Leaky co2, do you use duotight connectors on the gas side?

[jwill911]

I have a new Komos/Kegland kegerator, my first so I'm learning. In the last month I've gone through two 5# Co2 bottles. After the first I went through all the connector making sure the EVAbarrier tubing was cut straight, then making sure to use keg lube on everything, bought a new bottle and same thing happened again so one 5 gal keg of beer cost me $50 in Co2. (it was damn good beer though) I'm considering changing out the duotight connectors on the gas side. I now have both of my kegs cleaned and sanitized with 10 psi holding for days so I don't think it's my kegs leaking gas so I have to suspect the distribution (manifold) or duotight connectors. I'm going to brew again probably tomorrow or Friday ferment for a few weeks but really don't want to spend so much on Co2.
Interested in hearing what experienced kegerator users are doing.

 

[bracconiere]

Interested in hearing what experienced kegerator users are doing.

do you use a nylon washer? or mistakenly trusting the tap-rite, stupid, o-ring? you need to track it down by starting at the valve, and watching the low pressure guage....shut off the kegs at the reg, shut off the tank valve to see if it's the reg....then if it holds up, switch on the kegs with out the tank open, if it hiss and losses pressure, it's on that side....dissconnect the kegs, do the same thing. then you can rule out a bad o-ring on a keg post...and so on..


honestly i keep my tank on a postal scale that stays on 24/7, and is acurate to 0.1oz, just so i can trouble shoot quick.....

 

[IslandLizard]

So sorry!
But yeah, you've got a leak somewhere. You'll need to find and fix it or you'll be throwing tank fulls at it.

BTW, $25 for a 5# tank swap/refill is darn high. Find a better place perhaps, call around?
And also check what a 20# swap/refill would run. You may be surprised how close they are, CO2 is cheap. I pay around $25 for a 20# swap, aluminum.

 

[micraftbeer]

I use duo right on both gas and liquid lines in my keezer. Only thing I've noticed is if you get them in a tight bend situation, they can side load the connector and allow a leak.

 

[day_trippr]

fwiw, I have ~50 PTC connectors in my brewery both beer and gas sides and the vast majority are JohnGuest followed by DMfit then Duotight, with EVABarrier tubing everywhere. I really like the ease of tool-free reconfiguration when necessary...

Cheers!

 

[DuncB]

I also use duotight " manifold " made from eva tube and T pieces, there's a few inline regulators in the system as well.
Make sure your " manifold " is secured nicely so it can't flop about unseen when you close the kegerator / fridge. I cable tied mine to a piece of flute board.
If you have tried the soapy water / starsan looking for bubbles and no joy, try immersion even if it means a bit of disassembly and be methodical from one end to the other.
Also check that all connectors have the tube rammed in far enough, measure from the outer of the duotight to the end of the wide bit, mark the line before you ram it in and then you'll be sure it's fully seated.

 

[youngdh]

I also use duotight " manifold " made from eva tube and T pieces, there's a few inline regulators in the system as well.
Make sure your " manifold " is secured nicely so it can't flop about unseen when you close the kegerator / fridge. I cable tied mine to a piece of flute board.
If you have tried the soapy water / starsan looking for bubbles and no joy, try immersion even if it means a bit of disassembly and be methodical from one end to the other.
Also check that all connectors have the tube rammed in far enough, measure from the outer of the duotight to the end of the wide bit, mark the line before you ram it in and then you'll be sure it's fully seated.

For leak detection fluid I’ve started using plumbing leak fluid from Oatly that you can get at Home Depot. It’s more viscous than Star San and will stay on the interconnect long enough to detect small leaks.

 

[Mad Mann]

I have two kegroators both with CO2 leaks. First one took everything apart after leak testing... multiple leaks. Installed Otiker clamps instead of worm clamps. After all of that discovered through this forum, that the CO2 valve could leak if it is not open all of the way. Viola, now no leak on Kegerator one!

 

[balrog]

I second @Mad Mann - you might blame PTC when the tank valve itself is the culprit.
Or the regulator itself.
@bracconiere is right about what I call the divide and discover method -- pressurize then disconnect keg, which you've done, to find if any of the myriad things *ON* the keg are leaking. Next, pressurize the tank/regulator/feedhose and if you're lucky to have a cutoff below the regulator, you can check tank/regulator vs feed hose to quick disconnect. You can dunk the QD in a cup of starsan while pressurized to check that.
Also, the nylon washer where the regulator connects to the tank is a good thought -- I had a Taprite with O-ring that due to circumstances was being switched a lot and spooged a bit out of the O-ring groove causing a leak.

