LCD high-def, seriously?

[BeerWars]

Sort of, yes.

It is artifacting and smearing caused by the processor of the TV trying to deal with 24fps and 60fps video sources and the set having a native 120Hz/240Hz refresh rate. Something has to make up for the extra frames since they can;t be bothered anymore to allow a source to be played at a native resolution or refresh rate.

120hz / 240hz allows them to show 24 / 30 / 60 fps material at the native frame rate assuming that you do not have image processing active (you shouldn't).

Your TV ALWAYS displays the same resolution. A 1080p is ALWAYS displaying 1080p no matter what the source resolution is.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

120hz / 240hz allows them to show 24 / 30 / 60 fps material at the native frame rate assuming that you do not have image processing active (you shouldn't).

Your TV ALWAYS displays the same resolution. A 1080p is ALWAYS displaying 1080p no matter what the source resolution is.

Your point? You are only echoing what I already said.

Which is to say that unless the source material was recorded at the same native refresh and resolution as the display there will always be processing involved either to fill in for refresh rate or to upscale resolution. Which doesn't really matter since most people can't tolerate having bars on the screen and opt for the least distorted display of the source that fills the screen.

UNLESS the display does allow scanning at the recorded refresh rate natively. From what I have read, several do not, thus they use some form of interpolation. For these, the user controls only allow one to select what manner of interpolation gets used.

 

[BeerWars]

Your point? You are only echoing what I already said.

Which is to say that unless the source material was recorded at the same native refresh and resolution as the display there will always be processing involved either to fill in for refresh rate or to upscale resolution. Which doesn't really matter since most people can't tolerate having bars on the screen and opt for the least distorted display of the source that fills the screen.

My point? Accuracy.

I am not echoing you - I am actually saying something completely different than you are.

"Processing" is a somewhat ambiguous term. When I think of processing I think of MotionFlow - which literally creates frames that do not exist. This process creates the "artifacts and smearing" that you are speaking of.

120Hz / 240Hz sets are nice because it allows you to view all common fps 24, 30, and 60 at proportional frame-rates because they all divide evenly into 120. There is no processing of the image - depending on the native fps each frame is repeated either 5, 4, or 2 / 10, 8, or 4 times. There is no reason that playing any of those native fps material on a 120Hz set would cause ANY "artifacts or smearing."

A Primer:
If you pop a 24fps Blu-ray disk into your Blu-ray player and you have a 1080p 120Hz display it will play the movie by simply repeating each of the 24 frames 5 times. There is no "processing" of the image - it is at its native resolution and proportionally native frame rate.

If you are watching TV 1080i 30fps the image is deinterlaced and each frame is repeated 4 times.

If you are watching TV 720p 60 fps the image is upscaled to 1080p and each frame is repeated 2 times

If you are watching TV 480i 30 fps the image is upscaled to 1080p, deinterlaced, and each frame is repeated 4 times.

The repeating of the frame is NOT creating ANY artifacts, PERIOD.

UNLESS the display does allow scanning at the recorded refresh rate natively. From what I have read, several do not, thus they use some form of interpolation. For these, the user controls only allow one to select what manner of interpolation gets used.

Interpolation is a process where the standard repetition of the same frames is modified so that it is not repeating each of the frames a set number of times but rather is creating frames. The display will still be showing a 1080p image at 120Hz.

Standard:
111112222233333444445555566666777778888899999......23232323232424242424 = 120 frames

Each frame is repeated 5 times.

Inerpolated (MotionFlow)
1 1.1 1.2 1.4 1.4 2 2.1 2.2 2.3 2.4.......... 23 23.1 23.2 23.3 23.4 24 24.1 24.2 24.3 24.4 = 120 frames

Each frame is shown only 1 time. 1 source frame followed by 4 created frames. All of the ._ are created frames. This is where a ton of artifacts, and blurring come from. Turn this feature off.

