Hi pot, I'm kettle nice to meet you.
Life of sanitizer
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mcspanner
Well-Known Member
Is there any independent testing or research that doesn't come from either the product manufacturer (who has a vested interest in selling more product whether it's necessary or not) or from non scientific experiential evidence of hobbyists?
In the absence of any independent testing, I'd be inclined to lean in favour of my own experience until I am presented with evidence to suggest that this approach is wrong.
In the absence of any independent testing, I'd be inclined to lean in favour of my own experience until I am presented with evidence to suggest that this approach is wrong.
WOW, this is good to know!! I usually mix up a new batch of sanitizer for every batch I brew.
Specially for when I'm cleaning out my bottles. I'm guessing that this is overkill? "I'm talking about the pink stuff"
Specially for when I'm cleaning out my bottles. I'm guessing that this is overkill? "I'm talking about the pink stuff"
Also add aluminum kettles are worse than stainless steel, fly sparging works better than batch, liquid yeast needs a starter, etc.There should be! Start one now if you want to be father to a massive and controversial thread! You can add sparging above 170, sugar makes beer cidery, and higher OG beers take longer to carbonate just for the fact that they are higher OG
I'm right down the middle on this one. If I mix up a batch of star san when brewing, I will save it for the bottles/keg a couple of weeks later. Then most of it ends up in the carboy washer. I do however like to keep a spray bottle filled with it. Now like a lot of you out there I have the strange urge to spend a fourtune on some stuff and as cheap as possible on something that goes along with it. Like my mom driving 20 miles to use a 20 cent coupon. Getting to the point, It would make sense to use distilled water for mixing up the batch that goes in the spray bottle that sits around for who knows how long. I have DI resin tanks at work. The water would not be steril, the star san would take care of that, but there would be no minerals in it at all.
Any thoughts on making a 1 gallon batch of solution at a time using DI water for use in a spray bottle? I would think it would last like the distilled water would.
Any thoughts on making a 1 gallon batch of solution at a time using DI water for use in a spray bottle? I would think it would last like the distilled water would.
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WilliamShakesbeer
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While I toss the solution that I use for santizing big stuff (buckets,carboys etc), I keep starsan solution in a spray bottle for months. Seems to be working fine.
P.S. - I've heard somewhere that in an open bucket it will keep for many hours, but in a closed bucket (or in my case spray bottle) it will keep for months.
P.S. - I've heard somewhere that in an open bucket it will keep for many hours, but in a closed bucket (or in my case spray bottle) it will keep for months.
I keep mine in 1 gallon Sunny D jugs. Works good for months. If it lasts that long...
TheBrewinator
Well-Known Member
I'm gonna go ahead and trust my experience (both as a brewer and scientist) with keeping it around, and the peer reviewed literature looking at the bactericidal effects of solutions with a pH below 3.0, that cloudiness from an anionic surfactant is not going to hurt its effectiveness to kill bacteria as long as the pH remains below 3.0.
That's the truth of it. Keep PH below 3 & it seems to work just fine. I'm going to use my funnel & coffee filters again today to filter minor stuff out of my starsan solution before using it to bottle today. Darn dog & cat. Now if the darn kitchen sink was empty...
zeg
Well-Known Member
Ok, I can see I'm going to have to follow through on the crazy idea I had in the shower last week. I'm going to get some Petri dishes and some agar and run some tests. It shouldn't be too hard to get results conclusive enough to use in homebrewing contexts, I don't think.
Plan would be something like:
- 2 month-old (maybe older) starsan (hard water, distilled water)
- 2 fresh starsan (hard, distilled)
- 2 no starsan (hard, distilled)
- 2 no application at all
Somehow, inoculate all of these (except for one of the no application) with kitchen / brewery bacteria/yeast, then apply the sanitizer and sit back and let 'em go. The other untouched sample is kept as a control.
I'm not sure of the best ways to do inoculation or application, suggestions welcome. I saw a thread describing someone's test of starsan vs iodophor (I think), that used paper circles soaked in the sanitizer, but they seemed to have some trouble with evaporation. It could be a spritz, but I'm worried that this wouldn't be a good test of surface sanitization since the agar medium isn't really a hard, sanitizable surface.
