Leaky keg again...

[Homercidal]

Ok, so I have learned my lesson about losing CO2 in my fridge. Past few weeks I've had the CO2 Bottle out of the fridge and just topping off my keg when it needed it. I finally put the tank in the fridge, but I keep the valve off when i'm not topping up.

So all of a sudden, overnight it seems, the pressure in the keg is gone. The QD is connected, but somehow the CO2 is venting out. Luckily, I saved the cost of a refill by having the tank shut off.

WTH??

New O-rings and everything. How do other people keep their gas connected all the time?

 

[masonsjax]

Lube up well and you'll get a good seal. Use keg lube on all rubber parts and seal the lid with about 30 PSI to make sure the lid seats well. You can spray some star san or soapy water on your posts and lid to try and identify the leaky area. If it's the lid leaking, you might need to replace the plastic feet on the latch, or put some cardboard under them to make it pull harder.

 

[Zen_Brew]

That is very odd. My co2 is always connected and the tank is in my kegerator. I'm gonna throw some things out, but likely you have verified all this.

depending on what regulator you have you should be replacing the main washer where the regulator goes onto the tank. Some of the newer Taprites have washerless designs.

you should hit all threaded connections with a couple wraps of teflon tape. Don't forget the ones where your line transitions to the keg connectors if you are not directly connected to barbed keg connectors.

All your keg washers/gaskets should get a smear (that is a jewish deli unit of measure) of some keg lubricant to include the post connectors and the poppits.

If you are using cobra taps you might try submerging them in a starsan solution under pressure to make sure they close all the way and hold pressure.

Also verify you have the correct disconnects for each post. They are just a bit different in size, but can be forced onto the wrong post.

Good luck

 

[Homercidal]

Yep, I've done all of that. Only thing is, the last time I lubed up the O-rings, I ended up with a black, sticky mess from the O-ring all over the QD. I've since replaced the O-ring and forwent the lube, thinking that it was causing the O-ring to go bad.

It's just frustrating that it can sit in there for weeks and then all of a sudden, BAM, it's empty. I'm wondering if the gas post is too close to the back of the fridge. I keep it an inch or two away, because the back can get to freezing temps. I think it's the only wall with lines running through it. Perhaps the O-ring is shrinking too much from the cold??

 

[Zen_Brew]

What kind of lube are you using? An inert lube shouldn't have attacked the o-ring, but a petoleum based lube might.

After each use I soak the o-rings in a mild oxiclean solution for a bit, and rinse them. Then I soak them in some star san solution. Then I put just a pinch of Petrol Gel keg lube on my finger (a bit more for the big lid ring) and rub the o-ring betwen my fingers and slide them on the post or keg lid as applicable.

I think it is unlikely it is a temperature problem from the back wall of your kegerator. It is possible I suppose, but they are designed to be used at soda serving temps which is probably mid to upper 30's. I'd think you'd have to get pretty far below that to shrink them enough for them to allow gas to escape.

 

[Zen_Brew]

Just for the sake of clarity. You should have an o-ring on each dip tube slid all the way up and butted against the fluted portion of each tube at the top. My dip tube rings are flat not rounded. Then insert the tube from the top of the keg so the o-ring sits between the top of the post and the screw on post. Not trying to insinuate you have them on wrong, just covering the bases

I find it is easiest to get a good lube on the dip tube o-rings if they are removed and then slid back on.

It is also possible one of your kegs has some deformatin around the main lid gasket or where the dip tube o-rings sit and it is enough that when the keg cools the o-ring doesn't sit correctly. Do you have more than one keg? I'd try hooking them up one at a time and see if you can determine which one is giving you the problem.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Is it possible the leak is not in the keg, but rather the co2 delivery system / connections (regulator to ball lock connector)? Do you have clamps on your co2 lines? Do you have the fiber gasket between the regulator and co2 tank?
Are you having a problem with just one keg or is this just the first you have tried?

I know it can be frustrating... hang in there. When my wife bought me a kegorator (that's how I can PROVE she loves me), I went through 2 or 3 tanks of co2, 1 per keg. I learned things need to be snug/tight/sealed. You are not likely to hear a co2 leak that will empty a 5 pound tank overnight.

Good luck.
Ed

 

[brettg20]

Once in a while my keg will be leaky after kegging, but I always fix the problem before carbonating. Usually keg lube rubbed liberally on the big o-ring does the trick. If not I turn the top 180 degree and close and am fine.

