Legal Sources - Regarding Lease Laws or Renters Rights

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Schlenkerla

Schlenkerla

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I got a notice from my apartment complex. They have had water problems in the building that I live in currently. The usage is collected by one meter and paid by the property management. The building has 6 units. They claim the tenants are guilty of not reporting leaks. Despite there is visual evidence of central boiler leaks and a central water heater.

Therefore the property management said they are going to split the overage, for the spike in water costs to all 6 units.

The lease says the tenants are responsible for ongoing maintenance. It also says its the responsibility of the property management to provide water and heat.

I got paper notice saying its a bill for $605.75 and I will get another charge next month also. The excessive charges go back as far as August of 2015. Ironically the village water source has raised water rates this 2nd half of the year.

The rent or the agreed payment amount is $835.

My thought, is to tell them sorry about the water bill, you need to watch the water bill if it spikes, maybe you need to conduct inspections more frequently.

When I got the first notice I said to them you have worked on leaky faucets at least once a quarter in this apartment in the last five years. I don't recall you ever yanking out an old faucet. I also said I'm a former home owner. Had a house for 10 years. Built from new, never had leaks or had to replace a faucet. I said maybe its time to replace faucets.

I'd like to know where I can find my rights about the leasing. The copy of lease I have is incomplete, improperly copied. One section says I am responsible for all maintenance and upkeep of the unit. To me that's just cleaning and reporting issues.

I don't think they can charge me for water.

Frankly, I don't think they are billing everybody. A neighbor who is retirement age, and poor, and frequently has late notices posted to his door, did NOT get a bill.

If you know sources for renters rights, send them to me. Interested in Illinois.

Thanks
 
I'm sorry I'm not much help but I don't think that's right at all. I have never heard of anyone charging for a water leak when water is included in your rent. The only thing I could find on Illinois, is that the landlord is responsible for making necessary repairs. If they are working on water leaks that much, obviously they are not doing something right. If the lease says you pay the water, then pay it, but if water is supposed to be included, leak or not, I would not pay that especially if it has been a known issue. And that fact they wouldn't bill everyone included on the meter makes things worse for their case. Also found these numbers to call so you can ask someone in illinois: The Illinois Department of Human Rights - Chicago: (312) 814-6200, TDD: (312) 263-1579;
Springfield: (217) 785-5100, TDD: (217) 785-5125; Housing complaints: 1-800-662-3942.
 
This is one of those situations where there's something that seems very fishy to my non-lawyer eyes going on, and given that laws on this stuff very not only state to state but county to county and municipality to municipality, my best advice would be to discuss it with a lawyer. If it were me, locally to my area, that sounds like the landlord is not fulfilling their legal obligation and you're not obligated to pay for it (with local tenant's rights laws trumping anything the landlord made you sign), but your local laws and lease may vary.
 
I would think they would need to be a completely open book, not just give you a one line bill. I wouldn't pay it, at least until I saw some very good backup and justification. I'm not sure how they can charge you or hold you responsible for maintenance, that is very open ended and if you ended up doing anything considered a capital improvement you might even be able to slap a lien on the property. RE laws are archaic that way...
 
I would seek a local assistance, our ex landlord try to get ride of us by not renewing our lease after we complained about repair not being done, within 30 minutes of us dropping a letter from a local tenant advocacy group reminding them of their right and obligation, they dropped a lease renewal at our doors. like said above every area is different so seek local knowledge, I found his in a few second search they might not be the one for you but will probably able to point you toward local assistance .

http://tenant.org/about.php

good luck
 
I would suggest you find a local source of info that will be familiar with your statutes.

do they have any proof of the cause of the excessive use? I would think that even if you are liable, if the overages go back to August they had some responsibility to notice this and take action to limit your damages.

Good luck, let us know how it turns out.
 
