Lager not lagery enough

[ABV Motleybrew]

Sulfate and saaz hops don't play nicely together- they get sort of harsh. For a BoPils, I'd definitely not add the sulfate, and get the chloride to only enough where the calcium is 40 ppm, give or take. The rest sounds good. I'd really consider reducing oxygen update on the hot side as well to get the famous "German lager" (or in this case, Czech) crispness and freshness.

I thought you needed a touch more sulphate to accentuate the hops?? would not adding sulphate just make it more malty?
Also with regard to hot side aeration, i've not really looked into this being theissue too much as i dont think i introduce much if any oxygen, I dont boil too vigorously, i just chuck the hop in and leave it, then put my chiller in and cool it, not sure what else i could do???

 

[Broothru]

Thanks, I've not bothered withpitch calculators but i always make 5ltr starters on a stir plate so I should hopefully be pitching enough yeast.

Are you crashing and decanting the overburden liquid to pitch only the yeast cake? Five liters of supernatant over 400~500 ml of yeast would seem like a lot of "spent" wort that might detract from the finished beer if it were pitched with the yeast.

 

[Yooper]

I thought you needed a touch more sulphate to accentuate the hops?? would not adding sulphate just make it more malty?
Also with regard to hot side aeration, i've not really looked into this being theissue too much as i dont think i introduce much if any oxygen, I dont boil too vigorously, i just chuck the hop in and leave it, then put my chiller in and cool it, not sure what else i could do???

No. You don't accent hops or malt with sulfate and chloride- that's a mistaken impression.
What you do with sulfate is enhance the feeling and perception of dryness. With a small amount, it doesn't even really do that as you need more than 60 ppm or so to make that happen. But what does happen is that sulfate and noble hops don't go well together, and it can give a harsh bitterness to Saaz/hallertauer hops instead of a firm bitterness. You do want firm bitterness with pilsners, but not harshness. The way to accent hops is actually simple- use more hops.
Chloride doesn't accent malt, either. What it does is provide a feeling of fullness to the mouthfeel, or a "roundness" of flavor. 50 ppm or so isn't really all that prominent, but no reason to go higher. Just bring your calcium to 40 ppm (plus or minus) to help prevent beerstone in the kettle, and you can use calcium chloride to do that.

Forget you ever ever heard the words "chloride/sulfate ratio" (or vice versa). The reason why is because 10 ppm of chloride and 20 ppm of sulfate is 1:2- but so low as to be meaningless. But 100 ppm of chloride and 200 ppm of sulfate is also 1:2- and will make a minerally beer.

Look at individual amounts, and keep them in the appropriate range for what you're brewing and forget about any ratio. Just like you can't add more pepper to erase too much salt, you can't just add more chloride to lower sulfate's impact.

 

[Broothru]

No. You don't accent hops or malt with sulfate and chloride- that's a mistaken impression.
What you do with sulfate is enhance the feeling and perception of dryness. With a small amount, it doesn't even really do that as you need more than 60 ppm or so to make that happen. But what does happen is that sulfate and noble hops don't go well together, and it can give a harsh bitterness to Saaz/hallertauer hops instead of a firm bitterness. You do want firm bitterness with pilsners, but not harshness. The way to accent hops is actually simple- use more hops.
Chloride doesn't accent malt, either. What it does is provide a feeling of fullness to the mouthfeel, or a "roundness" of flavor. 50 ppm or so isn't really all that prominent, but no reason to go higher. Just bring your calcium to 40 ppm (plus or minus) to help prevent beerstone in the kettle, and you can use calcium chloride to do that.

Forget you ever ever heard the words "chloride/sulfate ratio" (or vice versa). The reason why is because 10 ppm of chloride and 20 ppm of sulfate is 1:2- but so low as to be meaningless. But 100 ppm of chloride and 200 ppm of sulfate is also 1:2- and will make a minerally beer.

Look at individual amounts, and keep them in the appropriate range for what you're brewing and forget about any ratio. Just like you can't add more pepper to erase too much salt, you can't just add more chloride to lower sulfate's impact.

Excellent summation, Counselor!

 

[ABV Motleybrew]

I brew a lot of lagers, they are usually pretty good and win medals...but even still, they never are as good as a good lager brewery beers. For example, here in Mass, Notch is a fantastic brewery that makes word class German/Czech lagers. My Czech Dark is very good, has scored in mid 40's and I love it. But then every 6 months or so Notch puts theirs out and it just leaves my version in the dust. Sure they are using horizontal lagering tanks, spunding the beers, naturally carbonating and sometimes even open fermenting. I have spunded and naturally carbonated, but still not the same.