 

[cruckin78]

Isn't that fire going to melt the plasma?

not a real fire, just looks like a real 'fire' it's just a small electric heater.

 

[EoinMag]

Hmmm I have a 37 inch Bravia and decided to go for the one without the trumotion, cos that was out of my budget...that might be why I'm not seeing what you guys are seeing with the larger screens with this feature....at least according to the post of Beerwars.

 

[wildwest450]

I actually got some settings from an A/V site and did a "custom" setting for movies, it looks awesome, still a little "fake", but much improved. I just switch back to normal for watching sports. It really is a great little tv, now to run some cat 5 to it so I can take advantage of the internet features.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

My point? Accuracy.

I am not echoing you - I am actually saying something completely different than you are.

"Processing" is a somewhat ambiguous term. When I think of processing I think of MotionFlow - which literally creates frames that do not exist. This process creates the "artifacts and smearing" that you are speaking of.

120Hz / 240Hz sets are nice because it allows you to view all common fps 24, 30, and 60 at proportional frame-rates because they all divide evenly into 120. There is no processing of the image - depending on the native fps each frame is repeated either 5, 4, or 2 / 10, 8, or 4 times. There is no reason that playing any of those native fps material on a 120Hz set would cause ANY "artifacts or smearing."

A Primer:
If you pop a 24fps Blu-ray disk into your Blu-ray player and you have a 1080p 120Hz display it will play the movie by simply repeating each of the 24 frames 5 times. There is no "processing" of the image - it is at its native resolution and proportionally native frame rate.

If you are watching TV 1080i 30fps the image is deinterlaced and each frame is repeated 4 times.

If you are watching TV 720p 60 fps the image is upscaled to 1080p and each frame is repeated 2 times

If you are watching TV 480i 30 fps the image is upscaled to 1080p, deinterlaced, and each frame is repeated 4 times.

The repeating of the frame is NOT creating ANY artifacts, PERIOD.



Interpolation is a process where the standard repetition of the same frames is modified so that it is not repeating each of the frames a set number of times but rather is creating frames. The display will still be showing a 1080p image at 120Hz.

Standard:
111112222233333444445555566666777778888899999......23232323232424242424 = 120 frames

Each frame is repeated 5 times.

Inerpolated (MotionFlow)
1 1.1 1.2 1.4 1.4 2 2.1 2.2 2.3 2.4.......... 23 23.1 23.2 23.3 23.4 24 24.1 24.2 24.3 24.4 = 120 frames

Each frame is shown only 1 time. 1 source frame followed by 4 created frames. All of the ._ are created frames. This is where a ton of artifacts, and blurring come from. Turn this feature off.

Excellent response.

 

[Synovia]

Your point? You are only echoing what I already said.

Which is to say that unless the source material was recorded at the same native refresh and resolution as the display there will always be processing involved either to fill in for refresh rate or to upscale resolution. Which doesn't really matter since most people can't tolerate having bars on the screen and opt for the least distorted display of the source that fills the screen.
.

Drawing a frame three times in a row really isn't "processing"

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Drawing a frame three times in a row really isn't "processing"

I don't agree with this. While the discernable effects of the duplicated frames may be minimal it is still not what is considered Native from the source. Now, if a set capable of 120Hz could be forced to display at the Native 24, 30, or 60 as the source I would then consider that as not processed.

Does it matter to the naked eye? Not usually.

 

[Synovia]

I don't agree with this. While the discernable effects of the duplicated frames may be minimal it is still not what is considered Native from the source. Now, if a set capable of 120Hz could be forced to display at the Native 24, 30, or 60 as the source I would then consider that as not processed..

Why?

Your eye sees 5 frames at 1/120 th of a second exactly the same way it sees 1 frame at 1/24th.


