Let's talk high quality H two O

[Cheesefood]

The article Dude posted brings up a point that I think a lot of us overlook - water as an ingredient. I think that most of us tend to ignore water since it's really the only ingredient that's not "ready-to-go" like malts and hops and even yeast to an extent.

But the more articles I read, the more I'm getting to think that learning more about water prep will get me to the next level of brewing. After all, about 90% of beer is water, right? With that in mind, let's get into details on water prep.

 

[zoebisch01]

I think water makes a huge difference. In fact, I'd like to try Ommegang brewed in Cooperstown vs. Ommegang brewed in belgium to see if I can discern any difference. In general I follow the philosophy of if it works and tastes good, don't mess with it. I think the soundest advice on this I saw in Palmer's book was how many brews evolved to suit the water source rather than trying to make something that the water isn't suited to make.

That all being said, I use my tap water for darker ales as it is higher in bicarbonates and soft spring water from a local source for things like Pils and lighter colored stuff in general. Then again my tap water is well water, not city treated water....so that is what my experience has been.

I know of a local brewer that hates how his hops profiles are because of the water. It is so high in just about everything it is crazy. But his Stout is one of the more consistent and full flavored offerings he has.

 

[Chairman Cheyco]

I have heard that water is one of the easiest things to screw-up. If you want to start building your water, I'd go the start-from-distilled route. It's the only way to be sure about mineral content, and even then you still don't know if you're getting everything you are adding into solution.

 

[zoebisch01]

I have heard that water is one of the easiest things to screw-up. If you want to start building your water, I'd go the start-from-distilled route. It's the only way to be sure about mineral content, and even then you still don't know if you're getting everything you are adding into solution.

The brewer I was talking to treats his water. He mentioned that he was never happy with the hops profiles he gets, so I am guessing I'd have to agree with you and I think that it is a whole-nother-can-o-worms esp. if you have a recipe formulated with a particular water profile. I think it is Westmalle that has very hard water, but makes no attempt to change the water? Play the ball where it lies

 

[Cheesefood]

I have decent water to begin with (Lake Michigan) but it's about a 7.0 ph, and from what I've read it's better to be in the mid-5's. So filtering (since we're highly chlorinated) and buffering is next on my list of improvements.

Rdwj mentioned how big a difference there is in partial vs full boils because of the water, and he mentioned that some of the off-tastes in my brews may be H2O related. I think he's on to something.

We (brewers) take our water at face value, and I think we're neglecting to get the most out of our brews.

I'd love to get opinions from our pro-guys here, like BrewPastor and Chimone.

 

[krispy d]

I love Old Burnside Brewing co in East Hartford, CT. one of the great things they have going for them is they are also an ice company. they have one of the oldest and deepest commercial aquifiers in new england and their water is unbelievable. it's amazing, the taste is incredible. I brew with that on a regular basis. they sell it outside for 25 cents a gallon. Lucky for me the head brewer is my best friend. I don't pay for water (or kegs of beer for that matter!)

 

[paranode]

Certainly no pro but I do use an inline filter that runs through my refrigerator. Water tastes good out of it so I figure it's good for brewing. Come to think of it I probably need to change that out by now.

Maybe a Brita filter would be good if you want to filter it yourself. I seem to recall a web article some time ago about some people that took a Brita filter and cheap vodka and after several filterings they couldn't even taste the difference between the cheap crap and the expensive name-brand stuff.

 

[Chairman Cheyco]

Well water profile and mash pH though related are a bit different. Will I adjust my water to get a proper mash pH? Yes - definitely. Will I adjust my water for the purpose of matching a famous water or building water for a style? Unlikely - unless it is a very obvious flaw in the beer and I have tried everything else.

 

[zoebisch01]

Well water profile and mash pH though related are a bit different.

True, but the thing of it is that once you change one you affect the other. I had a commercial Stout the other day, that I sware I could taste a slight saltiness. I am guessing it was from water adjustments...either that or I am trippin

I agree though, if your pH is really screwed up then it is important. But I think what is considered the best pH can be stretched quite a bit and still produce a great brew. Just don't do something like sour around %25 of your malt, add it to the tun and wonder why conversion takes overnight (pointing the finger at myself). Hehe. I should have mashed it seperately...or something...it was probably converted anyways before I added it lol.

Certain things should be filtered out if you have them. Others though, imho, are what are steering your beer towards one more step of uniqueness.

PS. Chairman, I like your avatar....sheesh I miss that show.

 

[Dude]

I have decent water to begin with (Lake Michigan) but it's about a 7.0 ph, and from what I've read it's better to be in the mid-5's. So filtering (since we're highly chlorinated) and buffering is next on my list of improvements.

Rdwj mentioned how big a difference there is in partial vs full boils because of the water, and he mentioned that some of the off-tastes in my brews may be H2O related. I think he's on to something.

We (brewers) take our water at face value, and I think we're neglecting to get the most out of our brews.