To the OP are you using tap water? Try using RO or Distilled and build up, you may have too many minerals, depending on style, for example, Czech lagers should have very little minerals. I brew Czech and pale German lagers with just around 25 ppm of Calcium, and 35-40 for SO4 and CL. You do not need 50 ppm of Calcium that is the minimum recommendation for ales for yeast health, due to the large yeast pitch and cool temps. Try to make sure your starters are at least 1.5 million cells/ml/degree Plato, Brewer's Friend Yeast Calculator is good for that. If you are going for crisp lagers, mash low, 148-149F. Use step mash for other lagers, something like 148F for 30, 159 for 30, mash out at 172 if you don't want to do decoction. Get the best malts you can, don't use like Briess Pilsner, use Weyermann Pils or even better Weyermann Barke Pilsner. Limit hop additions, don't go crazy with 5-6 hop additions like in ales...try something like FWH, 50 min and 20 min...or start of boil, 30 min, 20. If doing say an IPL, then add hops at knockout. There is a good formula for which hops to use when in lagers from the low oxygen brewing spreadsheet...will post it when I have a time as have a meeting in a few minutes.

This is great info thanks, I think maybe i'm settimg bar too high with my home brew equiptment, my lagers are nice beers but maybe comparing them to beer from 200 year old german breweries is a bit unrealistic.
Just to answer your questions, I'm using RO water but I'll definatley reduce the calcium as I always go for just over 50ppm. I make 5 ltr yeast starters but ignore calculators assuming it's enough, so i'll definately try one out this time. I've probably been mashing a little too hot, more like 151f, so i'll lower it. I cant do step mashes on my system but I will try a decoction at some point (i just dont have the extra time with the kids).
I'd interested in the speadsheet, but the link got blocked and doesn't work, any chance you could spell it out??
Thanks

 

[Spundit]

I am not sure what you mean by store bought lager? Many Commercial breweries filter their lagers. Coors uses old school Enzinger filters while most others use some sort of diatomaceous earth filter (i think). So perhaps that contributes to the flavor you are looking for.

Brooklyn lager is a big seller and it is dry hopped.. this style is somewhat popular with craft brewers and is sorta unique.

 

[twd000]

I'm driving myself bonkers trying to find the article again, but I remember reading somewhere online that most of big name breweries in the US switched to pressure fermentation back in the 60s in order to crank out their product on a much shorter time table.

I've seen more homebrewers switch to pressure fermentation and I've tried it a few times myself fermenting in a keg at 65F and 15 psi. It certainly finished faster, but still required many weeks of cold conditioning to really come together

 

[ABV Motleybrew]

I am not sure what you mean by store bought lager? Many Commercial breweries filter their lagers. Coors uses old school Enzinger filters while most others use some sort of diatomaceous earth filter (i think). So perhaps that contributes to the flavor you are looking for.

Brooklyn lager is a big seller and it is dry hopped.. this style is somewhat popular with craft brewers and is sorta unique.

Beer that you buy in a store, ie made by a professional brewery.

 

[ABV Motleybrew]

No. You don't accent hops or malt with sulfate and chloride- that's a mistaken impression.
What you do with sulfate is enhance the feeling and perception of dryness. With a small amount, it doesn't even really do that as you need more than 60 ppm or so to make that happen. But what does happen is that sulfate and noble hops don't go well together, and it can give a harsh bitterness to Saaz/hallertauer hops instead of a firm bitterness. You do want firm bitterness with pilsners, but not harshness. The way to accent hops is actually simple- use more hops.
Chloride doesn't accent malt, either. What it does is provide a feeling of fullness to the mouthfeel, or a "roundness" of flavor. 50 ppm or so isn't really all that prominent, but no reason to go higher. Just bring your calcium to 40 ppm (plus or minus) to help prevent beerstone in the kettle, and you can use calcium chloride to do that.

Forget you ever ever heard the words "chloride/sulfate ratio" (or vice versa). The reason why is because 10 ppm of chloride and 20 ppm of sulfate is 1:2- but so low as to be meaningless. But 100 ppm of chloride and 200 ppm of sulfate is also 1:2- and will make a minerally beer.

