LHBS Grain Crush & Efficiency

[incutrav]

I am getting the exact opposite of you, I double crush all my grains at midwest as well and I have been averaging about 78% eff. One batch I hit as high as 85%, was quite surprised at that one, the lowest I have hit with a midwest double crush was 76% (out of the 8 all grain batches I have done).

Interesting. The only other thing I can figure it could be then would be the PH of my water, maybe its super hard and hurting my conversion? I have tried all sorts of different mash in volumes, tried double batch sparges, all have had very little effect on efficency. Ill have to grab some PH strips next time at the store.

Now that i do the math,If my efficency went up to 75% with a mill, it would take me about 40 batches to pay for(3-4 years at the rate I brew). Not worth it to me.

I probably should just not mess with anything, because at least I am consistant!

 

[headfullahops]

I adjusted my recipes to the efficiency I get my LHBS milling and it's only a pound of base malt to make up the difference. I think I will be looking at fermentation temp control and oxygenation before I worry about a mill.

 

[RedHouse]

I am saving well over 50% on my base grain buy getting 50lb sacks instead of buying ten or twelve pounds at a time. Add that savings to the savings of better effiency, and it all adds up very quickly. I figure that the mill will pay for itself in a short time.

Sent from my DROIDX using Home Brew Talk

 

[Golddiggie]

I am saving well over 50% on my base grain buy getting 50lb sacks instead of buying ten or twelve pounds at a time. Add that savings to the savings of better effiency, and it all adds up very quickly. I figure that the mill will pay for itself in a short time.

+5 there... Getting grain at a better rate (group grain buy) will help you easily recover the cost of a mill. I was paying more than double, per pound, when ordering the grain online compared with what I paid for the sacks of grain. At the LHBS, a 55# sack of UK 2 Row was $80... I paid just under $40 (with the freight charges added)... The way I see it, I'll save more than what the grain mill cost me (I picked up a Barley Crusher) in about three sacks of grain. After that, it's all savings...

 

[headfullahops]

I am saving well over 50% on my base grain buy getting 50lb sacks instead of buying ten or twelve pounds at a time. Add that savings to the savings of better effiency, and it all adds up very quickly. I figure that the mill will pay for itself in a short time.

That's a good point. I didn't calculate anything as far as buying in bulk. That would add up quick.
:rockin:

 

[jfowler1]

I am saving well over 50% on my base grain buy getting 50lb sacks instead of buying ten or twelve pounds at a time. Add that savings to the savings of better effiency, and it all adds up very quickly. I figure that the mill will pay for itself in a short time.

Sent from my DROIDX using Home Brew Talk

The savings you see buying in bulk are a given. Sadly, I do not have a very local HBS, and I really can't justify pissing off my wife by going on a 2-1/2 hour car trip on a Sunday morning to save $20 on a sack of grain. If I had a shop in town, this would be a bigger factor for me.

However, I started buying a couple "like" batches worth of base grain (in other words, a couple batches worth of Maris Otter, or domestic 2-row, or pilsner, etc) at a time from Ed at BMW. His shipping terms are beyond fair, and his prices are really solid. I still see value in owning the mill because it allows me to not only use fresher ingredients by buying what I need in the short-run and crushing it when I am ready to brew, but even more valuable - it is a consistent crush. Same mill, (roughly) same speed, every time I brew. It is difficult to build recipes and get your system dialed in if you have someone else crushing your grain for every batch.

So I say even without the bulk sack factor, go for the mill - even if it is just for the sake of consistency, or fresher ingredients, or eliminating a domestic disagreement. All of which are equally valuable.

Joe

 

[headfullahops]

The savings you see buying in bulk are a given. Sadly, I do not have a very local HBS, and I really can't justify pissing off my wife by going on a 2-1/2 hour car trip on a Sunday morning to save $20 on a sack of grain. If I had a shop in town, this would be a bigger factor for me.

I think the post you quoted said that he didn't buy at his LHBS, he ordered online and had it shipped. That would probably be your best option if you have the space to store 50+ # of barley.

