Legal Sources - Regarding Lease Laws or Renters Rights

[Schlenkerla]

There's no mafia or organized crime element that I know of per say in this. Even though I'm in Chicago.

They tend to take advantage of people that don't know any better. They have elderly/immigrant tenants that tend not to make waves.

I'm neither. A full blooded American white male. They have never met me. Only my wife and they think she can be bull****ted. They don't know her very well. She's Irish and a real hot head at times, daughter of cop, with same no nonsense attitude.

I agree dispute this in writing. Just so it doesn't escalate verbally.

At the end of the day the water bill is in their name. Now they are figuring out this is a bad thing, especially since this is on one meter.

The owner is 80/90 year old lady. The property management manages a lot of property in the west suburbs. They are Czech.

The only reason I say that is the mafia comment. Despite the fact I'm one suburb from Cicero. The suburb of Cicero is no longer Italian. Mostly Hispanic. This area is slowly becoming more Hispanic. It was predominantly white working class, heavy in Polish, Czech, Italian, and Greek. Most white middle class people are migrating to the far west suburbs for new developments and modern housing.

I also live two doors down from the city hall and the cop shop. No worries about strong arm b.s.

 

[IslandLizard]

[...] Anyway if they know you brew, it could be they think the extra usage if from you. [...]

Over a million gallons worth?

 

[Schlenkerla]

While I brew, I don't brew in this apartment. My water usage is limited to washing dishes, by hand, cooking with water from the kitchen faucet. Then what's common with one full bath room. Mostly with one adult and a child living in the apartment Monday through Friday.

They have central laundry facility that's pay as you go. My wife does laundry for free at her mother's house.

I have a work apartment 3 hours south of Chicago. All brewing water usage is from that location.

Water use is minimal.

 

[Rhumbline]

True enough. Can you help me with my adverse possession and prescriptive easement situations as well?

I'm not any kind of lawyer, but I had to look up adverse possession a few years back when some idiot was trying to stir up crap.

What I found is that even in states where it is allowed, it's practically impossible to pull off. The bar is set so high that there's a reason you never hear of anyone actually doing it.

 

[bethebrew]

I'm not any kind of lawyer, but I had to look up adverse possession a few years back when some idiot was trying to stir up crap.

What I found is that even in states where it is allowed, it's practically impossible to pull off. The bar is set so high that there's a reason you never hear of anyone actually doing it.

Interesting. My neighbor stirred up some **** which opened up a can of worms that seemed easy to capture but on second thought perhaps not so much. My lawyer said the same thing you are, and quoted me 10-20k to "fight the good fight" to possess what is pretty much mine already. At least I know the deed descriptions or deed calls is in question, and I got water rights and an easement clarified.

 

[bethebrew]

While I brew, I don't brew in this apartment. My water usage is limited to washing dishes, by hand, cooking with water from the kitchen faucet. Then what's common with one full bath room. Mostly with one adult and a child living in the apartment Monday through Friday.

They have central laundry facility that's pay as you go. My wife does laundry for free at her mother's house.

I have a work apartment 3 hours south of Chicago. All brewing water usage is from that location.

Water use is minimal.

If it's yellow, are you letting it mellow?

Are you collecting rain water?

 

[Hoppy2bmerry]

Over a million gallons worth?

Of course not, we can only make 200 gallon/year. LOL with that said much more water is used than product produced. http://qz.com/403386/heres-how-much-water-it-takes-to-make-californias-craft-beer/

 

[Rhumbline]

Interesting. My neighbor stirred up some **** which opened up a can of worms that seemed easy to capture but on second thought perhaps not so much. My lawyer said the same thing you are, and quoted me 10-20k to "fight the good fight" to possess what is pretty much mine already. At least I know the deed descriptions or deed calls is in question, and I got water rights and an easement clarified.

What makes it nearly impossible is the definitions of the words in the following...

(a) The person and the predecessors in interest of the person have maintained actual, open, notorious, exclusive, hostile and continuous possession of the property for a period of 10 years;

 

[beernbourbon]

Interesting. My neighbor stirred up some **** which opened up a can of worms that seemed easy to capture but on second thought perhaps not so much. My lawyer said the same thing you are, and quoted me 10-20k to "fight the good fight" to possess what is pretty much mine already. At least I know the deed descriptions or deed calls is in question, and I got water rights and an easement clarified.