Look at individual amounts, and keep them in the appropriate range for what you're brewing and forget about any ratio. Just like you can't add more pepper to erase too much salt, you can't just add more chloride to lower sulfate's impact.

Interesting, i've only really learnt the term sulphate to chloride ratio in the past 12 months in my attemps to improve my lager. I have noticed some of my pilsners can be a bit harsh on the bitterness so I'm happy to take this on board. Infact i used to use spring water which was about 40 calcium with the sulphate and chlorides around 5-10ppm and i think they we're actually better than the RO lager im producing now, and this pribably explains why. Thanks for that, really really helpful!

 

[Yooper]

Interesting, i've only really learnt the term sulphate to chloride ratio in the past 12 months in my attemps to improve my lager. I have noticed some of my pilsners can be a bit harsh on the bitterness so I'm happy to take this on board. Infact i used to use spring water which was about 40 calcium with the sulphate and chlorides around 5-10ppm and i think they we're actually better than the RO lager im producing now, and this pribably explains why. Thanks for that, really really helpful!

You're welcome. If you want to learn a little more but not be overwhelmed with information, there is a three part article that starts here: Brewing Water for Beginners - Brewer's Friend that just explain what those salts do (and what they don't).

I found it very difficult to grasp water chemistry for a very long time, so for myself I really needed to sort of simplify it in my own mind. Just knowing that the salts are actually that- salts- helps me think of it as "seasoning", like in cooking.

I know this was mentioned earlier, but you don't need bicarbonate in these lagers so make sure you don't add baking soda, which raises pH. There is no actual target for bicarbonate, except that which is needed for pH assistance. I've seem some "targets" that call for baking soda, and then lactic acid to lower the bicarbonate that was just added, so make sure that your mash pH is in range (5.2-5.3) and MAYBE the calcium at 40 ppm or higher and really that's fine for BoPils.

 

[Alex4mula]

I made three lagers this winter. All were good but I’m glad I’m not the only one that feels they were not lagerly enough. Lots to learn here!

 

[Bilsch]

The biggest risk to making the lagers not "lagery" in my opinion is oxidation. Do everything possible to avoid hot side aeration and cold side oxidation, to get a brighter cleaner tasting lager.

↑↑ This ↑↑

 

[Bassman2003]

If you are looking for something to try, boil all of your strike water right before brewing and chill it down to dough in temps, then add your grain. This is the most basic way to combat hot side aeration - starting with water that has been de-aerated.

Better yet, add that water to the grain in an underletting fashion instead of adding the grain to the water.

Bilsch mentioned process and it is complex. German brewing practices are all about clean procedures like leaving "stuff" behind and having pristine wort in every phase of the brew day. What is your brew setup?

 

[Witherby]

I have been working on improving my lagers for the past few years and have added a number of the steps mentioned above (German malts, noble hops, large starters, pitch cold and ferment cold, step mashes--usually 144 to 158 to 168 and often with single or double decoctions, natural carbonation through spunding). Mostly I am am aiming for Franconian-style lagers, which are a little stronger and drier and hoppier than similar southern Bavarian styles. I do think the step mashes have improved the attenuation. I have tried many yeasts but mostly use WLP830, which I am happy with. I have soft water and I prefer adding gypsum to calcium chloride. I like the way it accentuates hops and the dryness. And hopefully you are watching your mash pH. Steve Holle (great lager brewer at KC Bier) recently commented that "pale lagers are notorious for finishing at a pH above 4.4, which can render them dull and lifeless."

The one thing that I don't think anyone has mentioned that I think has taken my lagers up to the next level is kräusening. When I brew I set aside a small jar of yeast from my starter and also a 2 liter soda bottle (sanitized) of chilled wort which goes into the freezer (the wort--not the yeast). When the beer is done fermenting I thaw the leftover wort and pitch the saved yeast and basically make a fresh mini starter. When it is at full kräusen (hence the name) I add it to a keg and transfer the beer on top of that (and dry hop then if you want--go ahead, it has been done in Germany a lot more than people think. See Hop Queries: Hopfenstopfen (dry hopping) goes back more than a century in Germany ). I let it naturally carbonate at that stage at cellar temps with a spunding valve and then chill and lager for at least a month. The kräusening aids attenuation, cleans up off flavors, can add a little sulfur, and turns "green" homebrew lager into proper lager.

 

[couchsending]

OG should really never get above 1.048. You will get much less malt character with a 4.7-5% beer that starts at 1.046.

