Length of time in Primary?

[NWMushroom]

NWmushroom, what are you fermenting in? I read that buckets insulate better, so give a slightly off reading as compared to say a glass carboy which might be much more accurate when using an adhesive thermometer. But again, I'm only basing this on stuff I read, so in actual practice I may be completely wrong...

I use a plastic bucket. When I check the gravity reading I also check temperature and have found the strip thermometer to always be accurate to within 1-2 degrees.

 

[onipar]

I use a plastic bucket. When I check the gravity reading I also check temperature and have found the strip thermometer to always be accurate to within 1-2 degrees.

Wow, that's actually pretty impressive. I guess I should trust my therm strip a bit more.

Thanks!

 

[Dondlelinger]

I use kit brews mainly.

1) Keep brew in primary for at least 2weeks even if fermentation is over in 4 days.The more you can wait the better your brew will be.
2) Keep brew in bottles at least 3 weeks even if you think its ready in one or 2...four weeks is what i try and wait for...minimum you will taste a big difference if you wait.
3) keep your temperatures low, the lower and slower you can keep fermentation the cleaner the beer... isf you have an extra tub or large tupperwear container you may want to use that to immerse your fermenter. if not a wet towel can help.
4) Patience is gold in brewing.. if your beer tastes weird// cidery//apply.. just wait another week or 2 and try it again.

There is no need to transfer to secondary at all.. this is a myth. read more about it online.

 

[Revvy]

Thanks, Speedy. That advice fits perfectly with what my brother just said to me:

"Stop listening to the internet forums and use the book" (Joy of Homebrewing). I think I'm just getting ahead of myself, considering topics I'm nowhere near to actually being able to use in practice. I"m still just an "extract brewer" after all. :rockin:

So basically you brother recommended trusting a book that is over 30 years old, rather than a place that has over 40,000 registered users and where DAILY the most state of the art brewing information and wisdom is discussed?

A place where NEW concepts are introduced and then end up as part of the greater brewing communitiy. Where many members have written books, articles in BYO and Zymurgy and are regulars on podcasts and videos...

Were if Charlie Papazian farts there'll be a thread about it within 5 minutes.

This is the 21st century and not all places on the internet are home of bad information. We tend to police that on here, and shut it down.

One thing to remember is that Papazian, as wonderful as it is, was written 30 years ago...and a lot of "science" or "common wisdom" that he as an author tapped into has evolved....all authors face this issue with their work.

Charlie Papazian said it But he might not necessarily say it now....see the difference?

His basic info is timeless....how to brew beer, figure out recipes, etc...but some of the info is just a reflection of the "opinions," or prevailing wisdom of the times, and may not even reflect his current beliefs...There's a podcast with Papazian from a year or so ago, where he talks about just having started using rice hulls in his mash ton...so if he doesn't update the book again, or write a new one, unless you've heard the podcast or read it on here, you won't KNOW about it.

A book is a snapshot of the author's body of knowlege and the "common wisdom" at the time the author wrote the book, which may mean 3 years before it was even published. Papazian's book is 30+ years old. The basic knowlege is good, but brewing science and experience has progressed to where some things an author believes or says at that time may no-longer be valid...even to the author.

John Palmer has changed many ideas since the online version of the book went up several years ago.

Most of the time when someone "revises" a book they don't necessarilly "re-write" the entire thing...and unless they annotated the changes, often all a "revised" edition has to make it up to date is a new introduction, and maybe the addition or removal of some things. But Rarely is a revision in a book a serious comb through of the entire book.

This is an ever evolving hobby, and information and ideas change. And now with places like this with a huuge amount of dedicated and serious brewers, as well as all the podcasts online, you will find the most state of the art brewing info.

Fermenting the beer is just a part of what the yeast do. If you leave the beer alone, they will go back and clean up the byproducts of fermentation that often lead to off flavors. That's why many brewers skip secondary and leave our beers alone in primary for a month. It leaves plenty of time for the yeast to ferment, clean up after themselves and then fall out, leaving our beers crystal clear, with a tight yeast cake.

This is the latest recommendation, it is the same one many of us have been giving for several years on here.

Tom from Michigan asks:
I have a few questions about secondary fermentations. I've read both pros and cons for 2nd fermentations and it is driving me crazy what to do. One, are they necessary for lower Gravity beers?
Two, what is the dividing line between low gravity and high gravity beers? Is it 1.060 and higher?
Three, I have an American Brown Ale in the primary right now, a SG of 1.058, Should I secondary ferment this or not?
Your advice is appreciated, thanks for all you do!

Allen from New York asks:
John, please talk about why or why not you would NOT use a secondary fermenter (bright tank?) and why or why not a primary only fermentation is a good idea. In other words, give some clarification or reason why primary only is fine, versus the old theory of primary then secondary normal gravity ale fermentations.

