Lambic (BOS, 3rd BOS and Two Golds)

[Tarheel4985]

I've been trying to find ECY for a little bit but I can't seem to respond to the Google Group in time. Anyone have any available?

You can make great lambics with extract but I think it's much easier to awesome lambics all grain. If you don't feel like doing a traditional turbid mash, mash high at 157-158 F and sparge with 175-185 F water. You wanna make tons of complex sugars and tannins for the Brett to work on. Tons of lambic recipes online... Check out themadfermentationist's lambic posts. Do 7-7.5 pounds of pilsner, 3-4 lbs of raw unmalted wheat, or flaked wheat. Skip the malodextrin

Don't just pitch 3278 Lambic blend. I like 3763 more, but pitch dregs, other cultures, or just ECY. It'll make a better lambic. And remember to age it for at least a year, especially all grain

 

[Zippox]

Finally getting around to making it... tonight. I am going to pick up a sour beer on my way home to add the dregs from in addition to the wyeast lambic pack. I was thinking of picking up Cuve Rene. I probably should stay away from JP with the initial pitch because I have heard that it is so aggressive that it would probably throw things out of proportion from the smack pack, right?

If not, which JP would you recommend from the picture?

I also have a couple others I can choose from as you can see in the pictures.

I'm just looking for someone to say 'pick <this one> because it's the best'.

 

[urbanmyth]

Well, Duchesse and Rodenbach have no live bugs in them. They are either pasteurized or filtered before bottling. Cuvee Rene has a goodly amount of bugs, and they are quite pleasant.

I haven't had a problem with JP bugs, quite the contrary. I bought the freshest bottle I could and grew those up in a starter to use. They give a nice, quick, complex funk in my experience, and age quite well. I wouldn't see a problem with pitching them along with the primary yeast. I'm a big fan of the "Firefly" (green label) and the Bam Biere. Find the youngest bottle you can and use those. Should give a nice complexity you just can't get from the Wyeast alone.

 

[Zippox]

I ended up using Cuvee Rene - the local liquor store just got a brand new case in the other day so it's about as young of a bottle as I am going to get here in MN. I was expecting more sourness from the first sip but after letting it sit in the glass and giving my mouth a chance to get used to it, I really enjoyed it and it seemed to become more sour. Personally it was too carbonated for me to be able to drink it right away so letting it sit for 30 minutes in a wider-mouthed glass brought it to a perfect level of carbonation. Brewing went well, with just a minor boil over. Hope in 30 days when I transfer it to the carboy I see some nice pellicle!

 

[cdubbaya]

I ended up using Cuvee Rene - the local liquor store just got a brand new case in the other day so it's about as young of a bottle as I am going to get here in MN. I was expecting more sourness from the first sip but after letting it sit in the glass and giving my mouth a chance to get used to it, I really enjoyed it and it seemed to become more sour. Personally it was too carbonated for me to be able to drink it right away so letting it sit for 30 minutes in a wider-mouthed glass brought it to a perfect level of carbonation. Brewing went well, with just a minor boil over. Hope in 30 days when I transfer it to the carboy I see some nice pellicle!

If you don't mind me asking, which MGM was that? It looked like Prior Lake, but I see La Roja on the shelf.

 

[Zippox]

Haha yeah that is the MGM in prior lake. You live in PL? (I'm using the HBT app so I don't see locations).

 

[Zippox]

Say Amanda, you mentioned you bottled at 1.5 volumes CO2 and that seems to have worked out pretty well for you. Is there some simple conversion I can do to find out how much priming sugar I would need to give my bottles a similar carbonation level?

And would anyone be able to venture a guess what 'volumes' or priming sugar equivalent would have to be put in to get the same carbonation level that Cuvee Rene had? I'm trying to get a feel for what CO2 volumes feel like to know I will be happy at bottle time.

 

[urbanmyth]

http://www.tastybrew.com/calculators/priming.html

 

[ColoBrewer420]

I brewed 10 gallons off this and just did a rack to secondary after 5 weeks. Took a sample and it tasted good like a farm house but was not really "sour". I used wyeast roselare. Will the sour strengthen with age? I hope so, I plan on racking some on to peaches in about 6 months. If any has an opinion let me know. I've been brewing for a bit but this is my first sour/lambic. Either way it should be a good beer with some age.

