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I am having trouble locating a 1 PID 2 5500 watt element EBIAB diagram. I believe I originally saw it in this thread... can anyone help me find it? thanks!:rockin:
 
J311gonzo said:
Actually thats not going to work. I need 1 PID that can run both elements at the same time since both will be inside the same vessle. That one will only allow power to one element at a time. thanks though.
Click to expand...

Just wire both elements in parallel to one SSR connected to the PID. The SSR has to be rated to handle twice as much current as for a single element.

Brew on :mug:
 
Question on pid control. I am using a design similar to the 30 a single element pid and when the pid is showing no power out, I am still getting power to the element. I have also checked this with a voltage meter and it reads 240. Any suggestions on what is causing this? Have gained a lot of knowledge from this forum, just can't figure this one out. Any help would be appreciated. 
 
jblockbrew said:
Question on pid control. I am using a design similar to the 30 a single element pid and when the pid is showing no power out, I am still getting power to the element. I have also checked this with a voltage meter and it reads 240. Any suggestions on what is causing this? Have gained a lot of knowledge from this forum, just can't figure this one out. Any help would be appreciated. 
Click to expand...

It is normal for a solid state relay output to have voltage even when "off". However, no current should be flowing (if it is, your relay is defective). Is your element heating up?
 
schematix said:
It is normal for a solid state relay output to have voltage even when "off". However, no current should be flowing (if it is, your relay is defective). Is your element heating up?
Click to expand...


Yes. The element is heating up. Ordering a new ssr now and will update after installing. Thank you for the response.
 
I would like to thank everyone who contributed to this thread, it has been very helpful and I hope it will continue to be.
I am building a 3 kettle RIMS system with 2 pumps. The elements are 240V 3750W 16A HLT PID Control, 240V 3500W 15A RIMS PID Control, and 240V 5000W 21A Boil Kettle Rheostat Control through a SSVR. I also want to incorporate an On OFF Keyed master switch, E-Stop, and a three position rotary switch to switch between the HLT and BK with the middle position being off.
I am trying to pull different parts from different diagrams. I am just trying to figure out if I am on the right track. Also, if anyone has suggestions about my plan from their experiences. I am going to complete my box from the diagrams below. The first diagram is going to be my primary and I am going to incorporate the items not included in it from the other diagrams. I am going to remove the timer.

I’m going to use the rheostat portion from the second diagram in place of the PID control for the Boil Kettle portion in the first diagram.

I’m going to use the Key master switch from the third diagram in the first.

Auberin-wiring1-a11-RM-SYL-2352-5500w-4.jpg


Auberin-wiring1-a4-4500w-30a-e-stop-3.jpg


modified%20-%20Auberin-wiring1-a11a-RM-SYL-2352-5500w.jpg
 
If the diagram has a total of 4 fuses, I assume I can use 4 individual panel mounted fuse holders with the appropriate sized fuse? Some of the diagrams have 3-4+ so I just want to confirm before I buy enough holders from China...

I havent seen this asked yet, but I haven't gone through all the pages yet...

Thanks!
 
Trillium said:
I was looking for a drawing similar to Kal's electric brewery but I couldn't find one. A couple were close, so I took 3 different PT drawings and mashed them together.
I was going to include an alarm switch in the mash PID, but did'nt have room. I'm pretty sure it's correct, but this is where I add legal ease fine print.

Edit: I updated drawing to include four alarm switches
Click to expand...

This looks very similar to what I will be doing. Has anyone vetted or used this diagram?

30Amp 3 PID controller 2 pump diagram.jpg
 
btbonser said:
This looks very similar to what I will be doing. Has anyone vetted or used this diagram?
Click to expand...
I know this has been covered ad-nauseam in multiple threads, but I will again state (as would any engineer running a UL certified panel shop) that implementing an e-stop by shorting a HOT line to ground (through a resistor to limit current or not) in the way that's been here is not a safe way to do it.

If you do want an e-stop, spend the extra $20 and have the e-stop switch disengage the two HOT lines through a contactor or relay. Use a normally open contactor and the e-stop switch hold the contactor closed while it's pulled out. That's safe.

Kal
 
kal said:
I know this has been covered ad-nauseam in multiple threads, but I will again state (as would any engineer running a UL certified panel shop) that implementing an e-stop by shorting a HOT line to ground (through a resistor to limit current or not) in the way that's been here is not a safe.

If you do want an e-stop, spend the extra $20 and have the e-stop switch disengage the two HOT lines through a contactor or relay. Use a normally open contactor and the e-stop switch hold the contactor closed while it's pulled out. That's safe.

