Leaking copper pipes

[Dland]

The leak somewhere in the ceiling was getting worse, so finally dove after couple weeks denial.

Turns out there was a pinhole, spraying out near the top of a horizontal hot water feed to upstairs shower. The plumbing repair went OK, we'll see about the sheetrock, it's 5/8 blueboard w diamond plaster skim, I don't have a lot of experinance with that line of work.

Kind of tempted just to screw some plywood in there, in case any other pipes go nearby. But it is a slippery slope from being totally practical to one's place looking like a dump, at least in my case.

The pipe that started leaking was a 1/2 inch type L copper pipe, about 24 years since installed. Anyone else have similar problem?

 

[day_trippr]

Ugh, that sucks. I really REALLY hate working above my head, never mind dealing with leaky plumbing in general.
Type L is supposed to last "up to" 50 years. Any idea why yours sprung that leak?

 

[Agent]

That's oodles of fun!

I re-did my whole house in copper when we moved in. Then we had the well re-done and have had two fittings dissolve and separate since then. I'm hoping that's not going to bite me later.

But I like to say "one is just a fluke, two is a problem".

Godspeed on the drywall though. I finally got good as I finished the second pallet of it, and I'd say it's not a skill like riding a bicycle.

 

[Dland]

Type L is supposed to last "up to" 50 years. Any idea why yours sprung that leak?

Until a couple of years ago, I was on a 6" iron cased well from the mid '60s, it always had active iron bacteria in it, messing with valves and putting out rust colored water. Since it was the hot water line that failed, I guess the heat and something was reactive with the pipes. If the iron bacteria can eat iron in cold water, maybe they can have a go at copper in warm.

Since I hooked up my new new well, the water runs clean and tastes better. The aquifer around here generally has a lower pH, which at least is good for making most of the beer I like.

 

[IslandLizard]

Man, that sucks!

Type L is supposed to last "up to" 50 years. Any idea why yours sprung that leak?

I'm not a plumber, but have seen and worked with copper line quite a bit over the years.

IIRC, "Type L" is the thickest of copper tubing used in domestic installations ("Type M" having the thinnest wall).
It may have been a (rare) manufacturing defect in the tubing ("pipe"), such as an embedded speck of oxide or other foreign material that corroded out over the years.

 

[sibelman]

I had a pinhole like OP's, where the original plumber (house was ~45 years old) had inexplicably bent a run around a joist instead of through it like the rest of that run of copper. The sheetrock below the leak was the garage ceiling, so never got fully remediated.

 

[FloppyKnockers]

Been there, done that several times too many times to count.

Type L is very common for residential - not too cheap, not too expensive. Pinhole leaks that aren't caused by some outside force is simply caused by the water flowing within. The harder the water, the sooner it will leak. Freezing, electrolysis, poor soldering, and structural shift are other common reasons for leaks

I'd be thankful it was copper. Probably one of the easiest pipes to fix aside from the Wirsbo that's all the rage with the kids these days. It would be a nightmare if it were Poly-B or CPVC. Not because of the location, but because that would be the first of several repairs you would make this year.

Patching is the easy part. The hard part is matching the texture and paint sheen.

 

[TexasTea]

Dland, I'm on a well, pH about 6.5 (makes great beer). If you are lower than that it is the acidity eating up your pipes. Safe pH range for copper pipe are 6.5-8.5. Outside of that range copper will corrode. A Calcite tank will bring your pH to 7. I put one in just in case, but pull my brew water straight from the wellhead.

 

[Dland]

I decided to clean up the utility closet where the pipe manifold for that part of the house is. My gal painted some & wiped the dust off the pipes, and they sprung a leak, then two more popped up. Strangely, they self sealed for a while, likely with corrosion residue from within, but one of them started leaking again.

I decided to replace all the copper in that part of system, adding valves w drain ports to so when more leaks occur they can be isolated and the pipe replacement can happen on an as needed basis, without disrupting all of the water supply to that part of house.

Any time I do new plumbing or repairs, I like to put in a lot of valves. I guess plumbers often skip this to save money, but it makes things easier in the long run.

Below are before and after pictures;

I know, probably too much solder and maybe heat, but I don't do this every day. Actually the burn marks in wood were with a regular propane torch, heating the copper too slowly. When I switched to acetylene Turbo Torch with a small brazing tip it went better, even if it got a little too hot. Probably should get some other tips or a Propane/Mapp adapter for it.

 

[Broken Crow]

I decided to clean up the utility closet where the pipe manifold for that part of the house is. My gal painted some & wiped the dust off the pipes, and they sprung a leak, then two more popped up. Strangely, they self sealed for a while, likely with corrosion residue from within, but one of them started leaking again.

I decided to replace all the copper in that part of system, adding valves w drain ports to so when more leaks occur they can be isolated and the pipe replacement can happen on an as needed basis, without disrupting all of the water supply to that part of house.

Any time I do new plumbing or repairs, I like to put in a lot of valves. I guess plumbers often skip this to save money, but it makes things easier in the long run.

Below are before and after pictures;

View attachment 866384

View attachment 866386


I know, probably too much solder and maybe heat, but I don't do this every day. Actually the burn marks in wood were with a regular propane torch, heating the copper too slowly. When I switched to acetylene Turbo Torch with a small brazing tip it went better, even if it got a little too hot. Probably should get some other tips or a Propane/Mapp adapter for it.