Palmer answers:
These are good questions – When and why would you need to use a secondary fermenter? First some background – I used to recommend racking a beer to a secondary fermenter. My recommendation was based on the premise that (20 years ago) larger (higher gravity) beers took longer to ferment completely, and that getting the beer off the yeast reduced the risk of yeast autolysis (ie., meaty or rubbery off-flavors) and it allowed more time for flocculation and clarification, reducing the amount of yeast and trub carryover to the bottle. Twenty years ago, a homebrewed beer typically had better flavor, or perhaps less risk of off-flavors, if it was racked off the trub and clarified before bottling. Today that is not the case.

The risk inherent to any beer transfer, whether it is fermenter-to-fermenter or fermenter-to-bottles, is oxidation and staling. Any oxygen exposure after fermentation will lead to staling, and the more exposure, and the warmer the storage temperature, the faster the beer will go stale.

Racking to a secondary fermenter used to be recommended because staling was simply a fact of life – like death and taxes. But the risk of autolysis was real and worth avoiding – like cholera. In other words, you know you are going to die eventually, but death by cholera is worth avoiding.

But then modern medicine appeared, or in our case, better yeast and better yeast-handling information. Suddenly, death by autolysis is rare for a beer because of two factors: the freshness and health of the yeast being pitched has drastically improved, and proper pitching rates are better understood. The yeast no longer drop dead and burst like Mr. Creosote from Monty Python’s The Meaning of Life when fermentation is complete – they are able to hibernate and wait for the next fermentation to come around. The beer has time to clarify in the primary fermenter without generating off-flavors. With autolysis no longer a concern, staling becomes the main problem. The shelf life of a beer can be greatly enhanced by avoiding oxygen exposure and storing the beer cold (after it has had time to carbonate).

Therefore I, and Jamil and White Labs and Wyeast Labs, do not recommend racking to a secondary fermenter for ANY ale, except when conducting an actual second fermentation, such as adding fruit or souring. Racking to prevent autolysis is not necessary, and therefore the risk of oxidation is completely avoidable. Even lagers do not require racking to a second fermenter before lagering. With the right pitching rate, using fresh healthy yeast, and proper aeration of the wort prior to pitching, the fermentation of the beer will be complete within 3-8 days (bigger = longer). This time period includes the secondary or conditioning phase of fermentation when the yeast clean up acetaldehyde and diacetyl. The real purpose of lagering a beer is to use the colder temperatures to encourage the yeast to flocculate and promote the precipitation and sedimentation of microparticles and haze.

So, the new rule of thumb: don’t rack a beer to a secondary, ever, unless you are going to conduct a secondary fermentation.

THIS is where the latest discussion and all your questions answered.
We have multiple threads about this all over the place, like this one,so we really don't need to go over it again, all the info you need is here;

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f163/secondary-not-john-palmer-jamil-zainasheff-weigh-176837/

We basically proved that old theory wrong on here 5 years ago, and now the rest fo the brewing community is catching up. Though a lot of old dogs don't tend to follow the latest news, and perpetuate the old stuff.

The autolysis from prolong yeast contact has fallen by the wayside, in fact yeast contact is now seen as a good thing.

All my beers sit a minimum of 1 month in the primary. And I recently bottled a beer that sat in primary for 5.5 months with no ill effects.....

You'll find that more and more recipes these days do not advocate moving to a secondary at all, but mention primary for a month, which is starting to reflect the shift in brewing culture that has occurred in the last 4 years, MOSTLY because of many of us on here, skipping secondary, opting for longer primaries, and writing about it. Recipes in BYO have begun stating that in their magazine. I remember the "scandal" it caused i the letters to the editor's section a month later, it was just like how it was here when we began discussing it, except a lot more civil than it was here. But after the Byo/Basic brewing experiment, they started reflecting it in their recipes.

 

[Dondlelinger]

trusting a book that is over 30 years old, rather than a place that has over 40,000 registered users and where DAILY the most state of the art brewing information and wisdom is discussed?

So true... just because its a brew book doesn't mean its 100% correct.. its old material.

If you leave the beer alone, they will go back and clean up the byproducts of fermentation that often lead to off flavors. That's why many brewers skip secondary and leave our beers alone in primary for a month. It leaves plenty of time for the yeast to ferment, clean up after themselves and then fall out, leaving our beers crystal clear, with a tight yeast cake.

Agree 100% but, 1 month in primary so long ..you can get a nice cake in 2 weeks...but patience in brewing is key.

 

[Revvy]

Agree 100% but, 1 month in primary so long ..you can get a nice cake in 2 weeks...but patience in brewing is key.

It's only long if you don't want great beer.

You may get a nice cake in 2 weeks, but I can assure you I get a better one.

I'll give you another reason.....I get very little sediment in my bottles after a month in primary.

The only filtering I've ever done has been through my kidneys. And I get extremely clear beer, usually forgetting even to add moss to my boil.

I get little if any sediment in my bottles, simply by opting for a long primary. This is my yeastcake for my Sri Lankin Stout that sat in primary for 5 weeks. Notice how tight the yeast cake is? None of that got racked over to my bottling bucket. And the beer is extremely clear.

That little bit of beer to the right is all of the 5 gallons that DIDN'T get vaccumed off the surface of the tight trub. Note how clear it is, there's little if any floaties in there.