 

[ThatGuyRyan]

My local HBS still uses a corona hand mill! Not only that but they want you to grind it yourself! Imaging buying grain for a 10 gallon batch and then being told the mill is in back see you in a few hours! I went and bought a barley mill.

 

[incutrav]

I always buy and mill my grain at Midwest, so no issue with any inconsistencies there. While you do save when buying in bulk, its still 45 bucks that would have to come out of my pocket at once. its a lot easier spending 12-15 bucks a batch on grain. Not always easy to convince my sig. other of the 'big picture savings".

Same thing happened when I recommend we buy 1/2 a cow to 'save money'. We would have saved a bunch in the long run over store bought, but the one time 300 hit negated that deal.

 

[jfowler1]

I think the post you quoted said that he didn't buy at his LHBS, he ordered online and had it shipped. That would probably be your best option if you have the space to store 50+ # of barley.

Hmmmm....I did read again, and did not see anything mentioned by that poster about ordering online. Maybe I missed it.

"I am saving well over 50% on my base grain buy getting 50lb sacks instead of buying ten or twelve pounds at a time. Add that savings to the savings of better effiency, and it all adds up very quickly. I figure that the mill will pay for itself in a short time. Sent from my DROIDX using Home Brew Talk"

Regardless. My point was clearly missed. Let me run some online math for you, because it seems a lesson in economics is in order. Lets look at buying in bulk; be it from a LHBS, online source, or local bulk group buy. This gets a little rant-y, but I think it is important to the theme of this thread, and some people might find the number crunching helpful.

Online
I just checked out a new online supplier fiftypoundsack.com.

http://www.fiftypoundsack.com/products/Briess-2%2dRow.html

They will ship you a 51 pound sack of domestic 2-row, full freight allowed (ie- free shipping) for $66. That is a pretty good deal, and puts you at a cost of $1.29 per pound delivered.

Here is another example.

Morebeer sells their 2-row for $32.25. Great price! Doesn't include shipping!

http://morebeer.com/view_product/17159/102161/Domestic_2-Row_50_lb_Sack

What do you think you are getting charged for shipping? I think $1 per pound is a pretty conservative estimate. Certainly, it would not be cheaper than $.50 per pound ($25) to ship that sack, right? So lets say that morebeer really wants to save you money, and charges $35.25 for the sack and $25 for shipping (which is no where near what you are actually going to be paying for shipping) = $60.25 to your door. That equals $1.21 / lb., delivered. Perhaps someone who has actually paid their outrageous shipping fee for a pack of grain can clarify exactly what they paid. I guarantee it is far more than $25.

Now lets look at BMW (Bremaster's warehouse). Domestic 2-row is $1.15 per pound. That is $57.50 per sack, and I believe their shipping rate is $6.99 flat. Now, maybe you belong to a special club, and get a 10% discount from BMW. That discount brings the price per pound to $1.04, so delivered, it is 1.04 x 50 + 6.99 = $58.99, or $1.18 / pound.

http://www.brewmasterswarehouse.com/product/0101475/briess-2row-brewers-malt

What is the hook? You get the $1.04 price per pound from BMW without having to have 50 lbs of grain rotting in your garage!!!!

So for review.

Buying at 50 lb sacks .com = $1.29/ lb (must buy 50 lbs)
Morebeer = $1.21/ lb (Which is assuming an unreasonably fair shipping rate, and still must buy 50 lbs)
BMW = $1.18 per pound (but you don't have to buy the full sack!)

LHBS
I think my local HBS gets around $40 for a sack (a pretty fair estimate if B3 gets $35 per a sack from their walk in business), but I have to buy a sack. If I just liked the idea of seeing a sack of grain rotting in my garage, I could have bought the thing from Ed at BMW for $59 delivered, or I can spend over two hours to drive to the LHBS in an effort to save $19, $25, $30 (whatever). At $40 / sack, plus 7% sales tax, which I now have to consider, my price is $42.80, or $.86 per pound. Great, but I just dedicated 2 hours of my weekend to save $.32 on a pound of grain. What is your time worth? How much is gas right now by you?

