to consider it for a long, long time. It's the proverbial 'stepping on his own dikk'. The bottom line is that the guy-in-charge's personality filter's thru-out the whole place; either that personality allows a culture of constant improvement or one of constant obedience; it don't work both ways, and that's all there is to it.

I have gone there and not been happy for a long time, and go less and less, but still having personal ties there, and knowing what the beer once was, I've been optimistic long past any reason to, and am slowly but surely just throwing in the towel and trying not to think about it much anymore.

I get it, dude, I get it.

 

[agroff383]

I'm surprised to hear that a brew pub is making extract beers.

That was also news to me. I assumed anyone selling beer to the general public was doing it with mashing and sparging. This may explain some of the poorly crafted beers I have had around here, then again, one can make a poor beer with regular malts. I would have never assumed that an establishment selling beer would use any kind of extract.

I learn something every time I get on this site!

 

[jordanpace]

I'm just curious where the "extract twang" would fit into this conversation.

Maybe its just a myth, but it has been well documented on this site.

If I were to enter a beer into a competition, I would never make a extract (provided that I have access to all-grain equipment).

Also, I would also expect to to drink all-grain beer in any brewpub. Maybe its just me, but what brewer on this site would open up a brewpub and make extract beers? It seems if you know much about this hobby/profession, all-grain is what we all strive for.

This is just my opinion.

 

[Germelli1]

The "extract twang" has more to do with fermentation temperature control. If you really think about it, most of us start with extract, and in the beginning of our brewing endevours there are many things that we fail to control properly.

Personally, I had an issue with the extract twang with my first 3 batches. I started making starters and controlling my fermentation temperatures and I made a few phenominal batches of beer from extract before switching to all grain. Both of those practices got rid of the twang, and both cut down the stress on the yeast.

 

[rayg]

Maybe its just a myth, but it has been well documented on this site.

Vampires are just a myth, but they've been well-documented all
over the internet.

Ray

 

[user 30639]

The latest issue of BYO had a couple articles about professionals using extract and doing quite well at it. To me, making good beer is less about extract v. all grain and more about using quality ingredients, a good recipe and doing a good job every time you brew.

 

[Revvy]

Just left the Mountain Town Station brewery in Mt Pleasant. The food was phenominal. The beer wasn't bad. I 've had worse. I had an ipa that was decent though not as hoppy as I like and a stout that was reallly good. I had the pork medallians in morell sauce and tasted my gf's chicken marsalla. Both were great.