Let's Partyyyy(gyle) that is!!!! Pumpkin Porter AND Ale from one mash!?!

[Revvy]

I read this the other day in Radical Brewing, and thought it would be helping when doing parti-gyle batches:

From Radical Brewing by Randy Mosher, pg 201:

"Capping. This is a simple technique traditionally employed to boost the gravity of the third, small beer runnings of a parti-gyle batch. The malt of choice was traditionally amber (biscuit), which works well. Crystal malt works very well for this purpose, as it contains sugars in a soluble form, and requires no further mashing. The 'cap' malt is crushed as normal, then either strewn on the surface or stirred into the upper layer of the mash, allowed to rest fifteen minutes, then run off. This is a good tool for manipulating the character of the smaller beer by adding dark or other colored malts. Crystal works well in this situation as it needs no further mashing and can boost the body, useful for second-running beers."

Hmmm, I just came upon that online as well....not in so much detail, but similar...there is SO little info on this style of brewing. But I appreciate everyone's help.

 

[Revvy]

They are the same . I just don't think in .4957 pounds so I display in pounds and ounces.

But I did the same thing you did in Beersmith.

I think you are good to go. I started reading all of this parti-gyle, and it looks like your second runnings are going to be basically a mild. I know they used to parti-gyle back in the day with first runnings a brown (before it started to transform / split off into porter) and the second runnings were a mild.

So I'd leave all of your "portery" stuff in there (not steep it), and see what happens. I'm thinking worst case scenario you can blend the two beers and you should end up with something drinkable.

I'm really thinking about trying this out (non-pumpkin). Parti-gyle sounds really complicated for a non-pro brewer like me .

What are you going to ferment these in. Do you have 3 gallon carboys?

How do you adjust Beersmith NOT to give the ".4957" increments? It's a pain, is there some way to change the defaults?

I think the second beer is going to be really really flavorful with all those grains in there...It may even be tastier than the Porter one....I may even have to later do a non pumpkin partigyle of the same recipe.

For a "non-pro" brewer you did a hellova job crunching the numbers and helping me get my head around it...

I think the hardest part of the partigyle proces is actually recipe formulation NOT the All Grain part of it...Basically instead of sparging into the same brewpot, you put it in a seperate one, then brew as is. (I am probably going to have a brew buddy help me, and actually brew one of the batches.)

I've been working on an article on all grain brewing in mr beers, which means I've basically been brewing a bunch of 2.5 gallon batches lately. I have 3- 3gallon water jugs that I've been using, as well as one little mr beer fermenter...I was going to get some 3- gallon better bottles, but they are pretty expensive, so I decided to also disprove the myth that you shouldn't use water bottles for brewing (except for <7's>) all my batches have turned out great so far.

I'm actually finding that 2.5 gallon AG brewing is pretty addicting...I'm more apt to be willing to experiment with funky recipes (like this) without thinking I'm going to be stuck with a ton of beer, and it costs a lot less than brewing 5 gallon recipes...

The drawback is that these micro batches add up...I ended up doing 4 beers for the article over the period of about 3 weeks...and I already had 4-5 gallon batches in various stages of fermentation, bottle conditioning, or drinking...So now I have beer up the wazoo!!!!

 

[Warped04]

How do you adjust Beersmith NOT to give the ".4957" increments? It's a pain, is there some way to change the defaults?

Yeah, in the units section of the options there is a checkbox at the bottom:

"For English units, display grain using both pounds and ounces"

I attached the file beersmith.jpg so you can see it.

The concepts I understand, the experience is where I lack. Small brewing sounds great for testing just these kinds of things.

 

[Revvy]

Yeah, in the units section of the options there is a checkbox at the bottom:

Arrgh!!! Knowing that before would have saved me from countless hours of frustration Thanks again!!!

Doing small batches is a great way to experiment and work on your process as well as allowing you to do full volume boils on a stove...

 

[Warped04]

Yeah, I accidentally found it in my countless hours of frustration dealing with sparge volumes.

 

[Bobby_M]

I think the key to partigyle is just remaining flexible and be prepared to change your hop schedule on the fly after you verify your preboil gravities.

Go ahead and segregate your first runnings and sparge runnings. You can also cross-dilute to get each batch into the range you want. If you 3 gallons of 1.090 and 3 gallons of 1.040, you can easily pull off a half gallon of each and swap. You'll end up with 3g of 1.081 and 3g of 1.048.

 

[Revvy]

I think the key to partigyle is just remaining flexible and be prepared to change your hop schedule on the fly after you verify your preboil gravities.

Go ahead and segregate your first runnings and sparge runnings. You can also cross-dilute to get each batch into the range you want. If you 3 gallons of 1.090 and 3 gallons of 1.040, you can easily pull off a half gallon of each and swap. You'll end up with 3g of 1.081 and 3g of 1.048.