 

[Homercidal]

I am using Keg Lube (except on the O-ring as stated before. I thought I might have had one bad keg previously, but that one is sitting empty on the floor and still has pressure, so I guess it's not that.

Funny thing is, I've had this tank on the keg for like 2 weeks before moving into kegerator, with 30 lbs of pressure. Then 2-3 weeks after I move into the fridge (keeping the tank turned off unless I'm topping the keg off) it suddenly decides to empty overnight.

I will have to check the Keg Posts for teflon tape. I might not have it on all kegs by accident. And I agree the keg lube should not have done what it done to the O-rings. I might try that again and see what happens. I'd like to get the temp down just a little more. It's probably colder than most of you guys have it, but I'd like the blonde ale just a little colder. Note that this happened about 2 days after I dropped the temp just slightly. It's been running about 44 I think up to that point.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

I am using Keg Lube (except on the O-ring as stated before. I thought I might have had one bad keg previously, but that one is sitting empty on the floor and still has pressure, so I guess it's not that.

Funny thing is, I've had this tank on the keg for like 2 weeks before moving into kegerator, with 30 lbs of pressure. Then 2-3 weeks after I move into the fridge (keeping the tank turned off unless I'm topping the keg off) it suddenly decides to empty overnight.

I will have to check the Keg Posts for teflon tape. I might not have it on all kegs by accident. And I agree the keg lube should not have done what it done to the O-rings. I might try that again and see what happens. I'd like to get the temp down just a little more. It's probably colder than most of you guys have it, but I'd like the blonde ale just a little colder. Note that this happened about 2 days after I dropped the temp just slightly. It's been running about 44 I think up to that point.

Lowering the temp will cause the co2 to be absorbed into the beer, lowering the pressure in the keg and "could" make it appear you lost pressure.

I would not suggest teflon tape on the co2 threads. Most of those fittings are MFL and made to seal metal to metal, if teflon tape gets between the seal points it can cause leaks.

I would try pressurizing the keg again in the fridge and shutting the valve off again... just like you did before. If you leave the co2 hose attached to the keg you should see the keg pressure on the gauge even with the co2 tank valve closed. After a few rounds of that, see if the gauge looks like it is holding and if the keg sounds like it is taking on less gas.

 

[brettg20]

I am using Keg Lube (except on the O-ring as stated before. I thought I might have had one bad keg previously, but that one is sitting empty on the floor and still has pressure, so I guess it's not that.

You need to put keg Lube on the big O-ring. That is where you will be leaking from. I don't know what problems you had before, but buy "keg-lube" that is food safe. Wash the o-ring before lubing and I don't know why there would be a problem. 99% of my leaks are through the big O-ring which I fix within 5 minutes.

But if you have one that is empty and still has co2 then it sounds like maybe a beer line or a disconnect. You may want to check where the gas line fits on the gas disconnect. Make sure you have this tightened and clamped down with a hose clamp so no gas leaks here.

 

[Homercidal]

Lowering the temp will cause the co2 to be absorbed into the beer, lowering the pressure in the keg and "could" make it appear you lost pressure.

I would not suggest teflon tape on the co2 threads. Most of those fittings are MFL and made to seal metal to metal, if teflon tape gets between the seal points it can cause leaks.

I would try pressurizing the keg again in the fridge and shutting the valve off again... just like you did before. If you leave the co2 hose attached to the keg you should see the keg pressure on the gauge even with the co2 tank valve closed. After a few rounds of that, see if the gauge looks like it is holding and if the keg sounds like it is taking on less gas.

I doubt the amount of temp change would be enough to attribute to an absolute loss of CO2 in the keg. The only thing that really makes sense to me is that the O-ring in the Gas Post leaked. This has happened before with the tank open and I've lost all the gas in it. Just suddenly the beer doesn't flow and when I open the fridge, bam, the tank is empty.

At the temp I usually keep the beer at, 38-45, depending on what's in there, the back of the fridge can have ice covering it. At one time my flow rate went way down and I started looking for reasons, and I found the Keg Post or QD was iced up from that side of the keg resting against the back of the fridge. So now I keep both posts from touching the back. But with the tank in there too, I have to have the keg touching the back wall, or the door won't shut. One reason I want the tank outside the fridge.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

I doubt the amount of temp change would be enough to attribute to an absolute loss of CO2 in the keg. The only thing that really makes sense to me is that the O-ring in the Gas Post leaked. This has happened before with the tank open and I've lost all the gas in it. Just suddenly the beer doesn't flow and when I open the fridge, bam, the tank is empty.

