Lagered Pilsner with "Green beer taste"

[Samuelouellette]

In mid December, I made a Pilsner with Wyeast 2206 Bavarian lager fermented at 48F. For three weeks it fermented and since I was gone on vacation, I couldn't do a D-rest when 75% of the fermentation was completed. When I came back,the F.G was already attained (O.G =1.042 F.G 1.011) but I still did a D-rest at 65F for 3 days. I tasted it and it seemed to have a bit of Acetaldehyde in it. Then I lagered in Primary for 2 weeks @ 32F, transferred to secondary and Relagered it for 2.5 weeks @32F. Today I transferred it to a keg and it still has a bit of Acetaldehyde/greeness to it.

Yeah, I know I should of let the D-rest a bit longer but I thought Lagering would of cleaned it up.

So would it be good to condition the keg at room temp for the yeast to clean up the Acetaldehyde?

Is it possible to relager like I did?

 

[JonM]

On my first ever lager, I messed up the starter and got massive acetaldehyde. I tried everything to get rid of it - I lagered, I warmed it (apparently acetaldehyde evaporates at something around 90F so I put it in the garage in July for a couple weeks). I tried and tried and tried and tried, and the acetaldehyde didn't go away. Ever.

It was my first dumper in 3 years. Mostly because of all the stuff that says acetaldehyde, in addition to tasting like ****, will produce massive hangovers.

I don't mean to bum you out, but unhappy lager yeast makes a mess that's difficult to clean up in my experience. Maybe others will have other ideas.

 

[Hex23]

Did you pitch warm or cold? Starter or none? Aeration?

 

[Hex23]

On my first ever lager, I messed up the starter and got massive acetaldehyde. I tried everything to get rid of it - I lagered, I warmed it (apparently acetaldehyde evaporates at something around 90F so I put it in the garage in July for a couple weeks). I tried and tried and tried and tried, and the acetaldehyde didn't go away. Ever.

It was my first dumper in 3 years. Mostly because of all the stuff that says acetaldehyde, in addition to tasting like ****, will produce massive hangovers.

I don't mean to bum you out, but unhappy lager yeast makes a mess that's difficult to clean up in my experience. Maybe others will have other ideas.

Agree. I don't think acetaldehyde can be cleared up with lagering. I think that normally requires yeast activity.

 

[Samuelouellette]

Ohhh that's a bummer...

I pitched at 44F let it rise naturally to 48F.

As for the yeast, I collected some trub from my previous lager (rauchbier) and stored it for 2 months. Then I made a small starter ( 300ml/11 oz) with hops and then I decanted it after two days of fermentation and pitched it in the newly made 2 Liter starter, decanted it and repitched in a 3 liter starter then decanted it after 1 day of fermentation and pitched the slurry in the wort.

The starters were agitated vigorously by hand.

 

[Hex23]

Ohhh that's a bummer...

I pitched at 44F let it rise naturally to 48F.

As for the yeast, I collected some trub from my previous lager (rauchbier) and stored it for 2 months. Then I made a small starter ( 300ml/11 oz) with hops and then I decanted it after two days of fermentation and pitched it in the newly made 2 Liter starter, decanted it and repitched in a 3 liter starter then decanted it after 1 day of fermentation and pitched the slurry in the wort.

The starters were agitated vigorously by hand.

Hmm. That's a pretty big starter. I can't imagine you underpitched. Sounds like you did everything right, assuming you did some form of wort aeration. I've had 2206 make some tart ester-like flavors before, even with a properly sized starter and initial cold pitch just like you did. I remember those esters seemed to developed in the keg though.

 

[Samuelouellette]

I find my Pilsner isn't so crisp as I hoped it would. I guess I can blame 2206 for that. Next time I'll use w34/70 or Wyeast 2124. Now that I am thinking JonM, do you think Kräusening would of helped your beer and mine? Maybe that's what I'll do if I see no improvement in conditioning at room temp for 2 weeks.

 

[JonM]

Whoops - guess I shouldn't have freaked you out. Sounds like you had a good pitch rate and, upon reading your posts again, it sounds like you have just a little bit of acetaldehyde, not a ton like I had. I bet some longer lagering/conditioning will help.

 

[mkeckjr]

I find my Pilsner isn't so crisp as I hoped it would. I guess I can blame 2206 for that. Next time I'll use w34/70 or Wyeast 2124.

This most likely your issue overall, both with acetaldehyde as well as "crispness". WY2206 is the Weihenstephan W-206 (same as WLP820) and you can perform a quick search to find anecdotes of how finicky this yeast is. It's known for long lag times in the first generation, early drop out, needing a larger pitch rate than normal lager yeasts, etc. In summary, it's a pain to deal with and you have to really treat it just right to get a clean ferment. Acetaldehyde is often attributed to early yeast dropout, or moving beer off of its yeast cake too soon, and because this yeast is known to quit a little early, I would say that is probably what you've experienced.