Thanks for the hint!

I still haven't even sat down to figure the hop and pumpkin additions yet...I think I fried my brain enough for one day.

 

[Warped04]

I think the key to partigyle is just remaining flexible and be prepared to change your hop schedule on the fly after you verify your preboil gravities.

Ahh...I didn't even think about the hops. So basically we figure out the estimated hops by creating the recipe for the estimated gravity of the beers, and if the gravities don't come out right, just adjust?

So we'll need three recipes.

1) Just the grain of the entire batch.

2) First Runnings (1st Beer) 1.0816 and hops (for hop schedule), pumpkin and spices.

3) Second Runnings (2nd Beer) 1.0554 and hops (for hop schedule), pumpkin and spices.

 

[Revvy]

Ahh...I didn't even think about the hops. So basically to figure out the hops, we would need to create the recipe for the gravity of the first beer, and if the gravity doesn't come out right, just adjust? Then the same for the second beer?

So we'll need three recipes.

1) Just the grain of the entire batch.

2) First Runnings (1st Beer) 1.0816 and hops (for hop schedule), pumpkin and spices.

3) Second Runnings (2nd Beer) 1.0554 and hops (for hop schedule), pumpkin and spices.

Yeah, that's about right. I'm going to look at some of the pumpkin beers on here and the rest of the webs and see what they use...For simplicity sake, the hop types will be the same for both beers, just in different quanitites, same with the amount of pumkin and spices.

 

[carnevoodoo]

I've done a few parti gyles and I've had some success, but I've never gone from roasted grain to not wanting roast in the beer. I did go the other way once. I made a barley wine and then added some other grain to make a porter. I also did an imperial stout 2nd runnings that turned into a roasty brown that was kind of awesome. The way I look at the parti gyle is that it is essentially a free beer. You get what comes out and it likely won't be to style, but who cares. It is free beer.

Steeping definitely seems like your best bet for what you're looking for though. I just feel like rambling today.

 

[Warped04]

The way I look at the parti gyle is that it is essentially a free beer. You get what comes out and it likely won't be to style, but who cares. It is free beer.

It does make a double batch at a very reasonable cost.

From what I understand, it is how they used to brew back in the day. The cost of larger kettles made more sense to them to make two smaller kettles, and this was the result.

I just feel like rambling today.

It's those girls in bikini's and high of 72 and low of 68 that's got your head all funny. You should just ditch, head up to Stone and drink there all day.

 

[Revvy]

It does make a double batch at a very reasonable cost.

From what I understand, it is how they used to brew back in the day. The cost of larger kettles made more sense to them to make two smaller kettles, and this was the result.

Yep...Take a look at the history of Porters and you'll see how important partigyle was to the early brewer...also I believe the various Scottish "Shilling Beers" were the various runnings of the parti-gyle...as well as the "table beers" that children drank in lieu of water.

 

[camiller]

...So now I have beer up the wazoo!!!!

I think your doing it wrong



Thanks for posting all of this, I am planning on doing a partigyle with the 9-9-9 barlywine as the first beer and a porter as the second.

I made a barley wine and then added some other grain to make a porter.

Would you care to share any details?

 

[Revvy]

Thanks for posting all of this, I am planning on doing a partigyle with the 9-9-9 barlywine as the first beer and a porter as the second

Well, it isn't so much me posting this to teach anyone else anything...It was more like;

"HELP ME!!!!!!!!!"

But I'm glad other people are getting interested in try this ancient technique. I was surprised at the number of lurkers of it...But I was getting a little scared not to get many replies initially. But it looks like we've managed to cobble it together...now we hop and pumpkin these bad-boys and we'll be all set.

I probably wont be able to brew it til NEXT weekend though...

 

[carnevoodoo]

It's those girls in bikini's and high of 72 and low of 68 that's got your head all funny. You should just ditch, head up to Stone and drink there all day.

I think it is like 80 outside right now and it is gross. In the cubed world that is my office it is nice and cool, though.

Stone is a pretty cool place to drink and all, but I've got a bar that is a 5 minute walk from my house called Hamilton's Tavern. 24 taps (all craft), hundreds of bottles, and I seem to have acquired the bartender's discount. I can't drink home from Stone, but itt sure is a pretty brewery.

Oh! And Alesmith is only 2 miles from my work, so that makes Friday afternoons fun too.

 

[Warped04]

Ahh...I've never been there, but I know where you are. The AFC half is coming up. ends right near your house.

 

[Freezeblade]

It's those girls in bikini's and high of 72 and low of 68 that's got your head all funny. You should just ditch, head up to Stone and drink there all day.

Nah, I'm waiting 'till friday to head to Stone, show up the day the vertical epic is released

 

[Revvy]

What do you think of this for spices/hopping of the porter?