At the temp I usually keep the beer at, 38-45, depending on what's in there, the back of the fridge can have ice covering it. At one time my flow rate went way down and I started looking for reasons, and I found the Keg Post or QD was iced up from that side of the keg resting against the back of the fridge. So now I keep both posts from touching the back. But with the tank in there too, I have to have the keg touching the back wall, or the door won't shut. One reason I want the tank outside the fridge.

How did you determine you had an absolute loss of co2? Did you pull the pressure relief to test, or try to pour a glass, or just hear more gas going in when you opened the tank valve? It certainly could be an o-ring, but normally, you can see that with a few sprays from s bottle of starsan (make sure you spray the pressure relief valve also, I have had them leak).

You can test your co2 delivery up to the keg by disconnecting the co2 connector from the keg with the tank valve open, then close the tank valve. The pressure gauge should show the pressure in the line. If the gauge drops over time, you have a leak in the delivery system, not the keg.

 

[Homercidal]

The liquid line going to the faucet was nearly full of air and judging by the amount of gas the keg took to fill it, I guessed it was empty, or very nearly so.

I've built dams of tape around all keg posts and tested with starsan after filling with beer, to make sure there are no leaks around the threads or poppet valves, and the have always tested fine.

I've also test the gas QD on the tank using starsan and found zero leaks.

This is what makes me think that the O-rings are leaking because until the QD and Post valves are opened, there does not seem to be a way for the gas to escape. And it doesn't seem to leak until the temp drops to a certain point

Does anyone else have a problem with their kegerator reaching the freezing point?

 

[Ohio-Ed]

The liquid line going to the faucet was nearly full of air and judging by the amount of gas the keg took to fill it, I guessed it was empty, or very nearly so.

I've built dams of tape around all keg posts and tested with starsan after filling with beer, to make sure there are no leaks around the threads or poppet valves, and the have always tested fine.

I've also test the gas QD on the tank using starsan and found zero leaks.

This is what makes me think that the O-rings are leaking because until the QD and Post valves are opened, there does not seem to be a way for the gas to escape. And it doesn't seem to leak until the temp drops to a certain point

Does anyone else have a problem with their kegerator reaching the freezing point?

I've never had a problem with o-rings seeming to leak regardless of how cold they get (not that I have tested this exhaustively).

To give you something to try...

I would start by testing your gas line (like I mentioned in my last post, and probably inside the fridge).

If the gas line holds pressure, I'd do the same test again with the disconnect attached to the keg. You will have to give it several cycles to fully absorb the co2 before it holds constant pressure.

I don't know how much experience you have with kegs, and you probably know this, but co2 is not like air pressure, when you apply an amount of co2 to the keg, the pressure will drop over time as the co2 is absorbed. The colder the beer, the more co2 it will absorb (and faster it will absorb it). In a full keg, there is not a great deal of head space to hold the co2 gas until it is absorbed, so it can drop pretty quickly. When you force carb a cold keg, you can close the tank valve, shake the keg and watch the gauge drop in less than 10 seconds, repeat and watch it again. For some reason, I'm still not 100% sure you have a leak.

 

[Homercidal]

I've never had a problem with o-rings seeming to leak regardless of how cold they get (not that I have tested this exhaustively).

To give you something to try...

I would start by testing your gas line (like I mentioned in my last post, and probably inside the fridge).

If the gas line holds pressure, I'd do the same test again with the disconnect attached to the keg. You will have to give it several cycles to fully absorb the co2 before it holds constant pressure.

I don't know how much experience you have with kegs, and you probably know this, but co2 is not like air pressure, when you apply an amount of co2 to the keg, the pressure will drop over time as the co2 is absorbed. The colder the beer, the more co2 it will absorb (and faster it will absorb it). In a full keg, there is not a great deal of head space to hold the co2 gas until it is absorbed, so it can drop pretty quickly. When you force carb a cold keg, you can close the tank valve, shake the keg and watch the gauge drop in less than 10 seconds, repeat and watch it again. For some reason, I'm still not 100% sure you have a leak.

I am familiar with CO2 absorption, which is why I know I have a leak. It's done this twice in the past. All of a sudden the tank and keg is empty. Currently the keg is just above half full. Plenty of headspace to replace the CO2 absorbed by a change in temp. It has been fully carbed since right after I put it in the kegerator 2 weeks ago or so.