Plan would be something like:
- 2 month-old (maybe older) starsan (hard water, distilled water)
- 2 fresh starsan (hard, distilled)
- 2 no starsan (hard, distilled)
- 2 no application at all
Somehow, inoculate all of these (except for one of the no application) with kitchen / brewery bacteria/yeast, then apply the sanitizer and sit back and let 'em go. The other untouched sample is kept as a control.
I'm not sure of the best ways to do inoculation or application, suggestions welcome. I saw a thread describing someone's test of starsan vs iodophor (I think), that used paper circles soaked in the sanitizer, but they seemed to have some trouble with evaporation. It could be a spritz, but I'm worried that this wouldn't be a good test of surface sanitization since the agar medium isn't really a hard, sanitizable surface.
jesserizzo
Well-Known Member
Love this idea, I've also been kicking it around in my head for a while. For inoculating the samples, how about just rubbing them on the kitchen counter, or even better, a used dish washing sponge.
As for the agar, that stuff has the consistency of jello, right? I agree that a spray might not be the most effective on that type of surface. I wonder if you could just immerse the samples in starsan, or if they would dissolve.
Easily_Distracted
Well-Known Member
I'm wondering this also. I just inherited an almost full bottle but I noticed tha manufacture date was 2009.
Nice test, I saw a 6 week test on youtube with a number of different test batches but that test was just measuring PH and in all the samples the PH stayed close to 3 for the entire time.
I like the idea of actually testing effectiveness.
I like the idea of actually testing effectiveness.
I bought an 8oz bottle of starsan early last year,like February. I only used about 1/2" out of the bottle,& it's still good. As long as you keep it sealed,it should last a really long time. I use the measure built into the bottle to measure up 3/4's of the way to the quarter ounce mark for 1 gallon of water. Works great & lasts a long time. I'm using 2 .5G vodka jugs (usually for blow offs) with a funnel & coffee filters to filter it out. Keeps the pet dander & grainy srtuff out,& it's a tiny hair less cloudy.
zeg
Well-Known Member
Yeah, I don't think arguments based on pH are fully convincing. At least, they rely on the assumption that some target pH value guarantees efficacy. I'm not a biologist, so I don't know one way or the other, but I think the direct test would eliminate any doubt. That is, assuming it doesn't give equivocal results.
I've been thinking a bit more about inoculation and sanitizer application. Perhaps the best way to do it would be to start with something glass, plastic, or metal---relatively non-porous and similar to the materials we actually use for brewing. Somehow apply bacteria to this, and then sanitize it with a spritzer and let it sit for the recommended contact time (30 or 60 seconds or whatever it is for Star-San). Finally, smear this on the surface of the agar and seal.
I think this would work better than trying to sanitize the inoculated agar, and it fairly well simulates the kind of contact infection we're trying to prevent through sanitization.
I'm thinking a plastic spoon would be a good infection device. I suppose just licking it would probably give a pretty good lacto infection!
I've been thinking a bit more about inoculation and sanitizer application. Perhaps the best way to do it would be to start with something glass, plastic, or metal---relatively non-porous and similar to the materials we actually use for brewing. Somehow apply bacteria to this, and then sanitize it with a spritzer and let it sit for the recommended contact time (30 or 60 seconds or whatever it is for Star-San). Finally, smear this on the surface of the agar and seal.
I think this would work better than trying to sanitize the inoculated agar, and it fairly well simulates the kind of contact infection we're trying to prevent through sanitization.
I'm thinking a plastic spoon would be a good infection device. I suppose just licking it would probably give a pretty good lacto infection!
Papadrone
New Member
Really appreciated the time and effort you put into this. You answered some important questions for me.
Thought I would offer my 2cents worth. I picked up a gallon of Iodine Wound Spray at the farm supply several years ago for $ 11.00 I think. Bought a 1oz ketchup pump and found several used 1 oz pill cups, free frosting buckets from Publics. On brew day I mix 1/4 oz iodine and 2 1/2 gal in the bucket. That lasts through the brew week, sanitizing all the hoses, carboys, and corni kegs, etc. Lets see 1 gal=128 oz x 4= 400 to 500 brew days. Come to think about that, at my age I might want to bequeath whats left to one of my Brew Buddys
mcspanner
Well-Known Member
zeg said:
I'd like to query your rational for that part of your comment if I may. The reason I ask is that lots of cheese making instructions and guides recommend sanitising work surfaces and utensils solely with vinegar. I've always worked on the basis of if its good enough for cheese making then a low ph (I.e acid) will be perfectly suitable to sanitise for beer too. I may be wrong and you might know something I don't so just curious why you are unconvinced by ph arguments?
zeg
Well-Known Member
In general, I don't find them convincing because they make an assumption that I don't know the basis for. It may be that pH < 3 is a guarantee that is sanitizes adequately, but I don't know why, or how much greater than 3 is still low enough to be effective.