Not to hijack OP's thread, and if you'd like to take this to PM, just shoot me a message and I can help you out a little.
First things first, you are going to need to get a state professionally licensed surveyor out there to retrace your deed on the ground.
If in fact someone is attempting an adverse possession on your property, simple written notification to them on your part will effectively and immediately negate the criteria that is in most states (that even allow it), nearly identical to what Rhumbline cites. Here in Ohio, it's 25 years. That being said, a surveyor can have all the evidence in your favor, and a judge has the right to toss it all and rule against you. Kinda BS, but just is.
Prescriptive easements are a whole other critter. VERY subjective, and proof either way, for or against, is difficult at best.

As mentioned by others- I am not an attorney, nor in the legal profession, I'm just a surveyor, but been around the block once or twice. [emoji16]

 

[Schlenkerla]

To gather a sense of ridiculousness.... They, the management, are figuring 92,500 gallons were wasted in a month on one unit.

According to the EPA.

The Facts on Leaks:
The average household's leaks can account for more than 10,000 gallons of water wasted every year, or the amount of water needed to wash 270 loads of laundry.

Faucets and Showerheads:
A showerhead leaking at 10 drips per minute wastes more than 500 gallons per year. That's the amount of water it takes to wash 60 loads of dishes in your dishwasher.

Leak Detection:
A good method to check for leaks is to examine your winter water usage. It's likely that a family of four has a serious leak problem if its winter water use exceeds 12,000 gallons per month.

Toilets:
If you do need to replace the entire toilet, look for a WaterSense labeled model. If the average family replaces its older, inefficient toilets with new WaterSense labeled ones, it could save 13,000 gallons per year. Retrofitting the house could save the family nearly $2,400 in water and wastewater bills over the lifetime of the toilets.

Frankly the odds of 6 units losing this much water, would very low. People would have to have faucets running.

I wonder if a sump pump could pump 1.11M gallons continually without burning out the motor.

Common sense tells me the number of gallons is wrong or the meter is messed up or set wrong. Like the units are in liters.

 

[Rhumbline]

I had a problem once where my yard guy left my hose running for God knows how many days. The water company was very cool, they sent someone out and verified the reading, told me there wasn't anything they could do.

I don't remember the exact usage but my bill was three times normal.

For reference, a typical residential swimming pool is about 20,000 gallons. A hose bib might flow 10 gallons per minute or more which would be about 15,000 gallons in 24 hours.

Does your place irrigate with reclaimed water? Are there any exterior taps that are potable water? Is this bill for potable, reclaim, or both? Municipalities that use reclaimed water usually (around here, at least) meter them separately because reclaim is provided at a lower rate since there is no sewer impact.

If this bill is for potable water then he is also being charged for the sewer impact of the excess usage. Usually in cases like this the utility company will waive the sewer impact of the increased usage and only bill for the water. If he pushes this, tell him you want proof of what he actually paid, not what was originally billed.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Good point....

I'm not paying squat for water, proof or no proof. They can take me to small claims court. They are to provide water per the lease. I'm to pay rent at the agreed upon amount per the lease.

Its not my problem they are inept at building maintenance or property management. It doesn't make sense to wait several months to address the issue. Then expect me to bail them out of their problem. They have the right to inspect the apartments as needed which should have been done at the first water bill spike 6 months ago.

I truly believe there is more to this. The amounts in gallons don't add up, I don't think they have done due diligence to solve the problem or accurately report it to the tenants.

Plan to reject their request for payment in writing.

 

[Schlenkerla]

I had a problem once where my yard guy left my hose running for God knows how many days. The water company was very cool, they sent someone out and verified the reading, told me there wasn't anything they could do.

I don't remember the exact usage but my bill was three times normal.

For reference, a typical residential swimming pool is about 20,000 gallons. A hose bib might flow 10 gallons per minute or more which would be about 15,000 gallons in 24 hours.