Local Group Bulk Buy
Someone mentioned earlier that they can get sacks of grain in a local group buy delivered for 50% of the prices they were paying online. I believe $80 vs $40 was the example. Lets carry that through for 2-row, because the earlier example was for UK Pale. If you can accept the online base price of ~$60 per sack, that would put a group bulk buy at $30 delivered. Awesome, $.60/lb. The only problem is, you still need to get the buy organized, you still need to go pick up your malt, and you will still have a 50lb sack of grain sitting in your garage for 6 months.

I'll pass on buying the sacks. The savings are not as tremendous as you would think, be it buying a piece of a skid (for $30 a sack) , buying online (for ~$60 / sack), or buying from the LHBS (for ~$40 a sack). I'll take fresh ingredients in the short-run over rotting sacks of grain sitting in my hot garage for 6 months all day. The (at skid price) $.60 / lb savings is not a good enough reason to deal with the stress of group buys, traveling time, or stale ingredients. I'll order from Ed 4-5 times a year, never have to leave my house, pay a fair price for the grain, and keep my ingredients as fresh as possible.

Using my math, and at the best case scenario bulk buy skid price savings of $.60 / lb, used in a 5 gallon batch with an average base grain bill of 10 lbs, comes out to a savings of $6 spread out over 48 beers. That is $.12 per beer. Buy your grain for locally OTC for $40 a sack, and you save $3.2 on a batch, or $.06 / beer. Seems a little silly to me. Organizing group buys, driving around the state on a Saturday, all in the name of saving a nickle on every beer I drink.

So buy the mill for freshness, consistency, and convenience, not just because it could save you a few cents per glass of beer. Let's concentrate on the important things.

That said, any one know of a bulk buy in the NY/NJ/PA area? - j/k

Sorry,
Joe

 

[incutrav]

Good points Above. I pass by 2 of the largest homebrew stores in the country twice a day, so I cant imagine ever buying bulk grain, as I have such easy access to grain and a mill(even w/ crappy efficiency). I guess maybe if you live a long way from a store it could be a good deal to buy bulk, especially if you factor in $4 a gallon gas!

For reference, 2 row at Midwest is 1.15 a lb, a 50lb sack is 42 bucks. So i would save about 15 bucks if I bought bulk, or about 3 bucks a batch. Three more dollars out of my pocket book once a month shouldn't bankrupt me I hope.

 

[Golddiggie]

jfowler1, that's all well and good for using online vendors for domestic grain... BUT, I paid just under $35 (delivered) for a 55# sack of UK 2 Row (Bairds) via the group grain buy a couple of months back. Store it reasonably well, and it easily lasts a year. Since I have a truck, and the delivery location wasn't all that far from where I live (less than a 30 minute drive), that wasn't an issue either. That SAME grain type, from the LHBS, and online sources (where I've sourced it) costs $80...

I made room in the kitchen closet for the grain. Pretty soon, I'll be putting it into gallon bags (vacuum packed) to ensure freshness for the long term. Plus, it will be easier to grab a couple of 4-5# bags of grain for a batch, instead of the full sack. I figure if I get the bag rolls for the sealer, I'll be able to get 5# into each bag, making it even easier for me. Plus, I'll have the benefits of having them vacuum packed. My brew buddy has offered to let me store my grain in his basement (pretty much 66F year round)... I might take him up on that in a couple of months. Or I'll just store them at home, and take what I need for each brew day...

Personally, I would check your grain buying options before making a largish purchase. Before getting my BC, I would get enough base malt for the next 2-3 batches, so that it would still be fresh when I went to use the last of it. Since getting my BC, though, I have the option of getting a more solid supply on hand. This gives me greater flexibility with what I want to brew. If I'm ordering the grain online (getting specialty grains, not base malt here) then I get a decent amount (usually 4-5# so that I have more for later, plus the rate per pound is usually better when you buy more than one or two pounds).