It's an indirect argument. It doesn't mean it's wrong, just that it relies on something not being tested. Since the question is something along the lines of, "Does Star-San in condition X kill enough bacteria to prevent infection," the closer you can get to testing whether the Star-San is killing bacteria, the better.
There is a specific statement that I think makes it important to do this test rather than pH. Earlier, the chemist behind Star-San was quoted as saying that the solution must both be at low-pH *and* not be cloudy. That suggests that if it's low-pH but is cloudy, then it won't sanitize. Just testing the pH doesn't address this specific point.
It's an indirect argument. It doesn't mean it's wrong, just that it relies on something not being tested. Since the question is something along the lines of, "Does Star-San in condition X kill enough bacteria to prevent infection," the closer you can get to testing whether the Star-San is killing bacteria, the better.
There is a specific statement that I think makes it important to do this test rather than pH. Earlier, the chemist behind Star-San was quoted as saying that the solution must both be at low-pH *and* not be cloudy. That suggests that if it's low-pH but is cloudy, then it won't sanitize. Just testing the pH doesn't address this specific point.
mcspanner
Well-Known Member
Yeah I agree that actual testing would be great, I'm still skeptical that acidity alone isn't enough to sanitise based on cheese making experience as I mentioned. Ordinary white vinegar tends to be in the range of 2.5-3.5 ph and is adequate.
If I made a product that went cloudy over time and encouraged people to throw that product away when it went cloudy so that they would buy more of my product, then that would make good business sense to me. I'm not saying this is the case but I'm not ruling it out either. Especially when I know that under similar circumstances a substance with a ph in that range is satisfactory to sanitise a bacteria vulnerable process.
I wonder if there are any microbiology undergrads out there that need a project to get their teeth into?
If I made a product that went cloudy over time and encouraged people to throw that product away when it went cloudy so that they would buy more of my product, then that would make good business sense to me. I'm not saying this is the case but I'm not ruling it out either. Especially when I know that under similar circumstances a substance with a ph in that range is satisfactory to sanitise a bacteria vulnerable process.
I wonder if there are any microbiology undergrads out there that need a project to get their teeth into?
zeg
Well-Known Member
Someone with access to an actual bio lab would be in a better position to do this than me. I've figured out how to obtain sterile petri dishes and agar, but I'm not totally sure I'll both sink the money for it and be able to pull off sufficiently clean conditions to avoid total contamination. (Though I guess it'd only be a problem for the control; if everything else grows colonies, that'd answer a lot of questions...)
And, like I said, I just don't know enough about the biology to know whether pH is sufficient to sanitize. It could be that it is, it could be that it isn't, or it could be that it's ok for cheese but not beer, since cheese relies on bacteria rather than yeast, so it is conceivable that it's different opportunistic invaders that one has to worry about. I really don't know.
And, like I said, I just don't know enough about the biology to know whether pH is sufficient to sanitize. It could be that it is, it could be that it isn't, or it could be that it's ok for cheese but not beer, since cheese relies on bacteria rather than yeast, so it is conceivable that it's different opportunistic invaders that one has to worry about. I really don't know.
All I know is,the under 3 PH factor makes my beer safely every time. I filtered my starsan this time right before using it to bottle my first pm pale ale. I'll report back how it turns out in my thread about it. That should help settle things.
bottlebomber
Well-Known Member
We need passedpawn back on the forum he might be into conducting and experiment like this, and he definitely had both the equipment and brains.
he might be into conducting and experiment like this, and he definitely had both the equipment and brains.
Transamguy77
Well-Known Member
Papadrone said:
Your welcome
Pie_Man
Well-Known Member
I disagree that using cloudy Star San is "untested and off label". It has been field tested by many on this forum using pH strips and pH meters to determine that although cloudy, the pH is still within the recommended pH guidelines. In addition, the label on my Star San says nothing about cloudy Star San. I do agree with other comments that Star San is relatively inexpensive; when in doubt, it's best to make a fresh batch.