Does your place irrigate with reclaimed water? Are there any exterior taps that are potable water? Is this bill for potable, reclaim, or both? Municipalities that use reclaimed water usually (around here, at least) meter them separately because reclaim is provided at a lower rate since there is no sewer impact.

If this bill is for potable water then he is also being charged for the sewer impact of the excess usage. Usually in cases like this the utility company will waive the sewer impact of the increased usage and only bill for the water. If he pushes this, tell him you want proof of what he actually paid, not what was originally billed.

The bill has too be for potable water. They don't irrigate. The property is 98% concrete. They have a 3' wide section of crab grass the length of the building that separates the apartment building from a funeral home parting lot.

There is one outdoor spigot, that doesn't have a knob on it for obvious reasons. I could see my neighbor washing his 15 year mini-van in the parking lot if it had a knob.

My guess the sewer and water are in one bill. I haven't see any official bills, just the letter saying I owe from the property management. I have heard my MIL mention sewer and water had gone up (MIL lives 5 blocks away). I assume they are both in one bill.

I wasn't gonna do this but....(Mention the name) I checked reviews online, now I have too. Two sites have ~ 10 reviews of their experiences with this company.

"Dolejs (Pronounced Doh-lesh) Property Management.", Both site have people complaining about water. Ha!!!

Not about being billed, but them not fixing the water problem! LOL.

http://www.yelp.com/biz/dolejs-property-management-lyons

http://www.topix.com/forum/city/lyons-il/TS1GVD9B5Q8DB4SF8

 

[Rhumbline]

That makes sense.

If there's no reclaim, then it's all on one bill. Sewer is usually billed based on potable water usage. The idea is that everything that comes into the house eventually goes into the toilet or other drain.

When you have a big leak or other event that obviously didn't get transferred to the sewer, your utility will usually waive the sewer impact fee for that amount.

The best example around here is people filling a swimming pool. The water company knows that it isn't going into the sewer so they give you a pass once a year.

It sounds like you're on solid ground.

 

[bethebrew]

Not to hijack OP's thread, and if you'd like to take this to PM, just shoot me a message and I can help you out a little.
First things first, you are going to need to get a state professionally licensed surveyor out there to retrace your deed on the ground.
If in fact someone is attempting an adverse possession on your property, simple written notification to them on your part will effectively and immediately negate the criteria that is in most states (that even allow it), nearly identical to what Rhumbline cites. Here in Ohio, it's 25 years. That being said, a surveyor can have all the evidence in your favor, and a judge has the right to toss it all and rule against you. Kinda BS, but just is.
Prescriptive easements are a whole other critter. VERY subjective, and proof either way, for or against, is difficult at best.

As mentioned by others- I am not an attorney, nor in the legal profession, I'm just a surveyor, but been around the block once or twice. [emoji16]

I already had the survey, and it's actually created a situation where I could proceed on an adverse possession case (the line is way over on my side) but my lawyer advised against it even though the surveyor said I "should" win. So I'm holding off. The fence line has been there for 30 years as has my barn that's way over on "his" side. The lawyer said exactly what you did, the judge could still screw me for trying to establish adverse possession.

BUT, since his property deed was written same time as mine, he "theoretically" has the same problem to his in this case south side.

I do have an easement and water rights to cross same neighbors land that he doesn't think I have but will be getting the lawyer letter to confirm that, and the surveyor had it all laid out until the water rose to record heights and relocated my pipe.

Anyway I did manage to tie lots of water into this thread so hopefully OP will forgive me.

 

[Schlenkerla]

NP - bethebrew. It'll cost you a beer.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Update - My wife goes to see Dolejs. Says she's not going to pay. She didn't use that much water, and that she's asked for it to repaired multiple times.

Mr Dolejs says it's her fault that the leaks got worse because she let the leaks go, causing greater wear to the faucet, thus increasing more leakage. Essentially claiming that the leaking water created erosion to the brass hardware and o-rings.

She's calls me into the office to argue. He tells me the same, thing and mentions its like soil erosion.

I said no, it's from not replacing faucets, referring to repeated need to replace the o-rings and the brass stems and that's it's a band aide to a major plumbing problem. Its about old faucets, replace the faucets.

He said if you want to decline to pay do so in writing. I will.