I do like to purchase items from local sources, when possible and they're not charging me more than I can get it delivered for. But, I'm not about to pay over double what I can get the same item for just by planning a little bit ahead of time. I do hope that we can get the group grain buys to happen about once a year... That way, I can get my base malt at one shot, and not need to worry about supplies arriving in time for a batch...

 

[jfowler1]

jfowler1, that's all well and good for using online vendors for domestic grain... BUT, I paid just under $35 (delivered) for a 55# sack of UK 2 Row (Bairds) via the group grain buy a couple of months back. Store it reasonably well, and it easily lasts a year. Since I have a truck, and the delivery location wasn't all that far from where I live (less than a 30 minute drive), that wasn't an issue either. That SAME grain type, from the LHBS, and online sources (where I've sourced it) costs $80...

In the immortal words of Revvy....

"Slams head against wall."

Let me break this down for you.

If your LHBS sells a sack of UK Pale for $80; awesome. They are providing an availibility of goods and a service, so they can sell for a premium. Read my post here if you need to know why the LHBS is justified in charging that price.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f12/direct-grain-purchase-interesting-correspondance-236070/index4.html

If the guy running the group buy runs off with your $35, and brewday arrives, you will need to go the the LHBS and pay $80 for the sack of grain. You will be paying $1.60 per pound, plus driving time, gas costs, tax, whatever.

Lets look at BMW for UK Pale.

http://www.brewmasterswarehouse.com/product/0101465/crisp-maris-otter

85.25 for a 55 lb sack. Factor in the 10% discount, ($74.02) add $7 shipping, and it is 81.02 for the sack, delivered to your door. That is $1.47 per pound. But keep in mind, you don't have to be buying 55 lbs of grain at a time to get this price! And I do not care where you live, Fedex will find you everytime. There is no need to buy and hoard grain, so the, "I don't live near a LHBS so I need to get 50 lbs when I can" arguement is toasted. It is a global economy - the pony express is dead. Don't sweat geography. Also, compared to your LHBS, it is cheaper per lb buying from BMW, no matter how much you buy. You don't need to buy a sack to see the return. This is the hang-up with buying bulk on line, most suppliers are happy to sell grains/lb at a bulk price, but the discount is immidiately offset by the cost to ship. BMW recognizes this dilemma, so they just offer a fair price across the board, no matter how much grain you need. Why advertise a price of $35 / sack, if it costs an additional $50 to ship it. And don't tell me it is for will call customers - that would be a drop in the bucket compared to the number of online customers who visit their site.

Now, Golddiggie, you are able to get in on a local bulk buy, and you can get the same UK pale malt you would have had to pay BMW or your LHBS ~1.50/lb for, you buy for $35 / 55 lb sack, or $.63 / lb.

That is a savings of $.84 cents per pound! Awesome. In a 5 gallon batch, requiring around 10 lbs of base malt, you saved $8.40. That is a whopping $.17 / beer in savings.

However, you are picking up your grain in a truck that probably gets around 18 mpg, with a 30 minute drive and gas at $4 / gallon. You are going to sit there and vacuum seal 55 lbs of bulk grain down into 5 lb bags. How long will that take? Do you have a vacuum sealer or is that an inventment that will go hand in hand with your 55 lb sack? Now you are storing it in your buddy's basement. Are we driving back and forth to your brew buddy's house as well? Again, $4/ gallon in gas, and investment of time. And worst of all, you have to deal with the hassel of getting involved in a group buy. No thanks.

My point here is that there is really a lot of (what is referred to in economics) opportunity cost. You have to see beyond the sticker prices to realize all of the other costs you are incurring by buying in bulk.

IMO, gas, time, stress, up front investment, less-fresh ingredients, - still have more cost to me than is justified in saving $.17 on a glass of beer. Next time you go out to eat, choose a place where you can BYO, instead of buying 2 pints of Sam Adams for $6 each at Applebee's. After one dinner you saved more money than you would on a month's worth of homebrewing and dealing with the hassel of buying in bulk.

