Lager not lagery enough

[Bassman2003]

True, I would start with 3ml of lactic acid then. But the rough 1ml correlation is a useful way to ballpark.

 

[couchsending]

I would double check that. IIRC, she said (repeatedly) that Urquell brings their mash water down to 4.7-4.9. That would land the mash pH somewhere higher. And to make the 4.7-4.9 water pH information really useful, you'd also need to know the starting water profile (and grain bill).

Yeah this. There's no way they actually mash at 4.9. There would be literally no benefit to that at all. In fact it would be detrimental to a lot of necessary reactions.

 

[Spivey24]

Great timing for the thread, as I just produced another malty, sweet lager mess. I loves my dry ales, but can’t seem to get the lagers where I want them. I am definitely goin to try out many of these suggestions.

 

[Bilsch]

Look up Annie Johnson's presentation at the 2017 NHC on Chezk Pils and she says 4.9 mash pH is what Urkel does. I would also like to let everyone know that DO water can't be made by just boiling it. You need 15 psi at 250* for 15 min to get it. My rate in the USN had me not only running the evaps for making fresh water but also the deairating feed water tank.

I'm sorry but your statement that removing oxygen from water needs elevated temperature and pressure is simply incorrect. Oxygen solubility at 100C is zero. Not only that but the bubbles of water vapor that rise from the bottom of the kettle, or the heating elements, are essentially oxygen free and the concentration gradient will force any O2, or other dissolved gasses, to diffuse into that steam bubble and then be released to the surface.

Furthermore if you wanted to speed up this process you would apply a vacuum and not pressure. Standard lab practice for quickly de-aerating water is to simply boil it under reduced pressure.

 

[Dland]

Lots of good and interesting replies. Going to OP's original question; really good lagers take time. Time to ferment more slowly at lower temps, and time aged at somewhere around freezing. The beer clears (whirlflock helps a lot w that), the hops mellow...etc.

I've been running S-189 at 54F for the last many batches. New wort every week or every other week on yeast cake, in temp controlled conical w trub dump capabilities. It started out as dried yeast though, which has never let me down.

Most of my lagers have OG between 1.052-1.058. So some would not like them, ..will admit a hint of alcohol taste is fine w me, well chilled after a long day...

Keeping O2 out of finished or nearly finished beer, of any style, is crucial if one wants to enjoy the beer to it's fullest potential...of course..

 

[Yooper]

You might up the IBUs a little, Bo Pils are a little more bitter then regular Pils.

sorry but I had to mention that it's actually just the opposite. German pilsner have a firmer bitterness, while BoPils are softer.

5D German pilsner: Flavor: Medium to high hop bitterness dominates the palate and lingers into the aftertaste. Moderate to moderately-low grainy-sweet malt character supports the hop bitterness. Low to high floral, spicy, or herbal hop flavor. Clean fermentation profile. Dry to medium-dry, crisp, well-attenuated finish with a bitter aftertaste and light malt flavor. Examples made with water with higher sulfate levels often will have a low sulfury flavor that accentuates the dryness and lengthens the finish; this is acceptable but not mandatory. Some versions have a soft finish with more of a malt flavor, but still with noticeable hop bitterness and flavor, with the balance still towards bitterness


(BoPils has gone away, and been replace with Czech premium lager)
3B: Characteristic Ingredients: Soft water with low sulfate and carbonate content, Saazer-type hops, Czech malt, Czech lager yeast. Low ion water provides a distinctively soft, rounded hop profile despite high hopping rates. The bitterness level of some larger commercial examples has dropped in recent years, although not as much as in many contemporary German examples.

Style Comparison: German pilsner is lighter in body and color, drier, crisper, and more fully attenuated, with more of a lingering bitterness, and with higher carbonation than a Czech Premium Pale Lager.

 

[Gnomebrewer]

One more thing that hasn't been mentioned if it's hop flavour and aroma that's missing......
The oils in noble hops are quite delicate. Try to source fresh hops that are packaged in Nitrogen flushed bags. There's a big difference between hops from a bulk bag that has been sitting in your freezer for a few months versus a fresh pack of properly packaged hops. I notice a big difference between my LHBS noble hops (they open a 5Kg bag and package a few 100g packs at a time, no N2 flush or vacuum seal) versus a good online source (where they N2 flush then vac seal). Good quality hops > lots of hops.

 

[Witherby]

sorry but I had to mention that it's actually just the opposite. German pilsner have a firmer bitterness, while BoPils are softer.

5D German pilsner: Flavor: Medium to high hop bitterness dominates the palate and lingers into the aftertaste. Moderate to moderately-low grainy-sweet malt character supports the hop bitterness. Low to high floral, spicy, or herbal hop flavor. Clean fermentation profile. Dry to medium-dry, crisp, well-attenuated finish with a bitter aftertaste and light malt flavor. Examples made with water with higher sulfate levels often will have a low sulfury flavor that accentuates the dryness and lengthens the finish; this is acceptable but not mandatory. Some versions have a soft finish with more of a malt flavor, but still with noticeable hop bitterness and flavor, with the balance still towards bitterness


(BoPils has gone away, and been replace with Czech premium lager)
3B: Characteristic Ingredients: Soft water with low sulfate and carbonate content, Saazer-type hops, Czech malt, Czech lager yeast. Low ion water provides a distinctively soft, rounded hop profile despite high hopping rates. The bitterness level of some larger commercial examples has dropped in recent years, although not as much as in many contemporary German examples.

Style Comparison: German pilsner is lighter in body and color, drier, crisper, and more fully attenuated, with more of a lingering bitterness, and with higher carbonation than a Czech Premium Pale Lager.