Kal
Click to expand...

i've been thinking about this quite a bit and have yet to come up with a 'smoking gun' that the gfci e-stop method is a code violation or a use of equipment outside of its listing. i'm in the camp of using a contactor instead of a gfci trip but i can't find a fault (ha ha) in the gfci e-stop method, other than my own prejudices.
 
itsnotrequired said:
i've been thinking about this quite a bit and have yet to come up with a 'smoking gun' that the gfci e-stop method is a code violation or a use of equipment outside of its listing. i'm in the camp of using a contactor instead of a gfci trip but i can't find a fault (ha ha) in the gfci e-stop method, other than my own prejudices.
Click to expand...
I'm not a UL code expert but some things come to mind (just going with a common sense approach): You shouldn't purposely shunt current to ground. Ground's there for safety, not for functional use. It also won't work right if the upstream breaker isn't GFI. Building equipment (like a panel like this) that makes the assumption that it has to be GFI projected to work right isn't good. Next time I talk to a UL shop I'll ask for the specifics...

Kal
 
kal said:
I'm not a UL code expert but some things come to mind (just going with a common sense approach): You shouldn't purposely shunt current to ground. Ground's there for safety, not for functional use. It also won't work right if the upstream breaker isn't GFI. Building equipment (like a panel like this) that makes the assumption that it has to be GFI projected to work right isn't good. Next time I talk to a UL shop I'll ask for the specifics...

Kal
Click to expand...

and that's my hangup, the idea of 'purposely' introducing one hazard to mitigate another hazard. it doesn't make sense and in the industrial world there are other means to accomplish the same thing but i can't for the life of me can't find a code section which prohibits the gfci e-stop approach.
 
itsnotrequired said:
and that's my hangup, the idea of 'purposely' introducing one hazard to mitigate another hazard. it doesn't make sense and in the industrial world there are other means to accomplish the same thing but i can't for the life of me can't find a code section which prohibits the gfci e-stop approach.
Click to expand...

IMO, the biggest danger is that when the GFCI fails, you have no estop, and you may not know it.
 
kal said:
I know this has been covered ad-nauseam in multiple threads, but I will again state (as would any engineer running a UL certified panel shop) that implementing an e-stop by shorting a HOT line to ground (through a resistor to limit current or not) in the way that's been here is not a safe way to do it.

If you do want an e-stop, spend the extra $20 and have the e-stop switch disengage the two HOT lines through a contactor or relay. Use a normally open contactor and the e-stop switch hold the contactor closed while it's pulled out. That's safe.

Kal
Click to expand...


I prefer this method for the E-Stop and like the fact that it is a separate way to shut it off if needed other than relying on the breaker. One question, would you use the e-stop as a master switch or should I still instal a keyed switch?
 
jerryk said:
I prefer this method for the E-Stop and like the fact that it is a separate way to shut it off if needed other than relying on the breaker. One question, would you use the e-stop as a master switch or should I still instal a keyed switch?
Click to expand...
I go in the other direction: I don't think an e-stop's needed on a panel to begin with (otherwise I would have installed one). I think an on/off switch is fine. I keyed my on/off switch for added safety but it's not required. Depends on the location/situation.

Kal
 
I didn't bother to put an E-stop on my panel. I didn't see the point since I already have an off switch for the elements, and another for the main power.
 
jeffmeh said:
IMO, the biggest danger is that when the GFCI fails, you have no estop, and you may not know it.
Click to expand...

it is my understanding that if the gfci circuitry fails, the breaker trips and cannot be reset. it won't work at all. regarding the contactor approach, the contacts can weld and won't work on an e-stop press. no way to know either. contact welding is pretty rare though.

to have a 'true' safe e-stop circuit, the panel would need redundant positively-driven contactors with circuit monitoring and fail-safe wiring. those safety-rated contactors are prohibitively expensive and really aren't practical for a home brew panel.
 
Hello all, I am in process of trying to rebuild my propane brewing system and move it on over to e-brewing... I am horrible with electrical theory, but can read diagrams fairly well... Really what I'd like to make happen is something like Nostalgia's control panel that P-J gave him some suggestions on, with only just a couple subtle differences... Is there anyone out there who can hook a brother up with a nice, easy to follow diagram?
 
IrieElephant said:
Hello all, I am in process of trying to rebuild my propane brewing system and move it on over to e-brewing... I am horrible with electrical theory, but can read diagrams fairly well... Really what I'd like to make happen is something like Nostalgia's control panel that P-J gave him some suggestions on, with only just a couple subtle differences... Is there anyone out there who can hook a brother up with a nice, easy to follow diagram?
Click to expand...

