Let's talk S-04 and tartness

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MrSnacks

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It finally happened to me--it felt like I was playing with fire using S-04 but it's so flocculant and convenient dry, and, well, making starters is a pain.

Now I've got a batch of sour foreign export stout (and it's definitely not infected). Yay. So my question is, where the heck does this taste come from? It's really awful.

I won't be using S-04 again, returning to tried and true WLP007. I'm just very curious how this yeast goes so wrong.
 
I've used S-04 several times. There is a small tartness that I've noticed from it when fermenting above 64-65 degrees. If you stay 62 or below, this tartness doesn't seem to show it's face. I've never noticed a big sour component that was in anyway overwhelming though.

Also, from a yeast standpoint, use 2 packs for anything over 1.055, 1.060.
 
I've used S-04 several times. There is a small tartness that I've noticed from it when fermenting above 64-65 degrees. If you stay 62 or below, this tartness doesn't seem to show it's face. I've never noticed a big sour component that was in anyway overwhelming though.

Also, from a yeast standpoint, use 2 packs for anything over 1.055, 1.060.

Yeah, pitching rate and temp are going to be a factor, but I can't think of another yeast that acts like this regardless of those two factors.
 
I've recently brewed a Wee Heavy, Red Ale and English IPA with S-04 and haven't noticed any sourness or tartness I can say is linked to the yeast. I'm pretty sure that all of the UK strains originated from the Whitbread strains, at least according to what I've read.
 
Are you sure the tartness is from the yeast? Since the grains for that stout are kind of acidic, its possible that the wort pH was low. Does your brewing water have low alkalinity? If so, that could be a source of tartness.
 
Are you sure the tartness is from the yeast? Since the grains for that stout are kind of acidic, its possible that the wort pH was low. Does your brewing water have low alkalinity? If so, that could be a source of tartness.

Fairly sure. There was no tartness to the initial gravity samples pre and post boil, and it's been pretty well documented S-04 produces a sour twinge some times. I'm guessing my temps ran away a bit because of how vigorous the fermentation got.
 
It finally happened to me--it felt like I was playing with fire using S-04 but it's so flocculant and convenient dry, and, well, making starters is a pain.

Now I've got a batch of sour foreign export stout (and it's definitely not infected). Yay. So my question is, where the heck does this taste come from? It's really awful.

I won't be using S-04 again, returning to tried and true WLP007. I'm just very curious how this yeast goes so wrong.

I share your opinion on this. I made a dogfish head 90 min clone a couple months ago and split the batch with S-04 and WLP 007. Fermented at 65°F. The S-04 had a weird tart or cloying finish that masked the hops, hard to pinpoint the exact flavor. The WLP 007 shined brilliantly with flavor. Next time I use S-04 I am trying in the low 60's as an experiment and comparing with another liquid british ale yeast.
 
I use it in P, ES and SS specifically for the hint of tartness. Goes well with the roast flavours. Not tried in pale ales.
 
Ya the best thing I ever did for my brews after controlling ferment temps was ditch the dry yeast. I was always really good about rehydrating, and pitching at proper temps etc. but I was always getting slight tartness or 'twang' to my beers. So after brewing for 3 years and 50 batches I finally switched to the liquid yeast, and I will not look back. I will not use dry yeast of any kind anymore...
 
I'm pretty sure that all of the UK strains originated from the Whitbread strains, at least according to what I've read.

That's really not true. S-04 (?), WLP007 and a few others are Whitbread derived, but there are many UK breweries with their own yeast, definitely not from Whitbread sources, and quite a few of those are available from White Labs or WYeast (or Brewlabs for the some of the more obscure ones). There are ones like the Timothy Taylor's yeast (West Yorkshire 1469 or Yorkshire Square WLP037)

My hometown brewery (Harvey and Sons of Lewes) has been using its yeast strain since the 50's, which it got from the John Smith's brewery in Yorkshire after the Burton Pure Yeast company went bankrupt. The Harvey's yeast is available as Brewlabs Sussex I. Now, Whitbread might be somewhere in the history of that yeast, but it's pretty far removed from WLP007 by now.
 