I see that you had a Rauchbier you did with it that came out decent, but I have rarely had positive experiences with this yeast, so I consider that good luck. In my opinion it's way too much of a hassle to deal with. I prefer to use any of the available W-34/70 offerings for most lagers, unless I want a little more residual sugar/maltiness (e.g. Bock) where I use WLP833. Both perform much for consistently for me.

 

[Samuelouellette]

Whoops - guess I shouldn't have freaked you out. Sounds like you had a good pitch rate and, upon reading your posts again, it sounds like you have just a little bit of acetaldehyde, not a ton like I had. I bet some longer lagering/conditioning will help.

Ya, I just got noticeable Acetaldehydes and a bit too sweet/ malty for my liking. The maltiness I can live with but I did not expect the acetaldehydes since I was not aiming for a budweiser! I will let it age in the keg at room temp to see if it fixes it, if not I might consider krausening or naturally carbing it.

Thanks again for the tips.

This most likely your issue overall, both with acetaldehyde as well as "crispness". WY2206 is the Weihenstephan W-206 (same as WLP820) and you can perform a quick search to find anecdotes of how finicky this yeast is. It's known for long lag times in the first generation, early drop out, needing a larger pitch rate than normal lager yeasts, etc. In summary, it's a pain to deal with and you have to really treat it just right to get a clean ferment. Acetaldehyde is often attributed to early yeast dropout, or moving beer off of its yeast cake too soon, and because this yeast is known to quit a little early, I would say that is probably what you've experienced.

I see that you had a Rauchbier you did with it that came out decent, but I have rarely had positive experiences with this yeast, so I consider that good luck. In my opinion it's way too much of a hassle to deal with. I prefer to use any of the available W-34/70 offerings for most lagers, unless I want a little more residual sugar/maltiness (e.g. Bock) where I use WLP833. Both perform much for consistently for me.

What is weird is my lag time was only 8 hours at 44F and it was chugging when I left for vacation. I tough 3 weeks of fermentation was plenty for a beer with an O.G of 1.042 but I guess YMMW. For the crispness I guess like you said that the yeast as I experienced the same thing in my Rauchbier but I didn't detect Acetaldehyde. I read a couple of forum posts and many seemed to be pleased with 2206 certainly for bocks or malty beers. Next time I will know! I might consider WY 2042 danish lager to see if it will lend a more crisp beer next time.

Thanks

 

[sky4meplease]

Out of curiosity what are your aeration methods and target D/O levels.

 

[osagedr]

I find my Pilsner isn't so crisp as I hoped it would. I guess I can blame 2206 for that. Next time I'll use w34/70 or Wyeast 2124. Now that I am thinking JonM, do you think Kräusening would of helped your beer and mine? Maybe that's what I'll do if I see no improvement in conditioning at room temp for 2 weeks.

I made a split batch pils recently with 2000 and 2278. Both are very good; much as I love 2124 I wouldn't select it for a Bohemian pils.

 

[philosofool]

For what it's worth, over pitching can be a source of acetalaldehyde. It's one of the few flaws that over-pitching promotes. Acetalaldehyde is carcinogenic and toxic, so I would try to clean it up before drinking.

How would I clean it up? I'd make another batch of wort, add this beer to that, and pitch some new yeast into it. Starting at 2.5% ABV or so, the yeast should be okay to fire up and start fermenting from a starter.

 

[Samuelouellette]

Out of curiosity what are your aeration methods and target D/O levels.

I was shaking the starter by hand every now and then, and for the main batch (3 gal) I was shaking also by hand for 15 min (not continuously ahhaha)

Not shure what you mean by D/O.

I made a split batch pils recently with 2000 and 2278. Both are very good; much as I love 2124 I wouldn't select it for a Bohemian pils.

Thanks for the advice, I think I'll go with WY 2042 since I want a dry and crisp lager.

For what it's worth, over pitching can be a source of acetalaldehyde. It's one of the few flaws that over-pitching promotes. Acetalaldehyde is carcinogenic and toxic, so I would try to clean it up before drinking.

How would I clean it up? I'd make another batch of wort, add this beer to that, and pitch some new yeast into it. Starting at 2.5% ABV or so, the yeast should be okay to fire up and start fermenting from a starter.

Ya I might of over pitched but at the time I didn't think I would of pitched too much for a lager fermented at 48F. ( the more the merrier? )

Ya kinda like Krausening, but for now I will just let it condition at room temp for a week and see if it improves.

 

[osagedr]

I was shaking the starter by hand every now and then, and for the main batch (3 gal) I was shaking also by hand for 15 min (not continuously ahhaha)

Not shure what you mean by D/O.

Dissolved Oxygen.

 

[Samuelouellette]

Unfortunately, I didn't/can't measure Dissolved oxygen but I taught shaking it would be sufficient for a relatively small beer.

 

[Samuelouellette]

Well I have good news my friends! My pilsner is tasting much better now since I conditioned it at room temperature for a week! The Acetaldehyde faded and now I will cool it and carb it.

So for home brewers experiencing the same problem, it is possible to condition your beer after short lagering.

 

[Samuelouellette]

My finished Pilsner!