Tell me what you want that's different, and I'll try to put something together for you.

Brew on :mug:
 
doug293cz said:
Tell me what you want that's different, and I'll try to put something together for you.

Brew on :mug:
Click to expand...

Excellent, thank you very much!

So basically this is what I'd like to build, I have a HERMS coil already plumbed into my HLT, but I'd still like to have the third PID in the center, just for closer monitoring of temps in my Mash tun.

On the backside of this one he has four outlets turned on and off by the four bottom switches on the front panel. I would have two outlets with front switches for my pumps, and then a single 110v/double usb outlet controlled by the third front switch, that way I could use my phone for timer and music while keeping it charged and also run my "El Cheapo" vent hood.

I wouldn't want that big honking red switch on top either, so the fourth front switch would be replaced with a keyed master on/off.

I'd also leave the lighted kill switches for the elements as they are. Does all that make sense?

View attachment 1450965393747.jpg
 
I missed the Estop discussion but have voiced my opinion (negative) on this approach. Common sense, purposely faulting for safety, etc. are all accurate. I don't think this would be in the code because the code writers would never expect someone to do it!!
 
IrieElephant said:
Excellent, thank you very much!

So basically this is what I'd like to build, I have a HERMS coil already plumbed into my HLT, but I'd still like to have the third PID in the center, just for closer monitoring of temps in my Mash tun.

On the backside of this one he has four outlets turned on and off by the four bottom switches on the front panel. I would have two outlets with front switches for my pumps, and then a single 110v/double usb outlet controlled by the third front switch, that way I could use my phone for timer and music while keeping it charged and also run my "El Cheapo" vent hood.

I wouldn't want that big honking red switch on top either, so the fourth front switch would be replaced with a keyed master on/off.

I'd also leave the lighted kill switches for the elements as they are. Does all that make sense?
Click to expand...
Ok, let me make sure I have all the details correct, and ask some additional questions. You want the following:
  • Two heating elements, one for HLT and one for boil ketlle?
    • HLT element power?
    • BK element power?
    • Do both elements need to be on at same time (for back to back brews)?
  • Three PID's, HLT, MLT, BK?
    • One for HLT driving SSR for element?
    • One for MLT, no SSR, monitoring only?
    • One for BK driving SSR for element?
  • Key operated main power switch?
  • No EPO (emergency power off) switch?
  • Two switched 120V pump outlets?
  • One switched 120V duplex outlet?
  • Safety devices?
    • GFCI protection is assumed external to controller.
    • Individual circuit breakers for each element (if not you will need to use heavier wiring if both elements need to be on at once)?
    • Fuses for PID's, & outlets are assumed. Breakers preferred?
  • Any interlocks?
    • "Safe start" (main power won't come on unless all other switches off)?,
    • Float switches to prevent dry firing the elements?
    • "Panel door open" power off?
    • Other interlocks?
 
doug293cz said:
Ok, let me make sure I have all the details correct, and ask some additional questions. You want the following:
  • Two heating elements, one for HLT and one for boil ketlle?
    • HLT element power?
    • BK element power?
    • Do both elements need to be on at same time (for back to back brews)?
  • Three PID's, HLT, MLT, BK?
    • One for HLT driving SSR for element?
    • One for MLT, no SSR, monitoring only?
    • One for BK driving SSR for element?
  • Key operated main power switch?
  • No EPO (emergency power off) switch?
  • Two switched 120V pump outlets?
  • One switched 120V duplex outlet?
  • Safety devices?
    • GFCI protection is assumed external to controller.
    • Individual circuit breakers for each element (if not you will need to use heavier wiring if both elements need to be on at once)?
    • Fuses for PID's, & outlets are assumed. Breakers preferred?
  • Any interlocks?
    • "Safe start" (main power won't come on unless all other switches off)?,
    • Float switches to prevent dry firing the elements?
    • "Panel door open" power off?
    • Other interlocks?
Click to expand...

First Doug, please accept my sincerest gratitude for spending time on Christmas trying to help me out, it is very, very much appreciated!

So yes, 2 elements, one in HLT and one in BK. Power switches for each. And preferably the ability to have both firing at the same time for back to back batches.

Three PIDs one controlling an SSR for the HLT element, one specifically for monitoring of MLT temps, not controlling anything, and one controlling an SSR for the BK. 120 VAC case fan for additional cooling of SSRs.

Key operated main power switch, no E-stop, one duplex with individually switched outlets for pumps, one duplex with both outlets powered from a single switch.