Minimize your hot side aeration. Ideally preboil your water at least and try underletting and minimize stirring.

What is your boil off rate? You don’t want an intense boil. Just above a simmer is ideal. Minimal amount of time to remove all DMS but that’s it. If you’re at sea level 70 minutes is fine. You can even keep the lid partially on for the first 40 to help reduce the heat applied to the kettle. What’s your setup?

There’s no real need to pressure ferment unless you’re fermenting lager yeast really warm. Pitch cold and ferment cold. Pitch at 44-46 and don’t let it get above 50, unless you’re using the Augustiner strain. If you’re really concerned about diacetyl and think you need a D rest you don’t really need to get above 54. If you pitch enough yeast and aerate, well lagers can finish in 6-7 days at below 50 no problem. How are you aerating?

Homebrew calculators tend to underestimate the amount of yeast. Aim for a pitch rate of at least 2m/ml/*plato if fermenting cold.

Most traditional German or Czech breweries aren’t adding hops much past 20 minutes left in the boil. Yes there are exceptions but try FW or 90/70, 40 then 20. With the largest addition being at 40. There are aspects to Noble hops that need to be boiled off actually. Don’t think of your hop additions like you would for an IPA. The quality of a lot of noble hops, especially the Homebrew level stuff, is really really bad. The hop processing equipment and mentality in the traditional hop growing regions of Europe weirdly is not quite up to the level as it is in other countries when it comes to preserving the aromatic properties of the hops. They’re just not treated as well and tend to degrade rather quickly. Lately I’ve actually been impressed by the quality of the hops coming out of France and Slovenia. If you can find some Aramis I’d highly recommend it.

Personally I don’t think dry yeast works that well for lagers. The liquid variants of 34/70 are hard to beat. 2124/830/global. My favorite is the Andech’s strain but it’s a seasonal from the few yeast companies that offer it.

Step mashing would go a long ways if you could do it. 145/154/162/168 is my ideal regime. Sometimes skipping the 154. A single Decoction to take you from 145-162 would be the best/easiest route if you were going to do it.

How are you purging your kegs and transfer lines? The first thing to go with even the tiniest o2 pickup is hop aroma.

You mention you’re measuring pH which is good but mash pH isn’t the only time you should measure. I’d recommend mashing a bit higher, 5.4ish. Aim for a kettle full pH of around 5.4. Higher kettle pH results in faster DMS conversion but much over 5.4 and bitterness starts to get a bit harsh. Always adjust pH within the last 10 minutes of the boil to near 5.1, with lactic acid or for true lager character Sour wort. If you’re using kettle finings the optimal pH is 5.1 and always add them in the last 5 minutes as they can denature. Lowering the pH helps the yeast start fermenting faster and can lower your final beer pH which can help with the perception of crispness. Ideally somewhere in the 4.3 range for final beer pH.

Last but not least krausening and/or spunding. If you are krausening ideally with the next batch of beer but you need to brew pretty regularly to do that. There’s a krausening calculator on brewersfriend and if you have a scale you can do it by weight to avoid opening the keg.

 

[VikeMan]

There's lots of good advice in this thread. Sadly, I'm not sure if anything can turn back the tide of:

 

[ABV Motleybrew]

I've seen more homebrewers switch to pressure fermentation and I've tried it a few times myself fermenting in a keg at 65F and 15 psi. It certainly finished faster, but still required many weeks of cold conditioning to really come together

I've been experimenting with pressure fermentation using my fermzilla, done different temps from 12-18c (53-63f) and at different pressure from 15-30 PSI. I've not really noticed a difference with different temps or pressures, they all seen to produce decent beer, which I suppose supports the theory that you can ferment lager warm under pressure. I've gone back to non pressure vessels though to try and get a more crisp lager taste, but the beer seems to come out exactly the same regardless.

 

[TenaCJed]

Just to push the point on hot side aeration, it is the ENTIRE process from start of the day to the boil, not just the boil. LODO is removing oxygen for the entire process up until pitching yeast, then add oxygen .

I have not done that, as I am not setup for that, but I do at least underlet in my MLT and I have done the boil and then chill to mash temp the water.

 

[ABV Motleybrew]

Are you crashing and decanting the overburden liquid to pitch only the yeast cake? Five liters of supernatant over 400~500 ml of yeast would seem like a lot of "spent" wort that might detract from the finished beer if it were pitched with the yeast.

