Liberty Peach Berliner Weisse (Sour Mash)

[schmeek]

I might suggest a mashout for this one to save some of the body to balance the acidity. I pitched pure lacto and still feel like I got some Parmesan aroma from the grain. Possibly because I didn't mash any higher than 150F. If you want to pitch fresh grain for bacteria it's your call but I don't think it will be clean. If I do this again I will probably do a mashout, lauter, clean and sanitize my mash tun and do a "kettle sour" in the mash tun without the grain. Probably bring the wort to a boil, cool and pitch wyeast 5335 lacto buchnerii for about 24 hours, and boil as normal from there. BYO did an article recently comparing different lacto and were able to achieve a pH around 3.5 in less than 24 hours with that strain.

 

[barhoc11]

I might suggest a mashout for this one to save some of the body to balance the acidity. I pitched pure lacto and still feel like I got some Parmesan aroma from the grain. Possibly because I didn't mash any higher than 150F. If you want to pitch fresh grain for bacteria it's your call but I don't think it will be clean. If I do this again I will probably do a mashout, lauter, clean and sanitize my mash tun and do a "kettle sour" in the mash tun without the grain. Probably bring the wort to a boil, cool and pitch wyeast 5335 lacto buchnerii for about 24 hours, and boil as normal from there. BYO did an article recently comparing different lacto and were able to achieve a pH around 3.5 in less than 24 hours with that strain.

Won't doing this contaminate your equipment?

 

[schmeek]

Kettle and mash tun? You don't need to worry about contaminating those. There's probably going to be something that gets into the wort during the 24 hour sour because mash tuns are covered in bacteria, but I think if I at least clean and sanitize it I will get a cleaner sour

 

[klowneyy]

Are you asking what if your mash tun gets contaminated and all following beers are going to come out in fected or are you asking how to keep the bad bacteria out of your sour?

 

[christyle]

Won't doing this contaminate your equipment?

Nothing will be contaminated in the way that affects your process for future beers as it should all be pre-boil. The way the souring works is that we give the souring bacteria enough time to develop the lactic acid taste and then boil it all to "freeze" the souring process. Your subsequent batches shouldn't have enough contact time to have a noticeable effect unless you leave things in your mash tun longer than a few hours.

The difference in other souring methods is that you are fermenting your end product with bugs, so everything in contact will be in contact with souring (fermenters, transferring devices, bottling/kegging equipment, etc) bugs after you boil.

 

[barhoc11]

So I was just told by my local homebrew guy to be careful while sour mashing because the lacto gets airborne and could contaminate my future brews. Is this true?

 

[christyle]

So I was just told by my local homebrew guy to be careful while sour mashing because the lacto gets airborne and could contaminate my future brews. Is this true?

That's funny....

Lacto is on the grain...so that could happen with any beer......

 

[barhoc11]

That's funny....

Lacto is on the grain...so that could happen with any beer......

So no higher risk when the sour mash is going on? I get what you are saying though. The guy also told me Brett sours beers as well so I wanted to double check with you all.

 

[christyle]

I'm not an expert on sours, so take my advice with a grain of salt, but the sour mash will only risk things if, after a sour mash batch, you mash a normal beer one night, sparge and drain into your kettle and come back the next to do the boil for whatever reason. This gives the sweet wort plenty of contact time with some kind of lacto residing in your mash tun from a prior sour mash. If you do it as normal, which is to say you mash and sparge into a waiting boil kettle, boil, cool and ferment immediately, there is no time for the bacteria to have an affect before you kill them with the boil. I'm not sure what he is saying by it becoming airborne, there are PLENTY of things that could affect a beer if you don't properly sanitize your equipment, not just "airborne lacto" from a prior sour mash.

Again, don't quote me, but Brett gives a little more funk than lacto. Lacto is a very acidic souring, with a little twang. There are multiple strains of "Brett" as well, but it isn't normally known as giving the sourness people think of, that is other bacteria. It often accompanies sour beers it seems, and is lumped into the same category.

Here's a discussion i found on BA:

http://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/brett-vs-sour.27853/

 

[barhoc11]

I'm not an expert on sours, so take my advice with a grain of salt, but the sour mash will only risk things if, after a sour mash batch, you mash a normal beer one night, sparge and drain into your kettle and come back the next to do the boil for whatever reason. This gives the sweet wort plenty of contact time with some kind of lacto residing in your mash tun from a prior sour mash. If you do it as normal, which is to say you mash and sparge into a waiting boil kettle, boil, cool and ferment immediately, there is no time for the bacteria to have an affect before you kill them with the boil. I'm not sure what he is saying by it becoming airborne, there are PLENTY of things that could affect a beer if you don't properly sanitize your equipment, not just "airborne lacto" from a prior sour mash.

Again, don't quote me, but Brett gives a little more funk than lacto. Lacto is a very acidic souring, with a little twang. There are multiple strains of "Brett" as well, but it isn't normally known as giving the sourness people think of, that is other bacteria. It often accompanies sour beers it seems, and is lumped into the same category.

Here's a discussion i found on BA:

http://www.beeradvocate.com/community/threads/brett-vs-sour.27853/

Thanks, that was my understanding but good to get your confirmation

 

[barhoc11]

Are you all trying to get your sour mash up to 168F when you sparge or do you sparge at a different temperature with this process?

 

[christyle]

Just made this again, but with an acid malt mash, and I decided to do the whole mash and sparge before pitching the spike grain. It took awhile to get any sourness, about 3 days. After the boil, the sour seems to all but have dropped out. I'll see how this ends up progressing, but I'm not sure it's going to be sour enough for me. My raspberry version is everyone's favorite beer that I've brewed, so I'll probably be going back to the original method next time, and I might try fermenting with some WLP644 "Brett" to add some funkiness to it.