Now I calculated it based on the "Porter Recipe" Not the Partigyle base itself.


It puts it at 24.6 IBUs

.75 oz. East Kent Goldings (5.00 %AA) boiled 60
.25 oz. Fuggle (4.75 %AA) boiled 15 min.
3.75 pounds Canned Pumpkin (roasted @ 350 degrees for 30 min, added last 15 mins of boil)
1 teaspoons Cinnamon (last 15 mins of boil)
.25 teaspoons Ginger (last 15 mins of boil)
.25 teaspoons Nutmeg (last 15 mins of boil)
.25 teaspoons Allspice (last 15 mins of boil)


Anyone know how to calculate how much sugar/pound pumpkin is so I can calculate it's contribution to the OG?

Also, anyone have any idea how I can figure out how to make Beersmith allow me to make hop calculations on the 2nd runnings beer?

 

[carnevoodoo]

Nah, I'm waiting 'till friday to head to Stone, show up the day the vertical epic is released

It is already out there! They released it on the 4th!!!!

 

[Revvy]

I used the graivty shift to calculate up with the hopping amount...How's this look?

0.61 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] (60 min) Hops 21.4 IBU
0.20 oz Fuggles [4.50 %] (15 min) Hops 3.2 IBU

(24.6 IBU's)

Now I guess I should reduce this as well?

0.25 tsp Ground Allspice (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
0.25 tsp Ground Ginger (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
0.25 tsp Ground Nutmeg (Boil 5.0 min) Misc
0.50 tsp Ground Cinnamon (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
3.75 lb Canned Pumpkin (Boil 15.0 min) Misc

 

[Warped04]

Hey Revvy,

I think you actually need to create 3 recipe files in Beersmith to figure out the hops.

I think you do the first and 2nd runnings recipes with their estimated gravities to do the hops / pumpkin. I just don't think Beersmith is setup to do this type of brewing.

 

[Warped04]

I also looked at RichBrewer's Pumpkin Ale, and from what I've heard it's an excellent pumpkin beer:

[thread]23489[/thread]

He's way up on his spices, but I also know that #1. His is aged for like 4-5 months and #2, (I think at least) you are going for beer with a side of pumpkin instead of pumpkin with a side of beer (if that makes sense at all).

But I like your hop schedule.

 

[Revvy]

Hey Revvy,

I think you actually need to create 3 recipe files in Beersmith to figure out the hops.

I think you do the first and 2nd runnings recipes with their estimated gravities to do the hops / pumpkin. I just don't think Beersmith is setup to do this type of brewing.

That's what I did, or at least I think I did

Here's what I have...

Partigyle Base

Est Original Gravity: 1.068 SG

Amount Item Type % or IBU
10 lbs 15.0 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 70.97 %
1 lbs 7.9 oz Brown Malt (65.0 SRM) Grain 9.68 %
1 lbs 7.9 oz Munich Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM) Grain 9.68 %
8.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM) Grain 3.23 %
8.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (120.0 SRM) Grain 3.23 %
8.0 oz Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 3.23 %

Pumpkin Porter
(First Runnings)

Calculated as 60% of the original grainbill

2.5 gallon batch

(equivalent to)

Amount Item Type % or IBU
5 lbs 6.8 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 70.97 %
11.8 oz Brown Malt (65.0 SRM) Grain 9.68 %
11.8 oz Munich Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM) Grain 9.68 %
3.9 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM) Grain 3.23 %
3.9 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (120.0 SRM) Grain 3.23 %
3.9 oz Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 3.23 %

(Hops)
0.75 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] (60 min) Hops 21.4 IBU
0.25 oz Fuggles [4.50 %] (15 min) Hops 3.2 IBU

(Pumpkin/Spices)
0.25 tsp Ground Allspice (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
0.25 tsp Ground Ginger (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
0.25 tsp Ground Nutmeg (Boil 5.0 min) Misc
0.50 tsp Ground Cinnamon (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
3.75 lb Canned Pumpkin (Boil 15.0 min) Misc

Est Original Gravity: 1.081 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.021 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 7.90 %
Bitterness: 24.6 IBU Calories: 43 cal/pint
Est Color: 30.1 SRM

Pumpkin "Amber Ale"
(Second Runnings)

Calculated as 40% of Grainbill

2.5 Gallons

(Equivalent to)

Amount Item Type % or IBU
4 lbs 4.4 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 85.06 %
4.0 oz Brown Malt (65.0 SRM) Grain 4.98 %
4.0 oz Munich Malt - 20L (20.0 SRM) Grain 4.98 %
1.3 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM) Grain 1.66 %
1.3 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (120.0 SRM) Grain 1.66 %
1.3 oz Chocolate Malt (350.0 SRM) Grain 1.66 %