And LCD's don't really dim between frames like some older TVs do, so in essence, 5 draws at 120th is functionally equivalent to 1 draw at 1/24th

 

[BeerWars]

I don't agree with this. While the discernable effects of the duplicated frames may be minimal it is still not what is considered Native from the source. Now, if a set capable of 120Hz could be forced to display at the Native 24, 30, or 60 as the source I would then consider that as not processed.

Does it matter to the naked eye? Not usually.

You do not understand how digital video works.

It is not showing a frame for 1/120th of a second, clearing the screen and then showing the second identical frame for 1/120th of a second and so on.

Basically, with digital it is only refreshing the changes in a scene from the previous frame. So if there is a black screen for 5 minutes the Blu-ray player literally sends the information for the black screen and then nothing else for 5 minutes until the scene changes. If subsequently 1 pixel is illuminated, it is not re-sending the tv an image of a black screen with 1 pixel - it simply tells the TV which pixel it wants and which color to make it. That is the beauty of this technology.

So you assertion is completely false. When a Blu-ray is watched on a 120hz TV, the player isn't sending the tv 120 individual frames per second - it sends the info for the first frame - since there are no changes to the image for frames 2,3,4,5 the image is not refreshed - 6/120th of a second later it sends which pixels need to be modified and the tv refreshes those individual pixels to create the new image that is frame 2. It does this 24 times per second.

Everything you see on a 120Hz TV without MotionFlow is displayed at the native fps. With MotionFlow is another story; and the reason it looks fake (because 80% of what you see is "processed"). It is sending frame changes every 1/120ths of a second vs. 5/120ths (24 times) without MotionFlow.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

You do not understand how digital video works.

It is not showing a frame for 1/120th of a second, clearing the screen and then showing the second identical frame for 1/120th of a second and so on.

Basically, with digital it is only refreshing the changes in a scene from the previous frame. So if there is a black screen for 5 minutes the Blu-ray player literally sends the information for the black screen and then nothing else for 5 minutes until the scene changes. If subsequently 1 pixel is illuminated, it is not re-sending the tv an image of a black screen with 1 pixel - it simply tells the TV which pixel it wants and which color to make it. That is the beauty of this technology.

So you assertion is completely false. When a Blu-ray is watched on a 120hz TV, the player isn't sending the tv 120 individual frames per second - it sends the info for the first frame - since there are no changes to the image for frames 2,3,4,5 the image is not refreshed - 6/120th of a second later it sends which pixels need to be modified and the tv refreshes those individual pixels to create the new image that is frame 2. It does this 24 times per second.

Everything you see on a 120Hz TV without MotionFlow is displayed at the native fps. With MotionFlow is another story; and the reason it looks fake (because 80% of what you see is "processed"). It is sending frame changes every 1/120ths of a second vs. 5/120ths (24 times) without MotionFlow.

Again, another excellent response.

 

[Flomaster]

I have a 60" 1080P samsung DLP its only 12" wide, I notice when I go over to a friends house his LCD looks really fake I can't adjust to the picture. seems like motion is sped up a bit. he says he noticed it too, but after a few days got used to it.

is this the "soap opera effect" you speak of if so count me out I think it looks like crap, its not fluid motion at all. our neighbors got a new LCD and were complain of the same thing I went over and tweaked several settings in the tv and removed or almost removed that speeding up motion thing. how can people think it looks good?

-=Jason=-

 

[wildwest450]

his LCD looks really fake I can't adjust to the picture. seems like motion is sped up a bit. he says he noticed it too, but after a few days got used to it.
is this the "soap opera effect" you speak of

That's what I was referring to.

 

[MeatyPortion]

One word: books

 

[ChshreCat]

One word: books

Ok. I set my TV on some books. It didn't seem to help.

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

Ok. I set my TV on some books. It didn't seem to help.

You have to flip each page 4 times before you can flip to the next page.

 

[wildwest450]

One word: books

Sweet, they have hi-def books?

 

[Gremlyn]

Not reading 5 pages of this, but in case no one has said this: you can turn that crap off... I hate it too!