Thanks for the suggestion, but yeah I decant all the 'supernatant' and just pitch the slurry. I did once pitch the whole thing but then stupidly oxygenated the wort with 5ltrs of 'beer's in it, then I realised what I'd done and panicked for 2 months that it would be oxidized, in the end it surprisingly wasnt, the beer came out fine.

 

[VikeMan]

I have not done that, as I am not setup for that, but I do at least underlet in my MLT and I have done the boil and then chill to mash temp the water.

^ and for those who can't/won't underlet, a judicious addition Na Meta to scavenge O2 is an option.

 

[Broothru]

OG should really never get above 1.048. You will get much less malt character with a 4.7-5% beer that starts at 1.046.

Minimize your hot side aeration. Ideally preboil your water at least and try underletting and minimize stirring.

What is your boil off rate? You don’t want an intense boil. Just above a simmer is ideal. Minimal amount of time to remove all DMS but that’s it. If you’re at sea level 70 minutes is fine. You can even keep the lid partially on for the first 40 to help reduce the heat applied to the kettle. What’s your setup?

There’s no real need to pressure ferment unless you’re fermenting lager yeast really warm. Pitch cold and ferment cold. Pitch at 44-46 and don’t let it get above 50, unless you’re using the Augustiner strain. If you’re really concerned about diacetyl and think you need a D rest you don’t really need to get above 54. If you pitch enough yeast and aerate, well lagers can finish in 6-7 days at below 50 no problem. How are you aerating?

Homebrew calculators tend to underestimate the amount of yeast. Aim for a pitch rate of at least 2m/ml/*plato if fermenting cold.

Most traditional German or Czech breweries aren’t adding hops much past 20 minutes left in the boil. Yes there are exceptions but try FW or 90/70, 40 then 20. With the largest addition being at 40. There are aspects to Noble hops that need to be boiled off actually. Don’t think of your hop additions like you would for an IPA. The quality of a lot of noble hops, especially the Homebrew level stuff, is really really bad. The hop processing equipment and mentality in the traditional hop growing regions of Europe weirdly is not quite up to the level as it is in other countries when it comes to preserving the aromatic properties of the hops. They’re just not treated as well and tend to degrade rather quickly. Lately I’ve actually been impressed by the quality of the hops coming out of France and Slovenia. If you can find some Aramis I’d highly recommend it.

Personally I don’t think dry yeast works that well for lagers. The liquid variants of 34/70 are hard to beat. 2124/830/global. My favorite is the Andech’s strain but it’s a seasonal from the few yeast companies that offer it.

Step mashing would go a long ways if you could do it. 145/154/162/168 is my ideal regime. Sometimes skipping the 154. A single Decoction to take you from 145-162 would be the best/easiest route if you were going to do it.

How are you purging your kegs and transfer lines? The first thing to go with even the tiniest o2 pickup is hop aroma.

You mention you’re measuring pH which is good but mash pH isn’t the only time you should measure. I’d recommend mashing a bit higher, 5.4ish. Aim for a kettle full pH of around 5.4. Higher kettle pH results in faster DMS conversion but much over 5.4 and bitterness starts to get a bit harsh. Always adjust pH within the last 10 minutes of the boil to near 5.1, with lactic acid or for true lager character Sour wort. If you’re using kettle finings the optimal pH is 5.1 and always add them in the last 5 minutes as they can denature. Lowering the pH helps the yeast start fermenting faster and can lower your final beer pH which can help with the perception of crispness. Ideally somewhere in the 4.3 range for final beer pH.

Last but not least krausening and/or spunding. If you are krausening ideally with the next batch of beer but you need to brew pretty regularly to do that. There’s a krausening calculator on brewersfriend and if you have a scale you can do it by weight to avoid opening the keg.

^^^What HE said^^^

Exactly the advice I've been using lately, and double-down agree on Andechs strain of lager yeast. WLP-835X is very good, but a Vault release. I've got some Andechs from a propagation lab in Colorado that I grew into a 500ml cake 2 weeks ago that I'll bring to a 5L krausen before pitching after we get back from the beach.

 

[exit8]

You mention you’re measuring pH which is good but mash pH isn’t the only time you should measure. I’d recommend mashing a bit higher, 5.4ish. Aim for a kettle full pH of around 5.4. Higher kettle pH results in faster DMS conversion but much over 5.4 and bitterness starts to get a bit harsh. Always adjust pH within the last 10 minutes of the boil to near 5.1, with lactic acid or for true lager character Sour wort.