Just a tip in case you have any more to do: Get a couple sheets of aluminum foil, crumple them up and then flatten them back out, leaving them full of creases and air-pockets, and stick them in between the pipes and the wood as a heat-shield..works better than you'd expect. (I also use tinfoil when doing body-work on cars when there's trim nearby...haven't melted any plastic or carpet ever) Also; you don't need more than a regular propane torch! Too much heat makes it runny as you've found.

 

[Dland]

Thanks, I'll have to try the foil, I usually use a wet rag, but there was not much clearance to the wall on this job, so the rag started smoldering.

The problem with a consumer grade propane torch is if it heats too slowly, the whole system gets hotter than it has to before the solder melts. Also, they go out when upside down and one can only bring the flame to bare on some angles. With a torch with a hose feed, the flame can be applied mostly 360 degrees around the work.

Usually when I do a job like this, I assemble the whole pipe array, heat it some and flux it, then come back and solder the whole thing in place. This method works with acetylene better on larger diameters of copper pipe, with 1/2 it gets too hot.

Maybe if I took a break during the process to let things cool, the outcome would be better. Not sure I'd go so far as to have a beer, working with flame and all, but my standards of comporture have deteriorated with age.

 

[TheDudeLebowski]

I've been embibing and forget what I use but it some kind of plumbers/welders shield that looks like an SOS pad. A little bit cheaper. I have a very small space and it's amazing the small spaces I've had to solder

I appreciate your post. I wanna try PEX but old man copper argument is what will happen in 50 years?!

Funny story is I grew up in a very old farmhouse and the person who owned it when indoor plumbing was installed worked for the dpw. Just not to incriminate but a section oddly bypassed the meter. My dad was cleaning up the dirt floor cellar and ran across the pipe with a steel cabinet. A geyser was going off for three hours because the dpw couldnt figure out how to shut it off. They had to turn off two blocks down the road to stop it. Somehow we've been getting free water for 70 years. Oops

https://www.homedepot.com/s/solder+heat+shield?adobe_mc=TS=1736471196|MCMID=15456562604587556084909483538570625444|MCORGID=F6421253512D2C100A490D45@AdobeOrg&mboxSession=4d80f944-f641-4c41-a8e2-c06b3a3b7d59

 

[Agent]

Thanks, I'll have to try the foil, I usually use a wet rag, but there was not much clearance to the wall on this job, so the rag started smoldering.

The problem with a consumer grade propane torch is if it heats too slowly, the whole system gets hotter than it has to before the solder melts. Also, they go out when upside down and one can only bring the flame to bare on some angles. With a torch with a hose feed, the flame can be applied mostly 360 degrees around the work.

Usually when I do a job like this, I assemble the whole pipe array, heat it some and flux it, then come back and solder the whole thing in place. This method works with acetylene better on larger diameters of copper pipe, with 1/2 it gets too hot.

Maybe if I took a break during the process to let things cool, the outcome would be better. Not sure I'd go so far as to have a beer, working with flame and all, but my standards of comporture have deteriorated with age.

There have gotten to be a decent number of propane torches that'll do fast work on <3/4" pipe. Of course customer service gets uptight when you return a model because the flame was effin weak.

Unless all your piping is easily accessible, I'd be switching to PEX or trying to figure out why you are pinholing thick copper. Power leak to your grounding strap? Corrosive water? Anode gone from the water heater?

 

[Closet Fermenter]

When my dad built his house, it was plumbed with copper. A couple of retired brothers made the cabinets for the kitchen and bathrooms, and installed them. About a year and a half after we moved in, my dad got up one morning to find water pouring off the light fixture in the living room. Turns out that when the cabinets were installed in the bathroom upstairs, the carpenter put a nail right through a copper pipe. It sealed for a year and a half until the nail rusted out.

 

[sibelman]

It sealed for a year and a half until the nail rusted out.

PEX doesn't cure this. And it's even easier to drive a nail through. No perfect solution.

 

[TheDudeLebowski]

Imagine when it's a live wire Hopefully the carpenter gets the shocking message.

Id be curious even if a water treatment system could reverse it in a way. I don't think it's a solution but it's the water quality. I initially thought a small quality issue.

 

[Tony B]

I worked as a plumber for a couple years. Pin holes are pretty common. All the reasons stated above and also turbulence caused by pipe ends that aren’t reamed properly. I saw pin hole leaks commonly in installations that included a recirculating pump, but not always. You can apply a piece of rubber and a hose clamp over the hole to stop or at least slow the leak until you can get a plumber out there or make the repair yourself.

 

[Tony B]

When my dad built his house, it was plumbed with copper. A couple of retired brothers made the cabinets for the kitchen and bathrooms, and installed them. About a year and a half after we moved in, my dad got up one morning to find water pouring off the light fixture in the living room. Turns out that when the cabinets were installed in the bathroom upstairs, the carpenter put a nail right through a copper pipe. It sealed for a year and a half until the nail rusted out.

I shot a nail into a pipe many years ago. Don’t do that.
I was installing base boards in a room that backed up to a bathroom. Shot the nail and heard a pshhhhhhh. I popped a hole in the wall with my hammer to see my nail had pierced a copper water pipe. I called the boss and he said there’s no way I’m going to be able to get a plumber out there at 3 o’clock on a Friday afternoon so you better figure out how to fix it.
Thus my introduction to the plumbing trade.