After checking the keg and tank fittings, I'm sure it's a leaky QD. Not sure why, but it just starts leaking when the temp drops to around freezing. Perhaps there is a flaw in the plastic and the O-ring shrinks just enough. I guess I will replace the QD and see if that fixes if for good. Other kegs have gone flat, but the QD has remained constant.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

I'd do the same... swap out the QD.
If that doesn't take care of it, I'm lost.
I use the MFL threaded QDs instead of the barbed ones. I did have one once that had a flat spot on the plastic seat that seals it in the threaded fitting and it leaked (found it with starsan).
I certainly didn't mean to offend with the co2 absorption post. Was hopeful that in thinking through it again you might have an "Aa Haa" moment and realize something had been overlooked.
If you feel the need to run over the offending keg with your car out of frustration... make sure to make a video.

Good luck.

As I was typing I had another thought... You are not using a co2 splitter or anything are you? You only have one keg on this regulator right?

 

[Zen_Brew]

Does anyone else have a problem with their kegerator reaching the freezing point?

I have a keezer and a kegerator. My Kegerator is a Haier, which lets face it is a discount brand. The back wall builds up ice over time, and I have had to periodically defrost it, which I do by removing all the kegs, unplugging the kegerator, and putting a blow dryer in front of the open door pointing into the kegerator and a towel paced at the front of the kegerator. It takes maybe 20-30 minutes this way. I have read (and never verified) that if you use a small fan to continuously circulate the air inside the kegerator during use that it helps alleviate the ice buildup on the back wall with the cooling lines.

 

[masonsjax]

A fan helps a little with ice buildup because it keeps the temperature even all over so the compressor doesn't have to stay on as long. If you avoid opening the door it will cut down on ice too. I also keep an Eva-dry dehumidifier inside which helps.

 

[bendavanza]

Your beer could be completely absorbing the co2 pressure if it's not already carbonated to that pressure at that temp.
If it is leaking, though I will say that the ONLY way I discovered my leaks was with soapy water.
Keg lube should not break down the O-rings, it must have been an already tired and oxidized ring. I've never had to put teflon tape on keg posts. Poppets have leaked on me before but if the dip tube ring is good the post should not leak.

 

[masonsjax]

You could use an empty keg and pressurize it, hook up your lines, then flip it over and submerge it in a large bucket of water and look for bubbles. If you don't see anything, you should check your lines at the manifold, regulator, and the washer on your tank.

I lost a 5 lb tank of gas once due to a fancy permaseal gasket that was supposed to be superior to the standard nylon gasket. Nope, the o-ring flattened out and leaked shortly after install. Avoid these things, they're worthless:

http://www.bobstropicalplants.com/store/catalog/images/Pema co2 Seal.JPG

 

[Homercidal]

I'd do the same... swap out the QD.
If that doesn't take care of it, I'm lost.
I use the MFL threaded QDs instead of the barbed ones. I did have one once that had a flat spot on the plastic seat that seals it in the threaded fitting and it leaked (found it with starsan).
I certainly didn't mean to offend with the co2 absorption post. Was hopeful that in thinking through it again you might have an "Aa Haa" moment and realize something had been overlooked.
If you feel the need to run over the offending keg with your car out of frustration... make sure to make a video.

Good luck.

As I was typing I had another thought... You are not using a co2 splitter or anything are you? You only have one keg on this regulator right?

No offense taken. I realize that there are "Noobs" on this forum and also there is the fact that people (including myself sometimes) sometimes miss the obvious.

It's a single reg unit.

You could use an empty keg and pressurize it, hook up your lines, then flip it over and submerge it in a large bucket of water and look for bubbles. If you don't see anything, you should check your lines at the manifold, regulator, and the washer on your tank.

I lost a 5 lb tank of gas once due to a fancy permaseal gasket that was supposed to be superior to the standard nylon gasket. Nope, the o-ring flattened out and leaked shortly after install. Avoid these things, they're worthless:

http://www.bobstropicalplants.com/store/catalog/images/Pema co2 Seal.JPG

I may try the trick with the inverted keg. Simple to do.

I'm also using the threaded QD, not the barb. The inverted keg trick will show if it's leaking. BUT, I would expect the keg to empty every time if it was the seal. However, it only seems to do it once the temp drops and the gas post is near the back of the fridge.

I've had the liquid side partially freeze when it was turned towards the back, so I may look into wiring a small fan in there to help keep the temp more even.

I really want to figure this out and fix it. I'd much rather have my gas on all the time and not have to mess with topping it off all the time.

Oh, and the door gets opened fairly often because the door shelves are filled with commercial beer too. Or more homebrew.