I'd love to get opinions from our pro-guys here, like BrewPastor and Chimone.

7.0 PH water from the tap is totally normal.

However getting that to a PH of 5.2-5.3 is critical in making good beer.

One of my pet peeves about recipes you find is "add 2 tsp gypsum", or something similar to that. So you have some n00b adding gypsum and he totally doesn't have to. It could hurt your beer as much as help it--it all depends on your water profile.

Water is still a mystery to me--even after quite a bit of research on the subject. Because of my water profile, I tend to brew lighter beers (I can go as far as a coppery amber) but anything darker than that (porters, stouts) I get a real harsh bitterness. I've tried treating the water and tasted a soury aftertaste, so completely gave up on treating it. I continue to stick to the lighter beers.

That is how the famous styles came about, Dublin water was great for stout, Burton water was great for pale ales, and Pilsen water was great for light lagers. They didn't brew the other styles because the water profile wasn't working with the other styles.

I have some pretty good water references I will post later.

EDIT: One more thought--any AG brewer who hasn't gotten an analysis of your city water report--you are doing yourself a serious injustice. You NEED to know what is (or isn't) in your water.

 

[Cheesefood]

I bought some 5.2 Stabilizer today (along with some grains and yeast) to see how big a difference it'll make when I brew a hefe either this weekend or next. Anyone have any suggestion for using this product? It says to use 1 tbsp.

 

[Rhoobarb]

I bought some 5.2 Stabilizer today (along with some grains and yeast) to see how big a difference it'll make when I brew a hefe either this weekend or next. Anyone have any suggestion for using this product? It says to use 1 tbsp.

That's what I use in the mash for a 5 gal. brew. I have really hard well water that's high in... well, everything! I usually don't use it if I'm brewing something that calls for really hard water, like IPAs. But I do for most everything else.

 

[zoebisch01]

One of my pet peeves about recipes you find is "add 2 tsp gypsum", or something similar to that. So you have some n00b adding gypsum and he totally doesn't have to. It could hurt your beer as much as help it--it all depends on your water profile.

.

Yeah I feel this way as well. Add Gypsum...what the @()*# for? More of something isn't necessarily better . It should read: "Get an analsysis and IF your water isn't right for this brew....add Gypsum"

 

[jdoiv]

I would love to see some links on this subject. When I lived in LA, the water was fairly hard and I would use lactic acid to adjust the pH of my water. I moved to Nashville and the water is much softer. My first brew I didn't take this into consideration and added the acid to the water. Needless to say, that beer was undrinkable as I pulled way to many tannins from the mash.

I'm still trying to get all the info from my water utility on the makeup of the water. But I also filter the water, so I'm thinking of taking a filtered sample someplace to get tested. I just don't know where yet. Also, I get confused on what water profile is best for what kind of styles. I typically brew Wit's, APA's and IPA's. I'll do one or two stouts or porters a year. So should my IPA/APA water be hard and my stouts be soft or is it the other way round?

I've been using the 5.2 buffer recently, but my mashes are still around 5.6 to 5.8. I think I'll play with adding a tsp of gypsum per 5 gallons of water to try and drop this before I go the acid route again. Anyone have any thoughts on this idea?

 

[Yuri_Rage]

Wow. Just got a copy of my water report. Here's the bad news (I already kinda knew this):

pH 7.67
Magnesium 46.2
Calcium 175.2
Sodium 58.1
Potassium 1.4
Carbonate 0.0
Bicarbonate 136.1
Alkalinity 223.0
Hardness 627.0
(all units are ppm except pH)

REALLY hard water with a relatively high pH. Guess stouts and porters are the way to go for me unless I want to "build" my water from distilled. I've been using bottled RO water up to this point. I'm gonna try an IPA with tap water and some pH 5.2 tomorrow (it doesn't taste too bad...it's just hard). Hopefully the hops aren't too harsh with this crazy hard water profile.

 

[Cheesefood]

Wow. Just got a copy of my water report. Here's the bad news (I already kinda knew this):

pH 7.67
Magnesium 46.2
Calcium 175.2
Sodium 58.1
Potassium 1.4
Carbonate 0.0
Bicarbonate 136.1
Alkalinity 223.0
Hardness 627.0
(all units are ppm except pH)

REALLY hard water with a relatively high pH. Guess stouts and porters are the way to go for me unless I want to "build" my water from distilled. I've been using bottled RO water up to this point. I'm gonna try an IPA with tap water and some pH 5.2 tomorrow (it doesn't taste too bad...it's just hard). Hopefully the hops aren't too harsh with this crazy hard water profile.

ph 7.67? Base! Base! I know my water is around a nice 7.0, which is still not quite favorable for brewing. Hopefully the 5.2 will help out.