 

[Zippox]

I have read numerous times that people say roselare young does not give the strong sourness that the lambic blend gives. But most people say that with age the sourness will come through.

 

[ColoBrewer420]

I have read numerous times that people say roselare young does not give the strong sourness that the lambic blend gives. But most people say that with age the sourness will come through.

Thank you that's what I'm hoping! I will let you know in a year! Prost!

 

[njporter]

do you have to transfer to secondary or can you just leave it in the primary for a year?

 

[Zippox]

Lots of people say it works well to let it sit in the primary for a year. Apparently the bugs eat the dead yeast (dead yeast = bug nutrients so I've heard).

This recipe states that it is best to have it either in a better bottle the entire time because a good amount of O2 can get in that way, or do 30 days in a bucket and follow it up with a year of glass carboy. Buckets allow a lot of O2 through the pores but 30 days of that seems to be ideal for this one. Amanda explained that she got the best characteristics that way vs. glass carboy the entire time.

Hopefully that made sense, it's a little late.

 

[Zippox]

In general, is it necessary to add new yeast during bottling? If it is, which yeast and how's that done?

 

[bellmtbbq]

In general, is it necessary to add new yeast during bottling? If it is, which yeast and how's that done?

Champagne yeast costs 50-60 cents a packet and it's cheap insurance so you aren't left with two cases of flat beer.

 

[Zippox]

Just throw it in the bottom of the bottling bucket and siphon the beer from the carboy on top of it? No need to wait and can go straight to bottling?

 

[NateLTB]

I will be brewing this one in the next week or two. Waiting for my LHBS to get a new supply of Lambic yeast in. I'm very excited to brew this one, just need to figure out which sours to buy so I can toss in some dregs. Think some Russian Rivers and some Cascade Brewing. Thanks for the recipe Amanda! Cheers!

 

[AmandaK]

Just throw it in the bottom of the bottling bucket and siphon the beer from the carboy on top of it? No need to wait and can go straight to bottling?

Rehydrating a dried yeast would be your best bet, so you can get more even distribution. Pitching dry yeast in a bottling bucket won't gt much uniformity.

 

[rhoadsrage]

I was going to finally make the plunge into a lambic, and I ran across this recipe. This looks perfect. Thanks for posting.

 

[ocluke]

I would not make a starter for the sour mixes from Wyeast. In fact, I pitch one smack pack of Lambic Blend into 10 gallons and that seems to work for me.

One important note though, WY3763 is a great yeast, but it will not make a lambic. WY3728 is the only yeast from Wyeast that makes a good lambic. 3763 is more sour, cherry pie and fruitiness (think New Belgium's sours). 3728 is more funky, a softer sourness and overall more 'lambic-like' (think Cantillon/Boon).

I find it interesting that these commercial "lambic" blends seem to all have lacto in them, while every lambic brewer takes every step possible to eliminate lacto from affecting their beer (one of the reason for the massive aged hop addition). Lambic brewers attempt to get all of their lactic acid production from pedio.

 

[Brewitt]

This is an interesting discussion. I hope you dont mind a short hijack of the thread but I have some sour questions I have been trying to getting answers too. I don't know any sour brewers (well, I might know some sour brewers but none who brew sours). I am trying to figure out when is the right time to bottle and how much carbonation it should have. I have a sour going since August of last year. It started as a dilution of a strong dark ale wort fermented about half with a belgian ale yeast and then I added dregs from two bottles of lambic and a flemish red. I let that go for a month or two and then added 6 lbs of lightly crushed grapes off my vines to two gallons. I tasted it at about 3 and now at 6 mos. The first time it was nice and sour, good fruit and complex but had a lot of fusel alcohol taste at the end (at least I think that's what it was). At 6 mos most of that was gone and the brett flavors were developing. The sourness is still up front but blending with the complex fruit and other flavors. So, with that, how would you decide when to bottle?