What is the best way to determine the amount of lactic needed at the end to get down to a specific pH? Is it just a matter of trial and error or can I estimate close enough by seeing how much lactic I need to add in Bru'n water to drop the pH from 5.4 to 5.1? As an example, the pilsner I am planning on brewing has a mash pH of 5.40 and to get it to 5.1 Bru'n water comes up with an addition of 4ml of 88% lactic acid.

 

[couchsending]

What is the best way to determine the amount of lactic needed at the end to get down to a specific pH? Is it just a matter of trial and error or can I estimate close enough by seeing how much lactic I need to add in Bru'n water to drop the pH from 5.4 to 5.1? As an example, the pilsner I am planning on brewing has a mash pH of 5.40 and to get it to 5.1 Bru'n water comes up with an addition of 4ml of 88% lactic acid.

Pretty sure there’s a spreadsheet out there that calculates it for you. I’ve never used it however.

It takes a bit of trial and error as your boil pH will drop naturally during the boil but the amount it drops depends on a bunch of different variables. I’ll usually pull a sample at 20 and cool it and go from there. The amount to move pH in the mash X amount does end up being pretty similar to the amount to move pH in the boil.

 

[scrap iron]

I just finished a nice Bo Pilsner that I used the Pseudo BO-Pils water from the Bru n wtr spread sheet.
I used Wyeast 2001 PC and Saaz hops at 60 ,30, 10 and 0 mins to 40 IBUs. Lagered for 4 weeks and it came out great. The only thing was the yeast had a hard time dropping out but was better after Lager.
I used 30 ppm calcium, 35ppm chloride and 16ppm sulfate with enough Latic Acid to get mash to 5.4 ph. I then reduced ph to under 5.2 towards the end of the boil with more Latic Acid.
This is the first time I have used a water profile this minimal but it turned out great.
You might up the IBUs a little, Bo Pils are a little more bitter then regular Pils.

 

[Bassman2003]

What is the best way to determine the amount of lactic needed at the end to get down to a specific pH? Is it just a matter of trial and error or can I estimate close enough by seeing how much lactic I need to add in Bru'n water to drop the pH from 5.4 to 5.1? As an example, the pilsner I am planning on brewing has a mash pH of 5.40 and to get it to 5.1 Bru'n water comes up with an addition of 4ml of 88% lactic acid.

I have found a rough correlation of 1ml of lactic equals about .1 pH unit for my 5.5 gallon batches. So 4ml of lactic sounds like a great place to start!

 

[hottpeper13]

Look up Annie Johnson's presentation at the 2017 NHC on Chezk Pils and she says 4.9 mash pH is what Urkel does. I would also like to let everyone know that DO water can't be made by just boiling it. You need 15 psi at 250* for 15 min to get it. My rate in the USN had me not only running the evaps for making fresh water but also the deairating feed water tank.

 

[TenaCJed]

Camden Tablets also help, at least I believe that I read that.

 

[Bassman2003]

Look up Annie Johnson's presentation at the 2017 NHC on Chezk Pils and she says 4.9 mash pH is what Urkel does. I would also like to let everyone know that DO water can't be made by just boiling it. You need 15 psi at 250* for 15 min to get it. My rate in the USN had me not only running the evaps for making fresh water but also the deairating feed water tank.

I would like to know more about this. I think it is a matter of relative effectiveness. At boiling point, the solubility of Oxygen is zero, so naturally it will be driven off leading up to the boiling point and at the boiling point. What you are describing sounds like absolute sterile conditions, which would eliminate everything. For all intensive purposes, boiling strike water is effective and easy to accomplish with homebrew setups.

 

[VikeMan]

I have found a rough correlation of 1ml of lactic equals about .1 pH unit for my 5.5 gallon batches. So 4ml of lactic sounds like a great place to start!

But keep in mind that if the mash was at 5.4, it will naturally be at something lower than 5.4 at the end of the boil, so if I were "rule of thumb" adjusting, I wouldn't use mash pH as the starting point without accounting for an at least estimated boil drop.

 

[VikeMan]

Look up Annie Johnson's presentation at the 2017 NHC on Chezk Pils and she says 4.9 mash pH is what Urkel does.

I would double check that. IIRC, she said (repeatedly) that Urquell brings their mash water down to 4.7-4.9. That would land the mash pH somewhere higher. And to make the 4.7-4.9 water pH information really useful, you'd also need to know the starting water profile (and grain bill).