I share your opinion on this. I made a dogfish head 90 min clone a couple months ago and split the batch with S-04 and WLP 007. Fermented at 65°F. The S-04 had a weird tart or cloying finish that masked the hops, hard to pinpoint the exact flavor. The WLP 007 shined brilliantly with flavor. Next time I use S-04 I am trying in the low 60's as an experiment and comparing with another liquid british ale yeast.


The weird thing is, I've made 4-5 batches that were totally successful, one batch of ESB that had an odd twinge to it but I didn't think much, and then this, which might be a drain pour.

Ya the best thing I ever did for my brews after controlling ferment temps was ditch the dry yeast. I was always really good about rehydrating, and pitching at proper temps etc. but I was always getting slight tartness or 'twang' to my beers. So after brewing for 3 years and 50 batches I finally switched to the liquid yeast, and I will not look back. I will not use dry yeast of any kind anymore...

I don't think the problem is dry yeast per se, dry yeast is just yeast, I think it's a problem with S-04.
 
S-04 is a great yeast! Good attenuation, great flocculation, easy to propagate; but I completely agree with those who say to keep it to under 64F or so fermentation temp (at least through krausen drop).

When I first used S-04 in a brown ale, before I had ferm temp control, it just about made me vomit.
Tried it in a brown ale again at ~68F with some rudimentary control, still hated that sour apple twang it gave me.
Got good temp control and tried it again at 65F and it was almost palatable.
Tried it again at 63F and BINGO, totally different (and very enjoyable!) beast.

I now use it in porter, brown, amber, pale, even the occasional IPA, whether "English" or "American"...I just always ferment at 63F or lower with it!
 
That's really not true. S-04 (?), WLP007 and a few others are Whitbread derived, but there are many UK breweries with their own yeast, definitely not from Whitbread sources, and quite a few of those are available from White Labs or WYeast (or Brewlabs for the some of the more obscure ones). There are ones like the Timothy Taylor's yeast (West Yorkshire 1469 or Yorkshire Square WLP037)

My hometown brewery (Harvey and Sons of Lewes) has been using its yeast strain since the 50's, which it got from the John Smith's brewery in Yorkshire after the Burton Pure Yeast company went bankrupt. The Harvey's yeast is available as Brewlabs Sussex I. Now, Whitbread might be somewhere in the history of that yeast, but it's pretty far removed from WLP007 by now.

Can you share the origins with us, if not of Whitbread origins?
 
Fairly sure. There was no tartness to the initial gravity samples pre and post boil, and it's been pretty well documented S-04 produces a sour twinge some times. I'm guessing my temps ran away a bit because of how vigorous the fermentation got.


I was surprised at how much mine ran away (in a ferm freezer, though probe was measuring ambient freezer temp & I would usually set about 6-8 degrees below target ferm temp) - was more or less set for 68*F and the one time I used S-04, it blew up more than anything I'd ever used before (hefeweizen, belgians), and by the time I took a reading after it had calmed down a tad, it was 79*F.


I called the resulting stout our "belgian stout" version. There was a lot going on in it though (2lb chocolate malt, 1lb black barley, lactose, snickers flavoring drops), so the tart fruitiness was somewhat hidden. Still had a few bottles that have been sitting in the fridge for about 3 months, and tried one last week...definitely better.
 
Fairly sure. There was no tartness to the initial gravity samples pre and post boil, and it's been pretty well documented S-04 produces a sour twinge some times. I'm guessing my temps ran away a bit because of how vigorous the fermentation got.

Just checking!

I've noted that S-04 seems to initially taste nice and bready, but it fades into a sharp note as it ages. I'm not sure why that is.
 
:off:

Can you share the origins with us, if not of Whitbread origins?