But first, try opening CO tank valve all the way when open. They can leak in a partially open state.

 

[MikeCo]

I use duo right on both gas and liquid lines in my keezer. Only thing I've noticed is if you get them in a tight bend situation, they can side load the connector and allow a leak.

I’ve noticed the same thing for both gas and liquid lines.

 

[Consigliere]

Sorry for your leaks. It’s very annoying. Like others have said you need to troubleshoot which can take some time. You know your kegs are good which can often be the most difficult spot.

one thing to try if you can - submerge all your hoses, manifolds etc except the CO2 regulator in a bath and see if that is the leak. Outside of that what I do whenever I make a gas change is pressurize the setup in parts, shut off your CO2 tank valve so new gas can’t go into system and come back in a couple hours. I have a 6 port manifold so I start with regulator to manifold. Does it hold pressure? If so, open the manifold one valve at a time and see if it holds.

like others I’m duotight and evabarrier on gas and beer side and have never had a leak but I check thoroughly every time I make a change. Make sure when putting your tubing into a fitting that you get it past the 2nd oring. You should feel initial resistance when putting the tubing in and you it “give” and then a second resistance and then it “give”. That’s when you know you have a proper seal.
One last thing on leaks - the post to quick disconnect can be a source of leaks and is a nightmare to find. Make sure your post orings are in good shape and lubed.

 

[marc1]

I’ve noticed the same thing for both gas and liquid lines.

The plastic "collar" inserts that lock the connection work great for this.

 

[IslandLizard]

After all of that discovered through this forum, that the CO2 valve could leak if it is not open all of the way. Viola, now no leak on Kegerator one!

Not opening the valve all the way is a very common operator error.

The main tank valve needs to be opened all the way until it stops turning. That way it compresses the stem packing in the up-most position, preventing leaks there. IOW, do not just give it one turn.

 

[jwill911]

I have two kegroators both with CO2 leaks. First one took everything apart after leak testing... multiple leaks. Installed Otiker clamps instead of worm clamps. After all of that discovered through this forum, that the CO2 valve could leak if it is not open all of the way. Viola, now no leak on Kegerator one!

Hmmm... I didn't know that I don't open it all the way. Something to think about.

 

[jwill911]

I second @Mad Mann - you might blame PTC when the tank valve itself is the culprit.
Or the regulator itself.
@bracconiere is right about what I call the divide and discover method -- pressurize then disconnect keg, which you've done, to find if any of the myriad things *ON* the keg are leaking. Next, pressurize the tank/regulator/feedhose and if you're lucky to have a cutoff below the regulator, you can check tank/regulator vs feed hose to quick disconnect. You can dunk the QD in a cup of starsan while pressurized to check that.
Also, the nylon washer where the regulator connects to the tank is a good thought -- I had a Taprite with O-ring that due to circumstances was being switched a lot and spooged a bit out of the O-ring groove causing a leak.

But first, try opening CO tank valve all the way when open. They can leak in a partially open state.

OK all good stuff. I don't have any beer in my kegs currently :-( But have a starter fermenting now and plan to brew on Friday, on my new Brew Hardware Premium recirculating eBIAB system can't wait. While beer is fermenting I'll put all the advice offered into action. Thanks, John

 

[IslandLizard]

For leak detection fluid I’ve started using plumbing leak fluid from Oatly that you can get at Home Depot. It’s more viscous than Star San and will stay on the interconnect long enough to detect small leaks.

"Bubble Juice" is also quite thick and may work equally well for CO2 leaks. It's almost unbelievable how little money a gallon of that stuff runs. Or use (liquid) dishwash soap.

The other thing is over-tightening the plastic push-in fittings onto a brass MFL may cause to crack them.

Also, use one of those specially dome-shaped plastic ("fisheye") washer between any metal to metal (MFL/FFL) flare fittings.

There are many threads on these forums on how to chase culprits in leaky gas systems. The best way is by isolating sub parts. By doing so, you know that each part upstream is gas tight.