Just think about that.

Joe

 

[tesilential]

Joe you bring up some valid points, but most of them involve you living in a desolate wasteland. If you are 2.5 hours away from a home brew store, you should be concerned with moving to a first world country.

E: applebees has 2 for 1's all day everyday

 

[RedHouse]

I think the post you quoted said that he didn't buy at his LHBS, he ordered online and had it shipped. That would probably be your best option if you have the space to store 50+ # of barley.

Nope...I didn't order any full sacks online. I can get a 50lb sack of domestic 2 row from my LHBS for a very good price. I am hoping to get in on a group buy, and save even more.

But, buying in bulk, and having my own mill lets me brew when I want. I'm not pressured to brew just because I bought some crushed grain. It works for me, as others have stated, buying a full sack of grain is not for them....it's all good!

I did recently place an order from BMW for about 30 lbs of specialty grains. They are about the same price as my LHBS grains, but the Wyeast is less than half price, and I needed some other supplies too.

My LHBS is on my way home from work, no loss in gas there. Buying grain has not been a stressful event for me yet, and I don't eat at Applebee's!

 

[Golddiggie]

Joe you bring up some valid points, but most of them involve you living in a desolate wasteland. If you are 2.5 hours away from a home brew store, you should be concerned with moving to a first world country.

+1 there... Although, he IS in NJ...

I second the freedom, and flexibility, you gain from having a solid amount of base malt, and specialty grains, on hand. Plus, having the grain mill/barley crusher means you can mill your grain the same day that you'll be mashing it...

Besides, doing a reasonable job of storing your grain means it will remain fresh (unmilled) for more than long enough. Just make sure you don't buy more than you'll go through in 6-12 months...

 

[Ravenshead]

My LHBS sells 2-row at $1.59 a pound or a 55 lb sack for $45 or $.82 a pound. They'll also let me use their mill when I need it. I plan on buying my base grain this way in the future and using their mill when I buy my specialty grains for each brew.

They're also only about 10 min away and on the way home from work.

Too bad they're also the one with the low efficiency mill I posted about previously. I'm not really dogging on them, they're great guys and I love the convenient location.

 

[jfowler1]

Joe you bring up some valid points, but most of them involve you living in a desolate wasteland. If you are 2.5 hours away from a home brew store, you should be concerned with moving to a first world country.

E: applebees has 2 for 1's all day everyday

Very good.

There are about 5/6 HBS I know of in NJ (I will protect names). The closest one to my house is about a 45-60 minute drive, mainly due to congestion. Besides, it is nothing to write home about. There is also one very close to my work, but deals mainly with wine. Another is on the way home from work, but basically in a restaurant's attic. Ironically, my house is almost centered between the only other two I know of, neither being convenient. NJ is a crowded place, given its proximity to NY,NY, and Philadelphia, PA. Desolate, no; crowded, yes. So yes, it would be about almost a two hour commitment to pick up a sack of grain. Maybe there are some members in my area that can either second my problem or suggest a better solution.

If I lived above a HBS, I would probably be buying in bulk as well. But I don't. The point of my post was that there is still merit to own a mill even if you don't buy in bulk, and in fact, sometimes going out of your way to buy in bulk (which I used to do, and I am sure I wasn't alone) does not have the merits that one would think. I have heard of people driving to another state to pick up grain on a bulk buy. I just wanted to break down the numbers, and show that the price per glass savings really pales in comparison to the benefits of a fresh and consistent crush. Clearly, when someone asks, "should I buy a mill?", everyone jumps in with "yes, you can buy in bulk and save!" The better answer is, "Yes, you can freshly mill your own grain and eliminate recipe variations and peak and valley efficiency from batch to batch! You can also set the mill gap to be ideal for your brew house, instead of some generic catch-all setting from an online supplier or LHBS. Yeah!"

That's all,

Joe