Lepetitnormand said:
I would seek a local assistance, our ex landlord try to get ride of us by not renewing our lease after we complained about repair not being done, within 30 minutes of us dropping a letter from a local tenant advocacy group reminding them of their right and obligation, they dropped a lease renewal at our doors. like said above every area is different so seek local knowledge, I found his in a few second search they might not be the one for you but will probably able to point you toward local assistance .

http://tenant.org/about.php

good luck
Click to expand...

Good suggestion. Start with local tenant advocacy group they know the laws and procedures.
In the big scheme of things its a small matter financially so not worth hiring an attorney yet, tenant advocacy group can advise for free...and can help you escalate into something worth hiring an attorney for.
 
Jeez - the landlord couldn't wait until a little closer to Christmas to go all Grinch/Scrooge on you?

Definitely call a tenant advocacy group, if for nothing else, to get a recommendation for a good lawyer who knows what he/she is doing in this area. Might help to get the neighbors on board with you to share the lawyer's fee. You might be in luck and there could be a fee-shifting statute/regulation where the landlord would have to pay your lawyer. It's worth checking into it.
 
You can also contact your state's attorney general. They usually have a hotline for these types of consumer protection problems. I know our state's (MA) AG's office had a division to handle potential landlord abuse.
 
jpakstis said:
You can also contact your state's attorney general. They usually have a hotline for these types of consumer protection problems. I know our state's (MA) AG's office had a division to handle potential landlord abuse.
Click to expand...


Yes - this. Wisconsin is the same way.
 
I'm a landlord so let me give you my take on this.

1. I'm not sure there's anything necessarily wrong with making the tenant responsible for "ongoing maintenance" in a lease. I don't do it, and never will, because it's not in the interest of the tenant to do it right. I think it's very bad practice but it was in the lease you signed. But I think it's probably legally allowable. The problem comes in the quality of any "repairs," to say nothing of whether they're done safely.

Further, "ongoing maintenance" is a very vague term--and there must be some line which, when crossed, it becomes the landlord's responsibility. If a pipe leaked in a wall and caused damage, would any reasonable person put that on the tenant? No. If a storm broke all the windows, is that the tenant's responsibility? I'd say no--but what matters more is what the lease says.

2. If the landlord is required by lease to pay the water, then I don't see how any overages can be put back on you. Unless your lease says you have to pay any overages or something like that, it's the landlord's responsibility.

And, since there are common areas over which no tenant has responsibility (water heater, meter area, anyplace not in a tenant's apartment), there's no way to prove that any overages are the fault of the tenants.

3. I *never* pay any consumable like water, heat, electricity. If I'm paying it, there's no incentive on the part of the tenant to conserve it. If I were to pay it, I'd have to assume there would be much higher consumption than if the tenant were responsible--and thus the tenant would be paying much more than if they paid it themselves. I always tell tenants those bills will be the lowest if *they* are paying them, and they'll be motivated to tell me if there's a leaky faucet.

That said, sometimes in multi-unit apartment buildings there is only one meter, which means it's impossible to separately meter them. I suspect that's your case.

However, if there are connections for a washer/dryer in the apartments and the landlord lets you have them, then the landlord is an idiot. One reason I don't pay water is I furnish a washer and dryer; if I paid water the tenants would have everybody doing their laundry there, on my nickel.

4. Since you have no legible and complete copy of the lease, this puts you in a bad spot--you need to get one, because without it you cannot convincingly demonstrate the landlord can't do this. Maybe there's a clause in the lease that says the landlord can pass on billing overages to the tenants. I doubt it, and if one tenant was a HUGE water waster how would it be fair for the other tenants to have to bear that burden?

So get a copy of that lease. Maybe you have a lawyer friend who would request one on your behalf? (They could say it was pre-legal action discovery or some such lawyer mumbo-jumbo).

Alternatively, can you get a copy from one of the other tenants?

Finally, why is the lease incomplete? I'm reasonably certain you have to be given a complete and legible copy--and if what you have been given is incomplete, then it seems to me you have a right to know what you're responsible for.


-->Note well: I'm not a lawyer, I don't play one on TV, and I didn't stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night so take the above with as large a legal grain of salt as you like. As others have noted, there must be some resource at the state or local level you can consult. Perhaps you have a lawyer friend who can help you out pro bono.