No particular safety devices. The system will draw power from a 60 amp GFCI in my Main panel fed to a 60 amp spa panel in the brewery area.

Internal breakers for each element, and internal breakers for 110/120 VAC components. Panel mount fuses for PIDs. No interlocks or other safety devices, just the basics lol

A good diagram of how each component attaches to the next and perhaps suggestions of best parts to go with will get me rocking and rolling! Again, I am incredibly thankful for your help with this.
 
IrieElephant: This sounds nearly identical to my 50A back to back design that many have build. I have pictures and wiring diagrams available here.

Good luck!

Kal
 
Does anybody (or P-J, if you're still following this thread ) know what software was used to make these diagrams? Looking back at this thread, I can't find any reference to what software was used. Thanks!
 
daveMN said:
Does anybody (or P-J, if you're still following this thread ) know what software was used to make these diagrams? Looking back at this thread, I can't find any reference to what software was used. Thanks!
Click to expand...


I remember seeing someone say Vizio somewhere... Any Mac users out there know of a good app to do this same thing?
 
kal said:
IrieElephant: This sounds nearly identical to my 50A back to back design that many have build. I have pictures and wiring diagrams available here.

Good luck!

Kal
Click to expand...

Hey Kal, your build was the first of these that I came across, and it truly is what inspired me to go electric, problem is I have built it twice now and just can't seem to get it right... I had my neighbor (an electrician) check and double check my work, but we can't seem to find the problem. Then I built it again using the e-brew panel on the cheap instructable, and still couldn't get it right... So, going to give it another go with a bit of a different layout and hope for the best this time.
 
IrieElephant said:
First Doug, please accept my sincerest gratitude for spending time on Christmas trying to help me out, it is very, very much appreciated!

So yes, 2 elements, one in HLT and one in BK. Power switches for each. And preferably the ability to have both firing at the same time for back to back batches.

Three PIDs one controlling an SSR for the HLT element, one specifically for monitoring of MLT temps, not controlling anything, and one controlling an SSR for the BK. 120 VAC case fan for additional cooling of SSRs.

Key operated main power switch, no E-stop, one duplex with individually switched outlets for pumps, one duplex with both outlets powered from a single switch.

No particular safety devices. The system will draw power from a 60 amp GFCI in my Main panel fed to a 60 amp spa panel in the brewery area.

Internal breakers for each element, and internal breakers for 110/120 VAC components. Panel mount fuses for PIDs. No interlocks or other safety devices, just the basics lol

A good diagram of how each component attaches to the next and perhaps suggestions of best parts to go with will get me rocking and rolling! Again, I am incredibly thankful for your help with this.
Click to expand...

Ok, this should be close to what you are looking for. For a 60 A service, you'll need to feed it with 4 AWG wire, as 6 AWG is only rated for 55 A. On the load side of the 30 A breakers you can use 10 AWG. The load side of the 10 A breakers can use 16 or 18 AWG. After the 1 A fuses, you can use down to 22 AWG if you want.

3-PID 2-Element 2-Pump 2-Aux.jpg

Let me know if you have any questions.
 
doug293cz said:
Ok, this should be close to what you are looking for. For a 60 A service, you'll need to feed it with 4 AWG wire, as 6 AWG is only rated for 55 A. On the load side of the 30 A breakers you can use 10 AWG. The load side of the 10 A breakers can use 16 or 18 AWG. After the 1 A fuses, you can use down to 22 AWG if you want.

View attachment 326197

Let me know if you have any questions.
Click to expand...

That is a work of art! Thanks again Doug, it looks fantastic.
 
So, I've spent considerable time designing my 50a 3 vessel HERMS system, utilizing ebrewsupply.com, electricbrewery.com, these message boards, electricans I work with, etc. all as resources. I think I've got a pretty rock solid design, but want to get some outside perspective on my wiring diagram. Does anybody see any serious or danger design flaws with my diagram? Are there any other forums I should be posting in? Thanks in advance y'all.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8iuS9F-2IT9OUR2Rm9yS3drMG8/view?usp=sharing
 
I'd put a 10A Slo-Blo fuse in the pump circuit so you could wire the pump outlets with 16AWG wire instead of 10AWG. But if you wire the pump outlets with 10AWG, it's ok as is.

Switch #4 is labeled as temp alarm disable, but is actually wired as a timer alarm disable.

As drawn, the switch controlling the main power contactor should be wired with 10AWG wire. By placing a 1 A fuse before the hot line going to the switch, you could wire it with finer, easier to work with, wire.

Other than that, I don't see any problems with the design.

Brew on :mug:
 

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