 

[Rhumbline]

I'll start off with the obligatory "I am not a lawyer" but I had some time to dig around and, if you haven't already found this, it may be helpful. Print them out and hand them to your fellow renters.

Assuming you are still in Illinois you have very good protection against just what your landlord is trying to do.

Here's a link to the statutes page, scroll down to "LandLord and Tenant"

http://ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/ilcs2.asp?ChapterID=62

But here's a few good bits:
From this doc... http://ilga.gov/legislation/ilcs/ilcs3.asp?ActID=2207&ChapterID=62

Any sums the tenant or tenants, as the case may be, pay for water, gas or electrical service that the landlord or his or her agent was required to pay may be deducted from the rent due by the tenant or tenants, and the total rent is diminished by the amount the tenant or tenants, as the case may be, have paid for the continuation of the water, gas or electrical service.

and I think you said there are shared facilities such as a laundry room...

(a) No landlord shall rent or cause to be rented any unit in which the tenant is responsible by agreement, implication, or otherwise for direct payment for utility service to the utility company and in which the utility company billing for that service includes any service to common areas of the building or other units or areas used or occupied by persons other than the individual tenant and those occupying the unit with the tenant on the utility account, unless, before offering an initial lease or a renewal lease, accepting a security deposit, or otherwise entering into an agreement with the prospective tenant to let the premises:

it then goes on to list all of the conditions that must be met before the landlord can do what he's trying to do.

Give him hell!

 

[Schlenkerla]

Wow - Thank You!

I printed out the utility statute and shared it with the other tenants who got billing notices.

Funny thing is we have common water between six units, but only 3 of units got letters demanding payment.

So the my older neighbor who has his wife, daughter, son and grand children living with him, no bill. The 90 year old lady living alone, she got no bill. The typically drunk, single, middle aged, man who always burns food (pan frying burgers) while passed-out and inadvertently summons the fire department, got no bill. Go figure......

Basically it was determined on ability to pay. Each unit billed have people who hold down jobs.

 

[mongoose33]

Wow - Thank You!

I printed out the utility statute and shared it with the other tenants who got billing notices.

Funny thing is we have common water between six units, but only 3 of units got letters demanding payment.

So the my older neighbor who has his wife, daughter, son and grand children living with him, no bill. The 90 year old lady living alone, she got no bill. The typically drunk, single, middle aged, man who always burns food (pan frying burgers) while passed-out and inadvertently summons the fire department, got no bill. Go figure......

Basically it was determined on ability to pay. Each unit billed have people who hold down jobs.

They're just trying to shake you down. But we knew that.

Did you ever get a copy of the lease?

 

[Schlenkerla]

Not yet, the schools were closed all the way to the 4th of January.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Sent this....


Dolejs Property Management Services, Inc
7847 Ogden Ave
Lyons, IL 60534

Subject: Water Bill - 8/31/15 - 10/31/15

Attention Property Manager & Owner,

We have been living in your building XXXX Des Plaines Ave North Riverside happily for 5+ years. We have been good tenants, get along well with our neighbors, pay our rent on time and have reported problems as we see them.

I respect your property and I have called when I seen damaged door hinges, falling gutters, reported hall lights out, smoke detector malfunctions, large oil leaks in the parking lot, and misc plumbing problems. I am a former homeowner, so I understand the importance of incidental and routine maintenance to sustain the value of one's assets. Therefore if I see something wrong I make point to report it to you.

Furthermore, I grew up in North Riverside have strong ties to the community as my father was a Police Sargeant for over 30 years. I know all of the fire and police personnel so if there is an issue especially with the bar next door, such as fights, drinking, throwing bottles etc I will get an immediate response. I have also asked the police to patrol around our building more often since there are so many issues with the bar especially since the bar put in a outside patio.

We received your letters about the water consumption. Its unfortunate about the circumstance that lead to the high water usage. That said, we disagree as to who is at fault and who is responsible for the situation. By observation of the dates in the letter, it goes back several months. Why did it take so long for you to address the problem?