 

[Jaybird]

it will help out.... the stuff is GREAT I use 1 1/2 tbls per 10 gallons of H2O it drops my 7.2 ph down to 5.4 but dont forget to add some to your sparge water also. I sometimes forget this and regret it everytime.
JJ

 

[Jaybird]

O ya you can call your water suplier via city or whom ever and they will give you a report for free
JJ

 

[MA_Brewer]

Keep in mind that the pH of your water before you use it (from the tap) isn't all that important - once it is mixed in the mash, then the pH becomes important. I have city water with a high pH, right around 8 or 9. Even without using any buffer, my mash will hit 5.1 or so. City water will have a fairly high pH, but it isn't very strongly buffered, so it doesn't take much to change it. I usually add 1 or 2 tsp of gypsum to the mash for hardness, not to necessarily change the pH.

EDIT: I add gypsum to the kettle, not the mash.

 

[ajf]

Keep in mind that the pH of your water before you use it (from the tap) isn't all that important - once it is mixed in the mash, then the pH becomes important. I have city water with a high pH, right around 8 or 9. Even without using any buffer, my mash will hit 5.1 or so. City water will have a fairly high pH, but it isn't very strongly buffered, so it doesn't take much to change it. I usually add 1 or 2 tsp of gypsum to the mash for hardness, not to necessarily change the pH.

Actually, the pH of the water out of the tap is very important.
Water is delivered in metal pipes. If the pH of the water is below 7.0, then the water is acidic, and it will dissolve the metals in the pipes. That is one reason why city water has a pH above 7.0

-a.

 

[MA_Brewer]

Actually, the pH of the water out of the tap is very important.
Water is delivered in metal pipes. If the pH of the water is below 7.0, then the water is acidic, and it will dissolve the metals in the pipes. That is one reason why city water has a pH above 7.0

-a.

Right - I know - city water is almost always going to be alkaline - but that pH value you get from your town water dept is not all that important. The mash pH is what is important. It seems to me a lot of people are suggesting that becuase their city water report says their water pH is 8, they MUST adjust it, becuase it is too high - I'm trying to point out that that is not necessarily the case. Worry about the mash pH, not what it is coming out of the tap.

 

[clayof2day]

MA is right. Its the mash pH thats important for brewers, not the water pH. That's something Cheese needs to keep in mind too--no tap water will be coming out of the tap at 5.2. Its the buffers in your water and your malt that get you to that range and when they don't you can adjust by acid or minerals to get you in that range. This can all be estimated based on residual alkalinity, you can have tap water with a pH of 8.0 that will mash in to a perfect 5.2 based on your water chemistry and malt profile.

 

[ajf]

I don't dispute that the mash pH is important, but if you have soft acid water with lead pipes, or copper pipes connected with lead solder, or even just copper or iron pipes, that have had water standing in them for a while, then you can poison yourself or get some spectacular off flavors.
Also, the pH of the sparge water can cause excessive tannin extraction if it is too high.

-a.

 

[CAlexander]

I love Old Burnside Brewing co in East Hartford, CT. one of the great things they have going for them is they are also an ice company. they have one of the oldest and deepest commercial aquifiers in new england and their water is unbelievable. it's amazing, the taste is incredible. I brew with that on a regular basis. they sell it outside for 25 cents a gallon. Lucky for me the head brewer is my best friend. I don't pay for water (or kegs of beer for that matter!)

Shamefully, I live in Vernon and have never heard of them! Are they a full brewery? Brewpub? Where can I get the water, or, for that matter, their beer?

 

[cweston]

Palmer and Daniels both have easy to use worksheets/charts for evaluating your water profile and estimating mash pH (and what beer styles best match it.)

Crystals and roasted malts bring the mash pH down, which is why darker beers are best suited to higher pH water and pilsner is best suited to very soft, lower pH water.

 

[grrtt78]

is water as important for extract? do i need to control my ph? what are the parameters for water for different styles? also can i use a pool testing kit to test my tapwater?

 

[megavites]

Sidebar question on water:
I'm using one of the inline filters that can be purchused at Home Depot and the like, with replaceable filters. Primarily, they filter sediment and quote "chlorine"
taste.

question is, if I'm not using the filter for 3 or 4 wks, would you:

1. leave filter full of water to keep saturated

2. empty and air dry.

I'm just worried about mold or something getting started on the filter
after its sat for a while.

 

[zoebisch01]

Sidebar question on water:
I'm using one of the inline filters that can be purchused at Home Depot and the like, with replaceable filters. Primarily, they filter sediment and quote "chlorine"
taste.

question is, if I'm not using the filter for 3 or 4 wks, would you:

1. leave filter full of water to keep saturated

2. empty and air dry.

I'm just worried about mold or something getting started on the filter
after its sat for a while.

I'd go with #1. It should be easier..but that's just a guess.

 

[Bobby_M]

Mold needs a few things to grow; moisture (check), food (nope), air (nope). You'll be fine leaving water in there.

 

[ajf]

Leaving stagnant water in a filter is a sure fire way to grow bacteria in the filter.
Ask your doctor about it. It's a very common way to get intesinal infections.

-a.