But it cannot pay to retain a lawyer for $100; mine charges more than twice that per hour to talk to him. So get a copy of the lease, a true and complete copy, and check out your legal options in Illinois.
 
Awesome and thanks!

After reading some of the Illinois Landlord and Tenent Rights publication from SIU Carbondale Law School, all they can do is go to small claims court.

It seems like any expense outside the agreed rent needs to be settled in small claims court.

If they try to shut off utilities to make us pay, they will be in breach of contract for the water. They can't shut off AC while I'm a tenant. Its in our name and its a definite no-no according to the SIU document. That would not help their case in court.

I suppose at lease renewal time they could raise the rent. To me that's the only easy course to recover water rates increases and their incurred loss. Somewhat expected for the water rates increase.

Also read that the security deposit should be fully refunded with 6% compounded interest. The only way they can hold it is if they demonstrate damage to the property. They have show documentation of damage and bills of repair being done and they must do it in 30 days. Been here 6 years, so the will have to choke on that.

SWMBO wants to leave this place. The bar next door is open to 4AM. They added a 24 x 24 outdoor deck for smokers, so it's loud all night on the weekends.

Thanks again.

Merry Christmas & Happy New Year.
 
Regarding the lease, my wife in her infinate wisdom gave it to the school district to prove residency. The photo copied page is all she had, not sure why she would do that. Dumb.

I can get another copy. I'm sure.
 
IMongoose33 - thanks for your insight. I didn't see your post until after my SIU post.

Regarding repairs, we have never done them personally. The property management sends a maintenance man.

They do have a clause about not being responsible for damage to leasee property. Its vague, implying acts of god are the responsibility of the leasee. They also have statements about they aren't responsible for damage due to criminal activity.

FWIW - The tenant down stairs had a fridge go out. Maintenance brought them a used fridge. The used fridge didn't work well. Then called maintenance again. When they repaired the used fridge they charged them $275 for fixing their used fridge. No tenents own the appliances. The guys wife paid it without challenging them. Her husband went ballistic.
 
Looking at the usage report they claim 1,110,000 gallons were used by 6 units in two months

Thats, 185,000 gallons per unit. Broken over two months 92,500 gallons in a month.

I can't see 3 faucets loose that much per unit.

They have too have a typo...
 
Schlenkerla said:
Looking at the usage report they claim 1,110,000 gallons were used by 6 units in two months

Thats, 185,000 gallons per unit. Broken over two months 92,500 gallons in a month.

I can't see 3 faucets loose that much per unit.

They have too have a typo...
Click to expand...
Admit, you're running a micro brewery. Aren't you. ;)
 
Aside from a gross reading error, could there be an underground leak after the meter? A million gallons is a lot of water to lose without visible signs or damage somewhere.

Was the water meter replaced and the water company forgot to note the starting number?

I'm not saying you're responsible for any of this or finding out what or where the problem lies, but I would be curious to know if I were you.
 
I didn't see it already in the thread but be sure to pay your rent on time and in full. Carry on like nothing is going on but make sure to send a letter to him/her about your dispute over the water bill but be cordial. Get a receipt.
 
Schlenkerla said:
Mongoose33 - thanks for your insight. I didn't see your post until after my SIU post.

Regarding repairs, we have never done them personally. The property management sends a maintenance man.

They do have a clause about not being responsible for damage to leasee property. Its vague, implying acts of god are the responsibility of the leasee. They also have statements about they aren't responsible for damage due to criminal activity.

FWIW - The tenant down stairs had a fridge go out. Maintenance brought them a used fridge. The used fridge didn't work well. Then called maintenance again. When they repaired the used fridge they charged thern $275 for fixing their used fridge. No tenents own the appliances. The guys wife paid it without challenging them. Her husband went ballistic.
Click to expand...

OK--by now I'm sure you've figured it out--get out of there!

They send a "maintenance man" and then make YOU responsible for the repair cost? When you don't have any say in the matter, control over the fix, or choice of repairman?