 

[murphyslaw]

I use duo right on both gas and liquid lines in my keezer. Only thing I've noticed is if you get them in a tight bend situation, they can side load the connector and allow a leak.

+1 to this

 

[jwill911]

Not opening the valve all the way is a very common operator error.

The main tank valve needs to be opened all the way until it stops turning. That way it compresses the stem packing in the up-most position, preventing leaks there. IOW, do not just give it one turn.

I can say I definitely have NOT been doing this. And it could be a source of my issues. But I will not discount anything else.

 

[Knightshade]

I use duotight on gas/beer side and recently had a 20# tank leak. @IslandLizard pointed me towards using keg lube on the posts which can contribute to minor leaks.

Which might have been the cause in my case, however I also discovered that the keg posts that needed lubing (I only had 2, and the other has been connected for probably a year without issue. The leak occurred after hooking up 2nd keg) were also only hand tight. As in..barely on there. I've taken to tightening all my posts with a 17mm wrench to the stop, then backing off a bit so I'm not crushing the bajeebers out of the o-rings. But...these suckers were barely hand snug, so I think it might have been that....ya big dummy....

Checked all the connections anyways w/soapy water, nothing. Been checking the big tank pressure probably everyday since and it is holding steady, again indicating no massive leak. Silly mistake..argh.

20# swap for me at LHBS is $50, which is why I've been taking it to local (5 min drive vs 35 minutes) keg/bottle shop where they usually fill it for $40.

 

[IslandLizard]

@IslandLizard pointed me towards using keg lube on the posts which can contribute to minor leaks.

That's phrased awkwardly.
Let me clarify:
Using keg lube on the o-rings, the ones top of the keg posts, prevents leaks!
It makes them slick, and enables the Quick Disconnects ("QD") to slide easier over the o-rings when pushing them on, or pulling them off, without deforming or damaging it, while providing for a better seal. Those post o-rings are the only seal between the keg and the 2 disconnects!
IOW, while the disconnects are pushed on, the spring-loaded poppets in both the keg and the QDs are held in open position, to allow gas to go in and beer to come out.

Generally, all 5 rubber keg o-rings should be lubricated with keg lube. Especially the ones on top of the posts and the large o-ring around the lid.

 

[bracconiere]

That's phrased awkwardly.

to slide easier over the o-rings when pushing them on, or pulling them off,

on the whole, i think the general consensus is also to just lightly lube your o-rings, and not use to much?

 

[day_trippr]

Yes, just a bare film is all that is needed to prevent frictional distortion (basically, twisting) and also friction-induced surface damage (creating fissures and cracks)...

Cheers!

 

[sibelman]

Chasing leaks is not my idea of a good time. So while I'm happy for all who love their DuoTights, after a minor leak experience early in (JG, not Kegland) I went back to barbs and Oetikers for all gas and beer lines. Harder to swap out for sure, but many fewer places where leaks might occur.

 

[youngdh]

That's phrased awkwardly.
Let me clarify:
Using keg lube on the o-rings, the ones top of the keg posts, prevents leaks!
It makes them slick, and enables the Quick Disconnects ("QD") to slide easier over the o-rings when pushing them on, or pulling them off, without deforming or damaging it, while providing for a better seal. Those post o-rings are the only seal between the keg and the 2 disconnects!
IOW, while the disconnects are pushed on, the spring-loaded poppets in both the keg and the QDs are held in open position, to allow gas to go in and beer to come out.

Generally, all 5 rubber keg o-rings should be lubricated with keg lube. Especially the ones on top of the posts and the large o-ring around the lid.

Don’t forget the o-rings around the beer dip tube and shorter gas dip tube under the poppets.

 

[balrog]

Yes, just a bare film is all that is needed to prevent frictional distortion

And "Frictional Distortion" would be a good name for a rock band.

Carry on.

 

[Bobby_M]

The first step is to isolate what part of the system leaks and everyone that uses Co2 should understand about leak down testing. It's performed by pressurizing the gas "system" to some extent at say 30psi output pressure and then closing the tank valve. After about an hour, if the secondary gauge is less than what you set as your initial pressure, there is a leak in the system to the extent that you've pressurized.