You are entirely correct, but the word bitterness is a little misleading in this case, especially if you look at the numbers:
5D German Pils IBU: 22-40
3B Czech Premium Pale Lager IBU: 30-45

Bitterness may not be greater but the target IBUs are higher in the Czech pils and so upping the IBUs might be good advice. I like the way that Thomas Kraus-Weyermann and Horst Dornbusch put it in their book Dark Lagers:

"While the presence especially of calcium, magnesium, and sulfate ions in hard water accentuate the sensory perception of bitterness, their relative absence in soft water suppresses it. The fact is well expressed in an apropos German brewers' saying: "Weiches Wasser frisst Hopfen" (soft water devours hops). This is why a lager from Pilsen with, say, 45 IBU may taste much less hop-bitter than an equally hopped Pale Ale from Burton-upon-Trent, even though a laboratory analysis would return the same IBU value for both beers."

 

[Jako]

I feel you. I don't think I've ever had a homebrew made by anyone that tasted like a commercial lager. To me, hops have nothing to do with it, though - which is probably due to the fact that the lager I grew up on is Bavarian Helles, which is not all that hoppy. I rather find homebrew versions lacking in fermentation character. Lodo folks will say it's oxygen.
My uneducated guess is that it has to do with a difference in the fermentation process and the fact that commercial breweries ferment their lagers much colder than us homebrewers.

Cable car gives that "Beer" Flavor or Harvest from imperial. 100% i think its yeast strain related. i just made a beer with 34/70 it taste like a old yeast like English ale yet a lager idk.

 

[Jako]

I'm driving myself bonkers trying to find the article again, but I remember reading somewhere online that most of big name breweries in the US switched to pressure fermentation back in the 60s in order to crank out their product on a much shorter time table.

i have messed with a batch or two under pressure. makes a big difference moving beer. it ferments like a ale yet you don't need time for the yeast to eat up sulfer etc.

 

[scrap iron]

I was referring to regular Pils as in an American type. As Witherby said the soft water makes a difference. I just finished up a German Pils and the IBU was 35 compared to the Bo Pils that was 40. I added more Sulfate to the German water and the bitterness seems more. Granted there is not much difference between 35 and 40.
The OP should brew the way he prefers, no worries.

 

[couchsending]

Really stoked on Ireks malt. Probably won’t go back to using anything from Weyermann any time soon. I think there’s only one Homebrew outlet for it online so far but hopefully more in the future. Seek it out if you can.

 

[thehaze]

Really stoked on Ireks malt. Probably won’t go back to using anything from Weyermann any time soon. I think there’s only one Homebrew outlet for it online so far but hopefully more in the future. Seek it out if you can.

May I ask why you wouldn't go using Wyermann any time soon? Any experience you would share?

 

[Toxxyc]

I have gotten a few lagers really close. Hops, to me, make a HUGE difference in what I make. I tend to use pils malt, no pale malt, and hops like Saaz or Mittelfrueh with herbal, almost spicy notes for my lagers. I aim for around 18 IBUs, sometimes up to around 22 IBUs, depending on what I feel like. I get best results with a pilsner yeast, and after primary fermentation (low and slow, finished a bit higher), I tend to remove the beer from the yeast and lager for around 3 months at freezing.

This has gotten me the most "commercial-like" lagers yet, although I have to say they're nicer than commercial examples in most cases. I feel the beer has more character and substance to it, which I like.

 

[couchsending]

May I ask why you wouldn't go using Wyermann any time soon? Any experience you would share?

I just like the malt character of the Ireks better. Much more interesting to me. I’ve used Nothing but Weyermann pils for a while. Erecela, Barke, Floor Bohmeian mostly, and the Ireks stands out to me. And it’s less expensive.

I have only tried their Vienna and Pils malts but looking forward to trying more from.

 

[thehaze]

I just like the malt character of the Ireks better. Much more interesting to me. I’ve used Nothing but Weyermann pils for a while. Erecela, Barke, Floor Bohmeian mostly, and the Ireks stands out to me. And it’s less expensive.

I have only tried their Vienna and Pils malts but looking forward to trying more from.

Thank you. I've come across Ireks malt before, but never dared to try more of it ( I did try their Pilsner malt 4 years ago in a brew, but didn't pay much attention to it ). Maybe I should. I mostly only use Pilsner malt these days. I liked the Weyermann Barke Pilsner malt, but I feel its price point is way too high and it will detract me from buying it again. I also like Bestmalz Pilsner malt ( better than the Weyermann counterpart ), and it's usually cheaper than Weyermann and it has been my go-to for some time.

Glad to hear the Ireks malts " stand out " - I am looking forward to finding and using them.

 

[Broothru]

Thank you. I've come across Ireks malt before, but never dared to try more of it ( I did try their Pilsner malt 4 years ago in a brew, but didn't pay much attention to it ). Maybe I should. I mostly only use Pilsner malt these days. I liked the Weyermann Barke Pilsner malt, but I feel its price point is way too high and it will detract me from buying it again. I also like Bestmalz Pilsner malt ( better than the Weyermann counterpart ), and it's usually cheaper than Weyermann and it has been my go-to for some time.

Glad to hear the Ireks malts " stand out " - I am looking forward to finding and using them.

Similar experiences here. Brewed a lot with Rahr and Briess (ales) with Weyermann as my "go to" for lagers. I've used BestMalz on occasion and found it to be reliability good, though I had some serious difficulties with Malt Gems from Best due mostly to the fact it is pre-crushed and didn't play nice with my mash setup. IIRC, BestMalz is the favored maltster for most of Germany's commercial breweries.

Never brewed with Ireks, though @couchsending's comments have me wanting to try it.