Unbelievable. Get out of there as soon as you can. Perhaps in complaining they might be willing to cut short your lease? You have no control over how much the repairs might cost you, and the shenanigans above with replacing a bad fridge with a used one, and THEN make the tenant pay for the costs to repair the used one?

Unbelievable. Oh, I said that.

Nightmare landlord. Get as far away as you can, as soon as you can.
 
mongoose33 is steering you correctly (I also have a few rentals).

I doubt they will go after you, but be sure to check your lease on leaving early (hate for them to ding your credit) but you should be trying to get out of there sooner rather than later.
 
He's been there six years, it's too late to leave early!

The real problem is that his landlord is probably mafia the way they are extorting money. Be careful when they come over with the pipe wrenches.

That is a ridiculous amount of water as has been pointed out. Major leak time, or someone just leaves the faucets running 24/7.

Get out of Illinois, and for god sakes don't move to CA either. Find a nice state where people behave.
 
bethebrew said:
He's been there six years, it's too late to leave early!
Click to expand...

That depends. If a new lease wasn't signed after the initial period, they are on a month to month basis now and he can leave. If the lease has been renewed, the landlord can sue to enforce it (rent will be owed through the lease period whether he leaves or not). The water thing might be enough to break the lease and prevent this, but it will cost some money to find out.
 
jrcrilly said:
That depends. If a new lease wasn't signed after the initial period, they are on a month to month basis now and he can leave. If the lease has been renewed, the landlord can sue to enforce it (rent will be owed through the lease period whether he leaves or not). The water thing might be enough to break the lease and prevent this, but it will cost some money to find out.
Click to expand...

True enough. Can you help me with my adverse possession and prescriptive easement situations as well?
 
I'm not a lawyer, but I'm pretty sure a landlord cannot change the terms of your lease until it is time for a new lease. Sounds like they are attempting to push you out. Perhaps they meter each unit... Anyway if they know you brew, it could be they think the extra usage if from you. Each state has consumer advocates, attorney generals that can help you. Good luck.
 
There's no mafia or organized crime element that I know of per say in this. Even though I'm in Chicago.

They tend to take advantage of people that don't know any better. They have elderly/immigrant tenants that tend not to make waves.

I'm neither. A full blooded American white male. They have never met me. Only my wife and they think she can be bull****ted. They don't know her very well. She's Irish and a real hot head at times, daughter of cop, with same no nonsense attitude.

I agree dispute this in writing. Just so it doesn't escalate verbally.

At the end of the day the water bill is in their name. Now they are figuring out this is a bad thing, especially since this is on one meter.

The owner is 80/90 year old lady. The property management manages a lot of property in the west suburbs. They are Czech.

The only reason I say that is the mafia comment. Despite the fact I'm one suburb from Cicero. The suburb of Cicero is no longer Italian. Mostly Hispanic. This area is slowly becoming more Hispanic. It was predominantly white working class, heavy in Polish, Czech, Italian, and Greek. Most white middle class people are migrating to the far west suburbs for new developments and modern housing.

I also live two doors down from the city hall and the cop shop. No worries about strong arm b.s.
 
While I brew, I don't brew in this apartment. My water usage is limited to washing dishes, by hand, cooking with water from the kitchen faucet. Then what's common with one full bath room. Mostly with one adult and a child living in the apartment Monday through Friday.

They have central laundry facility that's pay as you go. My wife does laundry for free at her mother's house.

I have a work apartment 3 hours south of Chicago. All brewing water usage is from that location.

Water use is minimal.
 
bethebrew said:
True enough. Can you help me with my adverse possession and prescriptive easement situations as well?
Click to expand...

I'm not any kind of lawyer, but I had to look up adverse possession a few years back when some idiot was trying to stir up crap.

What I found is that even in states where it is allowed, it's practically impossible to pull off. The bar is set so high that there's a reason you never hear of anyone actually doing it.
 
Rhumbline said:
I'm not any kind of lawyer, but I had to look up adverse possession a few years back when some idiot was trying to stir up crap.