When I put 5 gallons in my fermenter, I tend to get 5 gallons into bottles. The cake itself is like cement, it's about an inch thick and very, very dense, you can't just tilt your bucket and have it fall out. I had to use water pressure to get it to come out.

This is the last little bit of the same beer in the bottling bucket, this is the only sediment that made it though and that was done on purpose, when I rack I always make sure to rub the autosiphon across the bottom of the primary to make sure there's plenty of yeast in suspension to carb the beer, but my bottles are all crystal clear and have little sediment in them.

Half the time I forget to use moss, and you can't tell the difference in clarity.

I get the barest hint of sediment in my bottles....just enough for the yeast to have done the job of carbonating the beer.

 

[onipar]

Revvy,

Sorry, I know sometimes sarcasm/humor can be missed in text. I meant it as a joke. I've gotten a *ton* of help since signing up here. Didn't mean to suggest otherwise.

Thanks. ;-)

 

[tvtoms]

You can always open one bottle after a week or so anyway to taste what a 7 day bottle tastes like after an x amount of fermentation. I think it becomes more obvious why people say a few weeks with time.

Oh, and personally, I'd pay more attention to the forum than a book! There's people here who could each write "the" book on brewing if they felt like it.

 

[lumpher]

wow. revvy wrote a book. i can't read that much right now

 

[Dondlelinger]

The only filtering I've ever done has been through my kidneys.

Omg I laughed at that one. Yah its true though my best beer was when the yeast cake looked exactly like that one revvy. I believe it was like 18 days in primary for that brew, but again the longer you can wait the better the brew will turn out.

 

[onipar]

wow. revvy wrote a book. i can't read that much right now

Yeah...I should have known better than joke about something like that.

Again, to reiterate, I didn't mean to suggest that the info here isn't extremely helpful. I meant it as a joke because my brother has noticed how much time I've been spending on this forum. :rockin:

 

[Dondlelinger]

Again, to reiterate, I didn't mean to suggest that the info here isn't extremely helpful. I meant it as a joke because my brother has noticed how much time I've been spending on this forum.

Yah it's all good, I would just suggest these 4 points mainly.


1) Keep brew in primary for at least 2 weeks even if fermentation is over in 7 days.The more you can wait the better your brew will be.
2) Keep brew in bottles at least 3 weeks even if you think its ready in one or 2...four weeks is what i try and wait for...minimum you will taste a big difference if you wait.
3) keep your fermentation temperatures low(60-70f), the lower and slower you can keep fermentation the cleaner the beer flavor... if you have an extra tub or large tupperwear container you may want to use that to immerse your fermenter. if not a wet towel can help.
4) Patience is gold in brewing.. if your beer tastes weird// cidery//apply.. just wait another week or 2 and try it again...in 2 weeks if its still tastes weird wait for anouther 2 weeks..

Also,
There is no need to transfer to secondary at all.. this is a myth. read more about it online.

 

[onipar]

Thanks, Dondlelinger. All great advice. Yes, I'm definitely keeping my brew going for at least 2 weeks (this Sunday will be 2), and also trusting my hydrometer and taste buds.

Luckily my garage manages to stay fairly cool in teh spring. I had my fermentation temps down around 60-65 during peak. Then I let the temp go up near days 6-9, to about 70, and now it's back in the garage hovering around 60.

I'll probably be using a swamp coller once summer hits hard though.

Thanks again

 

[andrew300]

For all my beers, I wait until signs of fermentation is complete (yeast has dropped, no air lock activity, etc.) This usually takes about 5-7 days for an ale and 10-14 days for a lager. I then take a gravity reading and it is usually where it is needed to be. If I am doing a d-rest (lagers or some english strains), I will do so at this time. The beer only needs a few days after fermentation to "clean up" after itself. Once that is done, the beer will only degrade quicker (oxidation, yeast dieing, etc.) If you are drinking the beer fast, it won't be a problem, but if you are going to store it for a while it could be. Keep in mind, this works for me because I pitch the correct amount of healthy yeast and ferment in a temperature controlled freezer. If you don't control temp or have bad yeast health, then the beer may benefit from extra conditioning.

 

[mcaple1]

I still think you have a whole lot more reading to do. Everything on this forum says at least 4 weeks, maybe one less for wheat beers. You need to do some more waiting and reading.

I think you might need to do some more reading/listening/watching etc. Jamil will point out many times that 3 weeks for most styles is "plenty" of time in the primary...and that is without a secondary. 3 weeks, and then off to bottling or keg. John Palmer also advocates not transferring to secondary, but rather just leaving the beer in a week or two longer in the primary. If you rack, do it for dry hopping, fruits, other crazy additions, etc. Racking may help you clear, but you risk infection, and it really isn't necessary at this level.

Listen to Jamil, John, and Justin on the multiple podcasts they have on the brewing network, and also, brewingtv.com.

The "best practices" for homebrewing are always changing, so I would never tell another homebrewer that there is only one way to do it. Do what works for you...take OG readings...that is probably the one tried and true technique that has yet to change over the years.