Lager.... lost :(

[tommysauder]

Ok so I have been making AMAZING ales, wheat beers, stouts etc...

Finally got a controlled temp fridge setup and did a lager. Techniques and cleaning are the same, but the keg is new just FYI.

Mashed for 90 minutes at approx 150F. Gravity looked good at 1.051. Did a long boil (90 minutes) and a good rolling one. Where I may have made a mistake was with the cooling. Cooled it in the bucket in the fridge but it took 2 days to get to temp. Pitched yeast (2 packets w34/70) and fermented at 50F for 3 weeks. Transferred to keg and took grav reading (1.009). Tasted sample.... I thought tastes kind of buttery (dreading DMS I almost had a panic attack). Let it carb/lager in the fridge at 32f for 2 weeks and pulled 500ml out to get rid of the initial crap bulled from the bottom, then filled a pint glass which I am drinking from.

At 32F why are there still very small floaties in the beer is question #1. Question #2 it has a REALLY odd taste at the back of the tongue and an odd smell. Mouth doesnt feel slick from what I read DMS causes but it just tastes plain old BAD. Almost repulsive. And even after the beer sitting in my glass for 30 minutes the floaties are in like a suspension.

Another problem. I harvested the slurry for a corn / 2 row mix that is fermenting at 55-58F. Is it going to have the same taste? or should I take it after a week and put it to room temperature? I'm sorry I can't explain the taste. I like butter and it doesn't taste like butter. Doesn't taste like plastic. I've read the bandaid taste/smell and I'm leaning more towards that?

Confused as the only thing I did wrong was let it cool for that much of an extended time. If I pull the keg from the fridge and let it sit at 60f for a few weeks will it clear? Or should i dump, bleach, star san and fill with a yummy ale?

 

[tommysauder]

Dont get me wrong, I can drink it to get rid of it as punishment for making such a bad beer and I would take acetaldehyde over this taste.

 

[tommysauder]

and also to maybe help diagnose the problem, after primary while racking to keg, there were like iceburgs of yeast like floater on top... not sure if that helps???

 

[dannyhawkins]

Maybe diacetyl? With a lager the most common fermentation schedule I have seen around here is:
1-2 weeks primary fermentation at 50*F
1-3 days raised to room temperature for diacetyl rest
3-6 weeks lagering at 30-40*F
Diacetyl can have a buttery taste as you first described among other things.
DMS has a "cooked corn" flavor IIRC.

 

[tommysauder]

Took keg out f the fridge and put n basement (approx 60) and the other lager primary beside it will let them both sit For 3 weeks then lager for 2 months. Hopefully whatever nastyness that was will Be corrected

 

[rgauthier20420]

Don't dump it! If you've got the keg to spare, put it away like you've done and let it sit. It's likely time will help this brew come around.

 

[Black Island Brewer]

Took keg out f the fridge and put n basement (approx 60) and the other lager primary beside it will let them both sit For 3 weeks then lager for 2 months. Hopefully whatever nastyness that was will Be corrected

I recently learned that a rule of thumb for lagers was, after fermenting and doing a diacetyl rest, to lager for 1 week for every degree plato. 1.051 is 12+ Plato, so 3 months of lagering to clean up the beer.

 

[rgauthier20420]

I recently learned that a rule of thumb for lagers was, after fermenting and doing a diacetyl rest, to lager for 1 week for every degree plato. 1.051 is 12+ Plato, so 3 months of lagering to clean up the beer.

Never heard of this. Guess I should start brewing my lagers for next summer then....

 

[pjj2ba]

Maybe diacetyl? With a lager the most common fermentation schedule I have seen around here is:
1-2 weeks primary fermentation at 50*F
1-3 days raised to room temperature for diacetyl rest
3-6 weeks lagering at 30-40*F
Diacetyl can have a buttery taste as you first described among other things.
DMS has a "cooked corn" flavor IIRC.