(Hops)
0.61 oz Goldings, East Kent [5.00 %] (60 min) Hops 21.4 IBU
0.20 oz Fuggles [4.50 %] (15 min) Hops 3.2 IBU

(Pumpkin Spices Not Calculated Yet)
0.25 tsp Ground Allspice (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
0.25 tsp Ground Ginger (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
0.25 tsp Ground Nutmeg (Boil 5.0 min) Misc
0.50 tsp Ground Cinnamon (Boil 15.0 min) Misc
3.75 lb Canned Pumpkin (Boil 15.0 min) Misc

Est Original Gravity: 1.054 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.014 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5.21 %
Bitterness: 24.6 IBU Calories: 43 cal/pint
Est Color: 15.0 SRM

 

[Warped04]

Oh shoot. I forgot that you were doing a 2.5 gallon batch when I was looking at everything. I changed my mind on the spices. I like it.

 

[Warped04]

Hey Revvy...Did you brew this up yet?

 

[Revvy]

Hey Revvy...Did you brew this up yet?

Not yet...financial issues prevent me from brewing til next week.
(Stupid rent and car insurance being due in the same pay period this month.)

 

[Warped04]

I hate having two big bills due at the same time.

 

[Revvy]

Well yesterday was Partigyle pumpkin day!

It went really smooth. Instead of brewing it at my place, my buddy invited me to bring my stuff to his place, so, since he had a yard, we could BBQ after we brewed. (I brought over some venison steaks that I marinated in an ancho/chipotle marinade I had made up the night before.)

We started around 11 am and pitched the second batch of beer's yeast at 4 pm. Had it been just me doing it, it would probably have taken maybe an adiitional hour or maybe more.

The interesting thing was that there was only about a 10-20 minute overlap where both worts were cooking. (My buddy's electric stove is much stronger than mine evidently, it got 3 gallons up to boil in no time.)

It seemed to take a long time for the second runnings to reach 3 gallons...there was a lot of loss due to grain absorbtion...that's why we were nearly 3/4's through the first boil when we got the second one on the stove.

We decided to do something similiar to Biermunchers bucket sparge doohicky, only the extra bucket was'n as narrow as his, so we didn't rig up bolts, and were able to set the bucket on top of the cooler. We managed to get the runoff to match pretty evenly.

Though next time I think I might batch sparge instead, and actually stir the grains more.

We didn't hit our numbers dead on though, instead of 1.080 & 1.050 (approximately) we got about 1.070 & 1.040... Still nothing to sneeze at in terms of being good sized beers. So I feel satisfied with that.

The downside/problems that occured were minor.
They didn't have EKG in pellet form, just whole leaf and it was a mess between that and the pumpkin goop to strain through on the first beer. On the second one we switched to a larger strainer and that helped immensly.

(in retrospect I might have considered doing first wort hopping right in the mash tun...that way they would have stayed behind.)

But otherwise that was the only challenge.

A couple of tips for partigyle brewing.....lay out all your additions for both beers ahead of time, and mark them. I normally use little bowls for each hops, if I were doing this again, and at my place I would lay out 2 pieces of paper on the counter, on labled beer 1, and the other beer 2. And on each paper I would pre- lay out each hop and spice addition, as well as the yeast packet (or starters) for both. I would lay those things out before I even started mashing. Once you get going it is easy to lose track of which beer got what addition. I think that the only thing that saved us was that half of the hops were whole leaf so we could tell what we were adding when.

Overall it was fun. I would probably do it again. But NOT on a regular basis. I think I will do this once more without the spices and pumpkins to see how tasty the beers would be without it. The hydro samples tasted great.

This morning before I left for work, both beers had krauzens on them, so all appears to be well.

 

[hammacks]

Awesome Revvy. I am going to be brewing my pumpkin (ale/porter/whatever) and this looks very interesting. I assume you had a refractometer? And did you adjust your hops to your gravities or just leave them since they were close? How close is the above recipe to your final?

Thanks for doing all the leg work for the rest of us! (you too Warped!)

 

[Revvy]

Awesome Revvy. I am going to be brewing my pumpkin (ale/porter/whatever) and this looks very interesting. I assume you had a refractometer? And did you adjust your hops to your gravities or just leave them since they were close? How close is the above recipe to your final?

Thanks for doing all the leg work for the rest of us! (you too Warped!)

No refractometer. And no I didn't re-adjust the hops to the gravities, that would be a little too anal for me. I figured since partigyle was done LOOOOOOONNNNNGGGGG before the "science" of brewing became so detailed and people even understood IBU's then I'd make it however it came out.

The only diff from the original is that I rounded each of the first 3 grains up to even them....11 pounds 2 row, and 1.5 pounds each of Brown and Munich.