The facts regarding this matter are this;

I have repeatedly notified you of the dripping faucet in the bathtub. Your maintenance staff have repeatedly shown a failure to address the faucet in a timely fashion. Numerous times I have reported the issue only to have to call back numerous times spanning weeks to get the issue fixed. One time I had to call and reiterate that hot water was coming out and could injure my young son.
The dripping faucet keeps coming back around every 6 months. Since it has started dripping I have called on it at least 7 times. It appears obvious the repair work done is insufficient to resolve the problem long term.

In fact the last time I called to report the dripping faucet was in September 2015. All that was done and has been done was they tighten the faucet. So, if the faucet was dripping in December the “fix” lasted only 2 ½ months.

In fact when the faucet was “fixed” this last time in Dec it does not drip however now when you turn the water on in the bath tube hot water shoots out of the handles of the faucet hardly “fixed” correctly.

The single meter is connected to common area appliances like the hot water heater, the boiler, the clothes washer and wash basin. Therefore we as individual tenants can not be responsible for the consumption of building appliances that use the common metered water.

The floor around the water heater shows water stains on the concrete which is evidence of water leakage.

The floor around the boiler also shows water stains on the concrete which is evidence of water leakage. In fact the same time in December 2015 when they checked the apartments someone came and fixed the boiler leaks. This could be where the major water loss comes from.

Tenants can not be held responsible for reporting problems outside their apartment that are not visibly noticeable when entering and leaving the building.

The Illinois State Statute 765 ILCS 735 Rental Property Utility Service Act, Section 1.2 (a) paragraph 3, forbids you to suggest or require us to collect money for utility bills. In essence that is what you are doing when you ask for half of the tenants to fund the whole building’s usage.

In review of the letter, the number of gallons used in two months (8/31/15 - 10/31/15) totals 1,878,695. That’s a usage 5,218 gallons per day, per rental unit. Essentially each unit is filling a 10’ wide x18’ long and 4’ deep swimming pool every day. How is this possible? The amount of loss water is inconceivable from a few dripping faucets.

According to the EPA a person uses 80 to 100 gallons per day. The EPA also says a bad plumbing leak for household of 4 loses as much 12,000 additional gallons a year or 33 gallons per day. If my faucet was dripping in the bathtub it was a very slow drip one that I did not even noticed since it had been fixed 2 ½ months earlier and not anywhere close to a bad plumbing leak as described by the EPA. Again the amount of loss water is inconceivable from a dripping faucets.

I have done my due diligence to report the dripping faucet in my bathtub. Therefore, I am declining your request in writing for a payment of a partial water bill that you claim to be $605.70.

Best Regards,


Signed Representative of Dolejs Property Managment only as acknowledgement that they recieved this letter

 

[mongoose33]

Not bad, not bad. Let us know what response you get, if any.

 

[Schlenkerla]

Will do.

 

[beernbourbon]

Nice. Excellent statement of facts. Doubtful they will respond, but if they do I'm sure it will be something to the effect of 'we have decided to not make you pay' like they are doing you a favor

 

[treacheroustexan]

Yes please keep us updated. Interested to see what happens!

 

[Rhumbline]

Well done.

The only thing I would have liked to see were exact dates when you contacted them. Impossible to do now, but for future reference, I'd us email if possible for all communication.

it's also a bit wordy. remember, every word you type can potentially be used against you or can cloud the issue.

"Based on state and local statutes listed below, I am declining to pay the assessment of $XXX.XX requested in your communication of December, XX, 20XX"

(list statutes)

 

[Quadrupled]

Updates?

 

[Schlenkerla]

Nothing yet.

I spoke to one of the other tenants that's month to month. They haven't paid, they asked about making payments. I don't think he can do anything or even afford to pay.

My wife's concerned next month they won't renew the lease. I still say f'em. Threaten to move out if they really jack up the rent. A small increase could be understood for the increased water rate.

I'm not worried about it, I'm sure we can find another place. The wife doesn't see it this way. She's mainly concerned about staying in the school district.

 

[Schlenkerla]

My wife said they are doing an emergency audit of the whole building to check the water. She thinks the letter may have woke them up to the problem thats its more than a drippy faucet.

I start to really wonder if the meter is calibrated correctly. I'd shut down all water the pull water directly from the meter into gallon jugs looking for an equivalent meter reading. Somehow I think its reading liters or something other than gallons.