I can't reliably go further back than 1957 for the Harvey's yeast with what the breweries will tell people - most are protective of their yeast and yeast blends (quite a few aren't have pure single strains). But I think it's safe to say that a yeast strain (and I think it might actually be a blend) that's been in use on a particular set of beers, continuously propagated by top cropping (they do now use Brewlabs as a yeast banking service to maintain quality, but it's not their primary source of yeast) is not the same as the yeast they got from John Smith's. My source for this is the second brewer there, who's the friend of a friend (and responsible for us dodging the two year waiting list for the brewery tour for my stag party, and the early release of a cask of Old Ale for my wedding :) ).

John Smith's almost certainly top cropped the yeast strain before Harvey's obtained it as well. Their yeast would probably have come from the Samuel Smith's brewery next door some decades earlier, although I'm not sure of that as John Smith's went pretty down the BMC route of commercialization, which Sam Smith's didn't. Neither brewery is in anything like the London environment, and both once used Yorkshire squares (Harvey's fermentors are similar square open fermentors as well). So even if the John Smith's yeast was once from Whitbread (which seems very unlikely, as there were tens to hundreds of big breweries closer to John Smith's than Whitbread before the 1950s - the whole of Burton-on-Trent, for a start), it certainly wasn't the same by the time they gave it to Harvey's.

The Timothy Taylor's yeast (West Yorksire, 1469) is a hybrid of John Smith's and Oldham Brewery yeasts, so that's another strain that's out there. Adnam's (probably Southwold Ale, WY1335) is also actually a dual strain. All these yeasts are notably different in beers with very similar recipes. Another brewery I'm familiar with is Milton Brewery just outside Cambridge. They've been going about 20 years, and their yeast is noticeably different to Adnam's, Harvey's etc., and again, continuously propagated in the brewery. They were our source for yeast when me and the friend mentioned above were brewing in college.

TL;DR version: Nearly all older UK breweries have their own yeast strains or dual or triple strain yeasts, and most practise top-cropping or Burton union style yeast propagation, which means the yeasts quickly adapt to their beers and environment. Even the newer breweries quickly develop their yeast strain as they brew with it.

There's this useful map of UK Yeast Strains if you really want to get into it. Note that there's more than one Whitbread yeast, there's the A and B strains, at least.
 
LOL! Browsing the forums while enjoying an ESB and at the last swallow landed on this thread.

Said ESB - as always - fermented with S-04.
And, fwiw, delicious to the last drop.

Old reliable.

Can be a beast if allowed to run amuck (hint: probe the fermenter, not "air" or a bottle of water), but it's an honest yeast...

Cheers!
 
@dyqik thank you for taking the time to research this and for sharing the results! I would love to read an entire book devoted to the ancestry of yeast, its a very interesting subject. Someone put two and two together and realized how a yeast strain that made a great beer could be domesticated to produce consistent results.

Whether that original discovery happened in many places at the same time, like the pyramid building of the Mayans and Egyptians, or the original strain was imported to other towns and countries appears for now to be speculation at best.
 
LOL! Browsing the forums while enjoying an ESB and at the last swallow landed on this thread.

Said ESB - as always - fermented with S-04.
And, fwiw, delicious to the last drop.

Old reliable.

Can be a beast if allowed to run amuck (hint: probe the fermenter, not "air" or a bottle of water), but it's an honest yeast...

Cheers!

Seems like you've lucked out--this a pretty well documented flaw with S-04.
http://www.bear-flavored.com/2012/12/off-flavor-or-infection-diagnosing-my.html
 
Hah. Not a single beer I've brewed with S04 is a drain pour. I use it only in porter/stout and it does develop a gentle tartness after 6 weeks in bottle. But a pleasing vinegar / lemon rind that makes the beer more downable.
 
Did you actually read that through?
Because I don't see anything that substantiates that conclusion....

Cheers!