At minimum, try it without anything connected to kegs but let it all pressurize all the way to the grew QDs. If it doesn't hold there, dip the QDs in water to check for poppit leaks and you'd also see bubbling at the Duotight to QD or tubing to Duotight. If those don't bubble at all, shut off the next upstream valve. That may be the valves on a distribution manifold or maybe all the way at the regulator exit point. Repeat the leak down. Open the tank valve, set to 30psi, close the tank valve. If it still leaks down there, your leak is in the regulator or at the joint between the regulator and tank.

I would say the most common leak is at the top of the keg but this process will figure that out.

Most duotight fitting issues have to do with incomplete insertion (many people push to the first oring and stop). A light coat of keg lube on the tube and twisting as you insert helps a lot. Next, the flare connections can leak if they are undertightened or overtightened (due to cracking). Lube the threads and tit of flare, hand tighten plus another 1/4 turn. Check for leaks and if found, one more quarter turn.

 

[Knightshade]

That's phrased awkwardly.
Let me clarify:
Using keg lube on the o-rings, the ones top of the keg posts, prevents leaks!
It makes them slick, and enables the Quick Disconnects ("QD") to slide easier over the o-rings when pushing them on, or pulling them off, without deforming or damaging it, while providing for a better seal. Those post o-rings are the only seal between the keg and the 2 disconnects!
IOW, while the disconnects are pushed on, the spring-loaded poppets in both the keg and the QDs are held in open position, to allow gas to go in and beer to come out.

Generally, all 5 rubber keg o-rings should be lubricated with keg lube. Especially the ones on top of the posts and the large o-ring around the lid.

So....what you're saying is there shouldn't be a 1:1 ratio. One tube of keg lube per post?

Yes, I kid...I kid. And after re-reading my post, I agree it was "phrased awkwardly" at best.

 

[stealthfixr]

Had a horrible time with CO2 and my new Kegland kegerator and went through many tanks before discovering 1) cannot have any bends leading to the connections (last 3" or so must be straight leading into the push-in connector), and 2) locking tabs help a lot (Finding DuoTight Compatible Locking Clips). Since paying attention to both, I've not had any CO2 leaks.

 

[Gozie Boy]

To help manage bends, I warm up the tubing (about 160 - 170F) and bend/shape it for what you need. That works well for relatively gentle bends. If you have sharp bends, use Duotight ell fittings. And, yes, definitely use the blue horseshoe shaped clips!

 

[eshea3]

Also look at the new duotight ball lock connectors. They will reduce potential for problems with flare ball lock connections.

 

[Gozie Boy]

Slightly off topic, but I notice that EVABarrier now makes a 3mm ID (6.35mm OD) tubing, and the ball lock connectors for same. I'd love to use this, especially for the beer side to further reduce the length of tubing needed for balancing. But I have not found a good way to connect the tubing to shanks, as they apparently do not (yet) have a DuoTight shank fitting for this sized tubing. Anyone with information or ideas?

 

[day_trippr]

I wonder how well 3mm ID tubing will work. I've been running the 4mm for going on two years now and it works great with 10 second pints at 5.5~6' length. Which is good, because with a 14 cubic foot keezer and a t-tower the kegs in the corners need at least 6' to reach from QD to shank! I expect 3mm ID line at that length would make for a really slow pour...

Cheers!

 

[Gozie Boy]

Understood. I have a traditional 8.8 cu ft keezer and front collar-mounted faucets, which fits 6x slim-style Torpedo kegs. The c.6' length requires 2-3 loops per line, which gets a bit messy when you have 6 kegs squeezed together. Would be nice to have a more "direct to keg" style line design, which I think the 3mm lines would provide. (Haven't seen any resistance/length data yet, but it will obviously be significantly less). The lines would also be a lot more flexible.

 

[day_trippr]

I just plugged 4mm (0.1574798") into Mike Soltys' well-respected line length calculator (the only one worth using imo), and it says with 12 psi, a 1.5' rise, and the default 1.009 SG, one needs just 4.36 feet of line to hit a 10 seconds per pint flow rate. The same calculator says 3mm (0.1181099") ID line needs just 1.08 feet to hit that 10 second pour. Yikes!

Now, only because I have empirical performance to judge, I'd say one could at least multiply those lengths by 1.5X and be in a safe ballpark. But still, a foot and a half of line is pretty darned short

Cheers!

 

[DuncB]

The 3mm line was my recommendation somewhere for minikegs and picnic taps, rather than long line and flow control when out and about.