Danny is correct, if it is buttery, then it is diacetyl. The schedule he outlined is pretty typical. I'm usually 6-8 weeks grain to glass

I find it takes a lot more the 500 ml to get a yeast free lager when first tapping a keg. More like 4-5 pints - the faster your pour rate, the longer you'll get yeast. I have a sampling picnic tap that pours very slow, and if I use that I can quickly get a clean pint, but on my regular taps, it takes longer as the faster pour creates more turbulence around the bottom of the diptube resulting in a larger area of yeast to clear from around the dip tube

 

[motobrewer]

That is wrong. Noonan suggests one week for every 2 degrees Plato. 1.051 = 12.3P so about 6 weeks.

 

[Black Island Brewer]

That is wrong. Noonan suggests one week for every 2 degrees Plato. 1.051 = 12.3P so about 6 weeks.

Awesome, thanks!

 

[Begin2Brew]

Most of the beers I brew are lagers. Diacetyl is most likely the culprit here. Fermentation should have been 5-10 days at 50F then a three day rest at 60-65F. Fermentation should be about 75% complete when raising the temps up for the D-rest.

This is a bit different that what I do. I will still ferment at 50F for 5-10 days but will pull the beer out of the fermentation chamber and let it sit in the basement at 64F for a few weeks. Then I'll cold crash it at 34F for 3 days, keg and lager for a minimum of 8 weeks. The higher the OG the longer I lager. I have never had any issues with Diacetyl with this process.

 

[motobrewer]

Most of the beers I brew are lagers. Diacetyl is most likely the culprit here. Fermentation should have been 5-10 days at 50F then a three day rest at 60-65F. Fermentation should be about 75% complete when raising the temps up for the D-rest.

This is a bit different that what I do. I will still ferment at 50F for 5-10 days but will pull the beer out of the fermentation chamber and let it sit in the basement at 64F for a few weeks. Then I'll cold crash it at 34F for 3 days, keg and lager for a minimum of 8 weeks. The higher the OG the longer I lager. I have never had any issues with Diacetyl with this process.

Are you pitching at 50F as well?

 

[beersk]

Best to pitch into lagers a couple degrees below planned fermentation temperature. I usually pitch in the 46-48F range if I plan to ferment around 48-50F.
Diacetyl was the first thing I thought when I read the OP. I've never had diacetyl with 34/70, but I'm thinking perhaps it was caused due to underpitching. If you didn't rehydrate your yeast, you likely underpitched. I rehydrate 2 packets for beers in the 1.050 range. That or you under aerated. It's not as important for ales, but for lagers, O2 is crucial.

I usually ferment around 10-14 days at 48-50F, then raise to 60F or so for a few days, then lager at 38F for 4-6 weeks for normal gravity beers. Around 6-8 weeks grain to glass for most normal strength lagers. Worth the wait!

 

[tommysauder]

Yea so a couple things I most likely did wrong... pitched cold, but straight from the pack 34/70 (2 packs) and didn't rehydrate. Left to ferment at 50f for 3 weeks, then kegged and crash cooled to 32 for 1 1/2 weeks.

I've never tasted diacetyl before, but I almost puked after trying to finish the pint. Now I just had a Molson Canadian, and i tasted that slight taste that was amplified in my lager.

Think they are save-able if I let them sit for a couple weeks in 60F temp? Then lager them for 2 months?

 

[Cyclman]

I would think you could also do a small starter of the same yeast (oxygenate the starter but not the beer), pitch it at high kraeusen, and strong, healthy yeast might help remove the diacetyl.

If it's that bad, for a few bucks, it's worth the try.

Not sure if you'd have to lager it again, I'd cold crash it then taste it after a week.

IMO, stirplate / starter + O2 injection + diacetyl rest do a LOT to make lagers super clean. After all that time, you want your beer to be great!

 

[tommysauder]

I just never thought diacetyl would be that disgusting....