Did you read the comments? People have posted their brew logs with 70% failure rates. That's a bit extreme but I'm sitting at 2 out of 6 batches with an off tart flavor of a 33% failure rate.

Edit: Many more examples. I'm glad it's worked for you but there's clearly something happening with S-04 if this many people are reporting the same thing.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/s-04-sourness-228758/

Sample comment from that thread:

S-04 is notorious for this flavor. I call it the s04 "twang" as it reminds me of a funky greek yogurt. I don't use s-04 for that reason. Lower ferment temps will reduce it a bit, though I have to sample an s-04 beer that was completely devoid of this character. Some people will tell you it's just part of the yeast flavor or that you had a batch batch and s04 makes a very clean tasting beer. I have a hard time believing that!

Mention of tartness and S-04 here:

http://haydtsbrewing.com/tag/safale-s-04/

More here
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/forum/index.php?topic=13066.0

And here
http://brewnosers.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=6439

Few more here:
http://forum.northernbrewer.com/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=54741

Just keep piling on anecdotes:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/s-04-sour-taste-374520/
 
I used rehydrated S-04 in a HopHands clone recipe fermented at 63 and it was delcious! I pitched slurry into a galaxy hopped pale ale and fermented cool again - another killer beer and even cleaner than the last, maybe the higher pitching rate. I've never used S-04 prior to this because of it's bad rap but we've been enjoying these late hop session pales with it. Drinking the Galaxy now..

IMG_1863.JPG
 
I think S-04 is supposed to be tart. It probably produces more organic acids during fermentation, especially at warmer temps, than other strains. But I don't think it's a flaw, it's just part of the character of that yeast. There are two Whitbread strains commonly available, the A strain and the B strain. S-04 is some version of the B strain which is known to be tart. Wyeast 1098 is also that same strain and my experience shows that 1098 also tends to produce a lot of acids. Although that character isn't specifically mentioned in the description of that yeast, Wyeast kind of hint at its tartness in the description of the 1099 Whitbread strain which is the A variant. To quote: "It is less tart and dry than Wyeast 1098 British Ale". This tells me the B strain (1098 and S-04) is supposed to be tart (not berliner tart but you know what I mean). The other thing that goes against the B strain is it's attenuating power. The one thing in beer that can balance acidity in beer is sugar and B strain ferments so dry that it accentuates it's sharp acidic character.

I don't want to sound like I'm knocking S-04 down because it definitely has an old school British ale character that has many fans, but it definitely isn't the most versatile yeast for English ales which makes me wonder why Fermentis chose it as their flagship English Yeast. I think it works great in a good pale beer with nice rich maris otter, a healthy dose of crystal malts and moderate hopping rates. But I don't think it works as well in darker beers like brown ales, porters and stouts where the acidity contributed by the dark malts just add too much tartness along with the yeast character. Just my two cents on this yeast. Cheers!
 
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I used rehydrated S-04 in a HopHands clone recipe fermented at 63 and it was delcious! I pitched slurry into a galaxy hopped pale ale and fermented cool again - another killer beer and even cleaner than the last, maybe the higher pitching rate. I've never used S-04 prior to this because of it's bad rap but we've been enjoying these late hop session pales with it. Drinking the Galaxy now..

I used 04 in thay same clone. I did the one from Ales of yhe Riverwards.
Great beer, and an excellent choice of yeast.

I dont have anything bad to say about 04. Ive always fermented low and had good results. I dont use it really that often, but it has its place. I am pretty confident on my cold side practices...
 
For what it's worth...

I've used S-04 twice, each time in the dark mild that I like to brew. In the two batches that I used it, there was a noticable "tartness" to the beer that I didn't care for. I usually brew it with Nottingham, it turns out great with that. I brewed each batch around 68f. I decided to stop using it.
 
I dont have anything bad to say about 04. Ive always fermented low and had good results.

That's the key - the Whitbread B family tend to produce lactic acid when they're fermented warm. There's an easy solution to this...
 
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