What I found is that even in states where it is allowed, it's practically impossible to pull off. The bar is set so high that there's a reason you never hear of anyone actually doing it.
Click to expand...

Interesting. My neighbor stirred up some **** which opened up a can of worms that seemed easy to capture but on second thought perhaps not so much. My lawyer said the same thing you are, and quoted me 10-20k to "fight the good fight" to possess what is pretty much mine already. At least I know the deed descriptions or deed calls is in question, and I got water rights and an easement clarified.
 
Schlenkerla said:
While I brew, I don't brew in this apartment. My water usage is limited to washing dishes, by hand, cooking with water from the kitchen faucet. Then what's common with one full bath room. Mostly with one adult and a child living in the apartment Monday through Friday.

They have central laundry facility that's pay as you go. My wife does laundry for free at her mother's house.

I have a work apartment 3 hours south of Chicago. All brewing water usage is from that location.

Water use is minimal.
Click to expand...

If it's yellow, are you letting it mellow?

Are you collecting rain water?
 
bethebrew said:
Interesting. My neighbor stirred up some **** which opened up a can of worms that seemed easy to capture but on second thought perhaps not so much. My lawyer said the same thing you are, and quoted me 10-20k to "fight the good fight" to possess what is pretty much mine already. At least I know the deed descriptions or deed calls is in question, and I got water rights and an easement clarified.
Click to expand...

What makes it nearly impossible is the definitions of the words in the following...

(a) The person and the predecessors in interest of the person have maintained actual, open, notorious, exclusive, hostile and continuous possession of the property for a period of 10 years;
 
bethebrew said:
Interesting. My neighbor stirred up some **** which opened up a can of worms that seemed easy to capture but on second thought perhaps not so much. My lawyer said the same thing you are, and quoted me 10-20k to "fight the good fight" to possess what is pretty much mine already. At least I know the deed descriptions or deed calls is in question, and I got water rights and an easement clarified.
Click to expand...


Not to hijack OP's thread, and if you'd like to take this to PM, just shoot me a message and I can help you out a little.
First things first, you are going to need to get a state professionally licensed surveyor out there to retrace your deed on the ground.
If in fact someone is attempting an adverse possession on your property, simple written notification to them on your part will effectively and immediately negate the criteria that is in most states (that even allow it), nearly identical to what Rhumbline cites. Here in Ohio, it's 25 years. That being said, a surveyor can have all the evidence in your favor, and a judge has the right to toss it all and rule against you. Kinda BS, but just is.
Prescriptive easements are a whole other critter. VERY subjective, and proof either way, for or against, is difficult at best.

As mentioned by others- I am not an attorney, nor in the legal profession, I'm just a surveyor, but been around the block once or twice. [emoji16]
 
To gather a sense of ridiculousness.... They, the management, are figuring 92,500 gallons were wasted in a month on one unit.

According to the EPA.

The Facts on Leaks:
The average household's leaks can account for more than 10,000 gallons of water wasted every year, or the amount of water needed to wash 270 loads of laundry.

Faucets and Showerheads:
A showerhead leaking at 10 drips per minute wastes more than 500 gallons per year. That's the amount of water it takes to wash 60 loads of dishes in your dishwasher.

Leak Detection:
A good method to check for leaks is to examine your winter water usage. It's likely that a family of four has a serious leak problem if its winter water use exceeds 12,000 gallons per month.

Toilets:
If you do need to replace the entire toilet, look for a WaterSense labeled model. If the average family replaces its older, inefficient toilets with new WaterSense labeled ones, it could save 13,000 gallons per year. Retrofitting the house could save the family nearly $2,400 in water and wastewater bills over the lifetime of the toilets.

Frankly the odds of 6 units losing this much water, would very low. People would have to have faucets running.

I wonder if a sump pump could pump 1.11M gallons continually without burning out the motor.

Common sense tells me the number of gallons is wrong or the meter is messed up or set wrong. Like the units are in liters.
 

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