I don't think it's disingenuous for people to mention there experiences. I'd recommend that any new brewers run their own pH test if they choose to reuse their Star San. Or, simply use a new solution each time they require sanitizer.
I know when I first started using Star San that I watched several youtube videos of people conducting pH tests on cloudy Star San. For example, , I know there are others that better show the affects of longer term storage. Also, from HBT, https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f11/star-san-cloudiness-lab-report-103337/ (just one of several threads on this forum discussing pH tests of cloudy Star San).
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I made my choice based on the science and confirmed tests done by the factory. In my professional life policy, procedure, and accepted use as published by known reliable sources is the only option with no deviations being accepted. So forgive me if what I consider getting lucky a few times by painting even a little outside the lines is not acceptable.
For the record. The statements made by the chemists at the factory were designed as separate criteria. Somewhere in this thread that was lost. If you are following the efficacy testing procedure to the letter you would.
First, measure the PH a reading of <3.0 is within normal limits.
Second, subjectively measure the clarity of your solution. Clear being within normal limits.
If any of those tests produce results outside normal limits the solution would fail and should be discarded.
To ensure that I heard him correctly I listened to the podcasts again. Below are his statements with minimal paraphrasing.
Charley very clearly states several times that with deionized water the chemical will last for months with no issues. The minerals in the water react with the chemical and create a hard water soap. The hard water soap makes the product go cloudy and causes a film similar to that in your bathtub.
He further states that as long as the solution is within normal PH you will continue to sanitize but you will leave behind a film that is not present in clear solution.
For the record. The statements made by the chemists at the factory were designed as separate criteria. Somewhere in this thread that was lost. If you are following the efficacy testing procedure to the letter you would.
First, measure the PH a reading of <3.0 is within normal limits.
Second, subjectively measure the clarity of your solution. Clear being within normal limits.
If any of those tests produce results outside normal limits the solution would fail and should be discarded.
To ensure that I heard him correctly I listened to the podcasts again. Below are his statements with minimal paraphrasing.
Charley very clearly states several times that with deionized water the chemical will last for months with no issues. The minerals in the water react with the chemical and create a hard water soap. The hard water soap makes the product go cloudy and causes a film similar to that in your bathtub.
He further states that as long as the solution is within normal PH you will continue to sanitize but you will leave behind a film that is not present in clear solution.
Ok, one more comment.
Again, my water turns Star-San cloudy immediately, I see nothing on the bottle saying Star San is only effective IF your water is not hard and contains no minerals.
In fact I doubt that the FDA would approve of it as a sanitizer used in restaurants and bars if it had that caveat.
Let the chemist say what he wants, I have to rely on the information printed right on the bottle. If Star San is not effective in hard water because it turns cloudy then that really should be printed on the label and not just mentioned in some obscure podcast.
PS: for the record, I only store small amounts of mixed Star San and only for very short amount of time ( a few days) when I have several samples to take over those days. aside from that I mix fresh for the most part and discard after use, but again, because of my water it turns cloudy right after mixing.
Again, my water turns Star-San cloudy immediately, I see nothing on the bottle saying Star San is only effective IF your water is not hard and contains no minerals.
In fact I doubt that the FDA would approve of it as a sanitizer used in restaurants and bars if it had that caveat.
Let the chemist say what he wants, I have to rely on the information printed right on the bottle. If Star San is not effective in hard water because it turns cloudy then that really should be printed on the label and not just mentioned in some obscure podcast.
PS: for the record, I only store small amounts of mixed Star San and only for very short amount of time ( a few days) when I have several samples to take over those days. aside from that I mix fresh for the most part and discard after use, but again, because of my water it turns cloudy right after mixing.
zeg
Well-Known Member
Good for you.
In my professional life, sometimes the confirmed tests done by the factory are too conservative and don't adequately match the conditions under which the product will be used or the requirements it needs to meet. The factory does not have a monopoly as a reliable source, and most manufacturers and engineers I have worked with do their own testing, even if the specs guarantee it meets a requirement.
It's also worth noting, as others have, that the manufacturer's directions on the package do not make any reference to cloudiness, using distilled water, etc. So it's simply not true that using hard tap water is, "Off label use."
Finally, if you want to belittle the collective experience of the homebrewers here, that's fine. But it isn't going to make their beer suddenly start spoiling.
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