 

[joshrosborne]

I would probably go with a combo of gravity and flavor. If the gravity is very, very near 1.00 and you're happy with the flavor, I don't see why you shouldn't be able to bottle. Just be careful with the gravity, because the Brett will keep munching until there's about no sugars left, which can lead to exploding bottles if you bottle too early.

 

[Zippox]

Logistics question here. I have 5 gallons of this in a bucket and I have yet to transfer it to a glass carboy. The plan is to lift the lid a little bit, add some tubing to the buckets spigot and turn it on. I have been planning on reusing the yeast cake at the bottom but I wonder what I should do if there is a hard pellicle? Do I just pour the new wort on top of it and shake it all up as I would a normal batch of beer?

 

[HarkinBanks]

Read the thread and I didn't see it answered, perhaps I missed it.

To the OP, did you bottle without any priming sugar and just use some of the natural stirred up yeast to let it carb up? Or did you add priming sugar?

 

[AmandaK]

To the OP, did you bottle without any priming sugar and just use some of the natural stirred up yeast to let it carb up? Or did you add priming sugar?

I usually don't add extra yeast, but it is cheap insurance. And yes, you always add priming sugar.

 

[bellmtbbq]

I usually don't add extra yeast, but it is cheap insurance. And yes, you always add priming sugar.

The guy who asked the question brings up a good point, Lambic producers never use priming sugar, but Americans are stuck on the idea. Cantilllon, for example, bottles with no sugar or yeast and let the bottles sit for six months in vaults. The yeast continues to work, providing carbonation. That's why guezes, containing some young lambic, are traditionally much more carbonated then straight lambics, which are typically older vintages with less residual sugar. thus, the BJCP guidelines

I do think for a straight lambic like this, I would use priming sugar. When I get to a gueze, however, I'll keep tradition and skip it.

 

[AmandaK]

When I get to a gueze, however, I'll keep tradition and skip it.

I tried that with my gueuze. It's still uncarbonated after 3 months in the bottle. Can't say I would do that again.

 

[ocluke]

The guy who asked the question brings up a good point, Lambic producers never use priming sugar, but Americans are stuck on the idea. Cantilllon, for example, bottles with no sugar or yeast and let the bottles sit for six months in vaults. The yeast continues to work, providing carbonation. That's why guezes, containing some young lambic, are traditionally much more carbonated then straight lambics, which are typically older vintages with less residual sugar. thus, the BJCP guidelines

I do think for a straight lambic like this, I would use priming sugar. When I get to a gueze, however, I'll keep tradition and skip it.

If you produce a lot of the exact same wort and have a resident microflora that you can count on to always attenuate your wort to the same gravity each and every time, this would be a fun way to bottle in the traditional method. However, for many homebrewers each batch is slightly (or a lot) different than the previous due to equipment changes, process variations or recipe tweaking. This makes it difficult to know exactly where the terminal gravity might end up, which would cause a lot of variation in carbonation levels after bottling, with some batches producing still pLambic and others producing bottle bombs. That's a bit of a risk for something you waited over a year to bottle.

 

[bellmtbbq]

If you produce a lot of the exact same wort and have a resident microflora that you can count on to always attenuate your wort to the same gravity each and every time, this would be a fun way to bottle in the traditional method. However, for many homebrewers each batch is slightly (or a lot) different than the previous due to equipment changes, process variations or recipe tweaking. This makes it difficult to know exactly where the terminal gravity might end up, which would cause a lot of variation in carbonation levels after bottling, with some batches producing still pLambic and others producing bottle bombs. That's a bit of a risk for something you waited over a year to bottle.

Yea, Im going to brew the same grain bill three times, use my house culture, etc. then it's just math to figure bout how many points of gravity you need

 

[Zippox]

Logistics question here. I have 5 gallons of this in a bucket and I have yet to transfer it to a glass carboy. The plan is to lift the lid a little bit, add some tubing to the buckets spigot and turn it on. I have been planning on reusing the yeast cake at the bottom but I wonder what I should do if there is a hard pellicle? Do I just pour the new wort on top of it and shake it all up as I would a normal batch of beer?

Sorry to quote myself but would anyone be able to help me decide a best option? I'll be brewing the second 5 gallons tomorrow.