 

[martyjhuebs]

I just brewed a similar version of this. Same grain bill different hops. It took about 3 days in my cooler with a temperature controller and heat element installed to get a decent sour. I sparged at 176 degrees, added a gallon of water to the boil. I boiled for 10 mins past the hot break. The sour never subsided and wasn't awful smelling at all. It's in the fermenters bubbling away right now. I personally will continue to sour mash for my sour beers. It's an easy and effective way to achieve a good refreshing beer.

View attachment 1441300792461.jpg

 

[christyle]

Just made this again, but with an acid malt mash, and I decided to do the whole mash and sparge before pitching the spike grain. It took awhile to get any sourness, about 3 days. After the boil, the sour seems to all but have dropped out. I'll see how this ends up progressing, but I'm not sure it's going to be sour enough for me. My raspberry version is everyone's favorite beer that I've brewed, so I'll probably be going back to the original method next time, and I might try fermenting with some WLP644 "Brett" to add some funkiness to it.

Ya this one isn't working out... Not nearly as good as the other batches. I think i'll just try the acid malt this time, and not souring the entire kettle, just the mash, leaving the grains in there. I'm all out and need a re-stocking!

 

[davidjgabriel]

Brewed this s few months ago and used white and yellow nectarines instead of peaches. It was creaking amazing and impossible to stop drinking. Needless to say, I make making another batch. I was thinking of adding organic probiotic yogurt to introduce lacto strains. Anyone use this approach? Thoughts?

 

[christyle]

Just brewed again and far prefer the method with the grains left in the mash tun. Don't know why, just worked out a lot better for me. No acid malt, just the normal original recipe. Once completed, I decided to use WLP644 Sacch "Brett Trois" as my primary yeast, and so far it's coming along pretty nicely. I don't know if I let it go long enough, it was about a 4 on the pH scale, but it was that or wait another 4 days to brew, so I went for it, pitched yeast from an old harvested slurry Thurs night and when I checked Sunday it was still cloudy, but already at 1.013. I'll split this between mango and cherry, but it's on track to be good enough as is with no fruit, which has been my original goal since the beginning,

 

[KatoBaggins]

Brewed this s few months ago and used white and yellow nectarines instead of peaches. It was creaking amazing and impossible to stop drinking. Needless to say, I make making another batch. I was thinking of adding organic probiotic yogurt to introduce lacto strains. Anyone use this approach? Thoughts?

As I was reading through this thread, I had the same thought. Did you try it, and if so, how did it turn out?

 

[klowneyy]

Yeah I do a yogurt starter all the time. Make sure its non pasteurize Greek yogurt Greek god and Nancy's yogurt works great. Make a one litter starter of dme with an 1.040 add 2 tablespoons keep heated around 110f no higher than 120f will kill the lactobacillus. Leave for a few days. When doing this make sure to use no hops in the boil kettle only dry hop! Even 1-2 ibu's could make the lacto stall

 

[hartlesj]

It took awhile to get any sourness, about 3 days.

What temp did you hold it at for the 3 days?

 

[christyle]

I don't have a heat pad or anything, so I use my igloo water cooler mash tun, and wrap it in a blanket/sleeping bag. It starts around 120 and by the 3rd day it's usually around 80 or so.

 

[martyjhuebs]

I don't have a heat pad or anything, so I use my igloo water cooler mash tun, and wrap it in a blanket/sleeping bag. It starts around 120 and by the 3rd day it's usually around 80 or so.

I personally would be careful around the 80 degree point. You may end up with bad flavors. The closer you can hold to 110 the easier it will be for you to not only keep out the bad bugs but also accurately replicate the beer.

 

[christyle]

I'm looking at getting a heat pad for it to keep the temps up a little better.

 

[martyjhuebs]

I'm looking at getting a heat pad for it to keep the temps up a little better.

Thats a great idea. If you could spare a cooler, I have a set up that runs about $30. It involves installing a 120v heating element and a MH1210F temp controller.

 

[christyle]

Thats a great idea. If you could spare a cooler, I have a set up that runs about $30. It involves installing a 120v heating element and a MH1210F temp controller.

I think I remember reading about your setup, do you have a link, or are you saying you sell them?

 

[martyjhuebs]

I dont have the link but I bought the single channel controller off of amazon for $16 because it read in Fahrenheit instead of celsius. I got the heating element at home depot for $9 and connected a power cord to it. Drilled a 1 in hole in the bottom of the cooler and installed the element with with a 1 inch PVC fitting to hold in place. Ill see if i can find a picture...

 

[martyjhuebs]

Here's the complete set up in action... it eliminates having to expose the mash to oxygen while maintaining temps...

View attachment 1448988136905.jpg

 

[christyle]

I'd love to see how the bottom setup works without leaking, and what kind of element you used. Does it not get hot enough to scorch anything? Where do you place your temp probe, just through the lid or something?

I have an extra 5gal cooler kicking around I could probably use for this, otherwise, as soon as I move on to a big enough pot, my old pot will be my HLT and my current HLT cooler will be more useless than it currently is.

 

[martyjhuebs]

Ill take a picture when I get home.. around the element I used high temp food grade silicone to seal it, the issue I had was making a 1 inch hole with a 7/8in step bit. I ran the temp probe down the side on the inside between the lid and the cooler. The lid will allow the probe to squish between and still seal properly. The probe should be place level with the heating element so that it turns it off quickly to prevent overheating or scorching. The liquid around the probe will get hotter than 110 but will disipate throughout the cooler. I use a 2 degree variance in my controller.

 

[martyjhuebs]

Heating element assembly

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