I oxygenate by letting the cooled wort free fall from a ball valve about 4 feet into a bucket (very small stream) so I thought that would have been plenty....... I'll give it 2 weeks in the keg and re-taste. If it is still there I will pitch a starter (would us-05 work?). And what should I use for the starter, LME?

 

[motobrewer]

i usually use DME for starters.

i think the main issue here was underpitching. Sprinkling packs on top of 50F wort probably killed >75% of the yeast. So even though you had two you probably pitched less than 1/2 a pack of viable yeast.

fermentis recommends re-hydrating in 73F water.

 

[VladOfTrub]

Diacetyl is a subject beaten to death. Do a diacetyl test first, if there's no diacetyl in the test sample, there's no reason to do the rest.

 

[D_Nyholm]

Diacetyl is a subject beaten to death. Do a diacetyl test first, if there's no diacetyl in the test sample, there's no reason to do the rest.

What are the procedures for a diacetyl test?

 

[tgmartin000]

Ok so I have been making AMAZING ales, wheat beers, stouts etc...

Finally got a controlled temp fridge setup and did a lager. Techniques and cleaning are the same, but the keg is new just FYI.

Mashed for 90 minutes at approx 150F. Gravity looked good at 1.051. Did a long boil (90 minutes) and a good rolling one. Where I may have made a mistake was with the cooling. Cooled it in the bucket in the fridge but it took 2 days to get to temp. Pitched yeast (2 packets w34/70) and fermented at 50F for 3 weeks. Transferred to keg and took grav reading (1.009). Tasted sample.... I thought tastes kind of buttery (dreading DMS I almost had a panic attack). Let it carb/lager in the fridge at 32f for 2 weeks and pulled 500ml out to get rid of the initial crap bulled from the bottom, then filled a pint glass which I am drinking from.

At 32F why are there still very small floaties in the beer is question #1. Question #2 it has a REALLY odd taste at the back of the tongue and an odd smell. Mouth doesnt feel slick from what I read DMS causes but it just tastes plain old BAD. Almost repulsive. And even after the beer sitting in my glass for 30 minutes the floaties are in like a suspension.

Another problem. I harvested the slurry for a corn / 2 row mix that is fermenting at 55-58F. Is it going to have the same taste? or should I take it after a week and put it to room temperature? I'm sorry I can't explain the taste. I like butter and it doesn't taste like butter. Doesn't taste like plastic. I've read the bandaid taste/smell and I'm leaning more towards that?

Confused as the only thing I did wrong was let it cool for that much of an extended time. If I pull the keg from the fridge and let it sit at 60f for a few weeks will it clear? Or should i dump, bleach, star san and fill with a yummy ale?

Taking 2 days to cool is going to cause problems. The one beer I took over 2 hours to cool was full of DMS. Tasted like corn. After 2 years, it aged out a little. Cooling quickly is important.

 

[vNmd]

What are the procedures for a diacetyl test?

I have never done this, but there was a thread someone asked the same thing.

 

[tommysauder]

quick update: Took both out of their temps (lager that was in keg @ 32F is now in 60-62F and lager fermenting at 55 is in same temp 60-62).

Put the fermenting lager a couple days ago into the fridge and prayed. Took a gravity sample today, perfect at 1.009. Tasted it and thought I was going to be in the same boat because some of the slurry was used from the other kegged lager....

It tastes good! I'm not sure if carbonation makes diacetyl taste come out more, but this sample at 32F tasted AWESOME!

Just put the kegged lager in the fridge now and hoping that it turns out ok too!

 

[tommysauder]

ok so pulled a sample of the nasty butter keg and it is still nasty. I'm assuming carbing and crash cooling to lager temps killed all the yeast. No point in buying yeast and adding it to try and clean it. Would rather use yeast on a nice ale. That being said, my second lager made with the slurry from the first that DID get a proper diacetyl rest before carbing/lagering tastes amazing.

Time to dump and refill!