 

[bendavanza]

When the temp drops, so will the pressure in the keg unless it is connected to the regulator, regulating your set pressure. I'd take a close look at the poppet in the gas post, though, and open the QD, make sure the little gasket for the cap is in good shape, sometimes they get pinched during assembly and could be your cold leak.

 

[FlyEagles78]

I just use a soapy water mixture and do a leak check periodically with a spray bottle. The soapy water will bubble up if you have a leak somewhere.

 

[humann_brewing]

oh I thought you were gonna say they were emptying liquid wise too fast, yeah that is a problem

 

[ReeseAllen]

At this point, your hypothesis about the fridge being colder in one part and causing one of the post o-rings to shrink sounds like a pretty plausible answer. Here's an experiment to test it: Take a pressurized keg with beer in it and clean the top and sides thoroughly. Attach the beer line, but not the gas. Then, put the still-untapped keg in the same spot where the keg that lost its pressure was located. This time, position it so the beer post is in the supposed cold spot rather than the gas post. If the cold spot is the culprit, it will shrink the o-ring and beer will slowly seep out and trickle down the side of the keg

If the experiment is inconclusive, try it with a different keg that has beer (or some colored liquid) in it.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

At this point, your hypothesis about the fridge being colder in one part and causing one of the post o-rings to shrink sounds like a pretty plausible answer. Here's an experiment to test it: Take a pressurized keg with beer in it and clean the top and sides thoroughly. Attach the beer line, but not the gas. Then, put the still-untapped keg in the same spot where the keg that lost its pressure was located. This time, position it so the beer post is in the supposed cold spot rather than the gas post. If the cold spot is the culprit, it will shrink the o-ring and beer will slowly seep out and trickle down the side of the keg

If the experiment is inconclusive, try switching things up. Swap the beer and gas fittings on the keg (if it's a ball lock) and try it again. Or, try it with a different keg that has beer (or some colored liquid) in it.

Don't swap the black and grey ball lock connectors. They are NOT interchangeable. If you put them on the wrong post, they are a PAIN to get back off.

 

[ReeseAllen]

Don't swap the black and grey ball lock connectors. They are NOT interchangeable. If you put them on the wrong post, they are a PAIN to get back off.

Didn't know this. Thanks for the heads-up, and sorry about the misinformation.

Actually, just to clarify: You're saying that the grey and black connectors don't fit on each others' posts. But is the thread on the posts the same? Obviously, you would only want to put the correct post on the correct side of the keg, but is it possible to make that mistake when rebuilding a ball-lock? I ask because I just picked up a handful of old ball-locks that I am going to start refurbishing this week.

 

[Ohio-Ed]

Didn't know this. Thanks for the heads-up, and sorry about the misinformation.

Actually, just to clarify: You're saying that the grey and black connectors don't fit on each others' posts. But is the thread on the posts the same? Obviously, you would only want to put the correct post on the correct side of the keg, but is it possible to make that mistake when rebuilding a ball-lock? I ask because I just picked up a handful of old ball-locks that I am going to start refurbishing this week.

One of those lessons you don't want to learn from your own experience

If you look closely, the little bump on the posts are different.

The threads on some keg posts are interchangeable... you can put the post on the wrong side (only wrong because the kegs are typically labeled "In" or "Out" near at least one post.)

Here is a good link to info on keg stuff:
http://www.dresselbrew.com/Keg_Info.htm

Ed

edit: Just realized the link does not talk about the difference in the Gas In and the Liquid Out posts.
There is a "ridge" that the ball lock snaps over. Take a close look and you will see one is larger and more pronounced than the other.
The Gas-In post should have a smaller "ridge" than the Liquid Out.

 

[ReeseAllen]

One of those lessons you don't want to learn from your own experience

If you look closely, the little bump on the posts are different.

The threads on some keg posts are interchangeable... you can put the post on the wrong side (only wrong because the kegs are typically labeled "In" or "Out" near at least one post.)

Here is a good link to info on keg stuff:
http://www.dresselbrew.com/Keg_Info.htm

Ed

edit: Just realized the link does not talk about the difference in the Gas In and the Liquid Out posts.
There is a "ridge" that the ball lock snaps over. Take a close look and you will see one is larger and more pronounced than the other.
The Gas-In post should have a smaller "ridge" than the Liquid Out.

I started taking one of them apart just now. I can see the difference in the ridges. I also notice that on at least this first keg, the threads are actually different on the two posts. The minor diameter of the beer fitting is larger than the major diameter of the thread on the gas side, so it doesn't even cross-thread. It just slips over the threads.